India's Top Gun's head for the U.S.

[Indus]

Asia Times News June 24, 2004

India's top guns head for the US

NEW DELHI - A 200-strong contingent of personnel of the Indian Air Force (IAF) is at the moment headed for Alaska, United States, in what is going to be the first-ever joint Indo-US air exercise on American soil. Amid all the backslapping and camaraderie that has become a feature of Indo-US military exercises that are a regular occurrence in India now, there is a much broader game plan. While the IAF explores uncharted areas, the occasion is also a milestone in longer-term US intentions to reach out to potential military allies outside Europe and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), and in the current context, possible deployment of troops to Iraq.

The facts and firsts
Top gun Indian pilots, young flight lieutenants, airmen and assorted crew took off for their 19,750 kilometer journey to Alaska from air force base Ambala, in the state of Haryana on Tuesday morning in six Jaguar strike aircraft, two IL-76s transport aircraft and two IL-78 tankers. They are to participate in the annual multinational air exercises code-named Operation Cooperative Cope Thunder that take place in Alaska with allies such as the United Kingdom, Germany, Japan, Canada and South Korea. This is the first time that India has been invited to a US air exercise, making it the first-ever foray of IAF planes outside Indian territory for such an event.

It is also the farthest the IAF has ever flown; and the first time the giant IL-78s tankers are being exposed in the West. The air convoy will make the passage in stages, stopping in Qatar, Egypt, Italy, and Portugal, before making the trans-Atlantic flight with a layover in the Azores Islands. The group will enter Canada on July 2 and reach Alaska on July 7 for exercises that are slated to begin on July 15.

In a statement an IAF spokesperson said, "The IAF has never been on such a journey and we just want to be careful getting our planes and equipment across safely. This is a big honor and a big debut for us." The Alaska trip comes in the wake of high praise that has been showered by the US Air Force (USAF) on the IAF, which participated in joint exercises in Gwalior this February. The IAF threw open its top-of-the-line fighter planes, including the Sukhois and Mirages, at the USAF in Gwalior and Jaguars that are of relatively older vintage.

While the Indian government has sought to downplay any larger message in the Alaska exercise, observers here see the first-ever invitation by the USAF as an attempt to expand its sphere of influence, given the current imbroglio over Iraq. While there is no gainsaying the fact that the exchanges will go a long way in informing India about latest technologies, as well as a first-hand knowledge of F-16 fighter planes that form the main arsenal of Pakistan, analysts also warn that India must guard against a new American strategy to take NATO beyond the confines of Europe, where ties between Washington and some of its allies are not on the best of terms over Iraq.

One comment reads: "Expanding NATO with new members outside Europe, while diluting its 'North Atlantic' charter, is evidently aimed at enhancing American influence at the expense of its European allies. As it is, the US has succeeded in getting NATO into Afghanistan, the first time the 55-[member] organization has taken up duties outside Europe. Next step: Iraq. This is where India could come in handy. Major NATO countries of Europe are opposed to its deployment in Iraq, but Japan has already chipped in with troops. An expanded NATO could deploy more easily in Iraq. There is also talk of bringing in several central Asian and Arab countries into the NATO fold."

The situation in Iraq is in flux with an interim Iraqi government being formed under United Nations auspices, though there is still a way to go before any figment of normalcy returns in the country. That India is under continued pressure from the US to supply troops is borne out by the fact that Foreign Minister Natwar Singh, immediately after a meeting with US Secretary of State Collin Powell earlier this month, said that India would re-look and discuss the issue in the changed circumstance of a UN resolution. Singh's statement caused a furor among political parties in India. The very next day he issued another statement that a re-think in no way changes India's current stance.

Another comment says, "For India, the larger issues are tricky. It does not want to play itself into blocs. At the same time, engagement with alliances as far apart as NATO and ASEAN [Association of Southeast Asian Nations] is inviting, and flattering to its geostrategic ambitions. In the past, New Delhi has been scathing about NATO's expanding role outside Europe. It wasn't too long back that it accused the organization of an increasing tendency to "usurp the power and function of the UN Security Council", and said its propensity to extend its areas of operation "is a source of concern to all countries, big and small".

Indeed, officials here say that India is more than likely to bide its time and study the situation till the November elections are over in the US and any decision concerning the two countries will strictly remain on pragmatic grounds of cost and benefit. However, observers also aver that given the superpower status of the US, it would be useful for India to weigh its decisions properly, given that the US is seeking to draw India into a wider bloc of nations.

At the same time, India will have to be careful not to get caught in the tricky "good versus evil" definition that is driving the army of neo-conservatives that crowd President George W Bush's inner circle. Geostrategic advantages apart, the political cost of failure on this front could be immense. As the thinking here is, will a Madrid-style terror attack, with its subsequent political fallout, happen in the US? Till then, India will be grabbing any opportunity that comes its way, such as military exercises, where no body bags are involved.

LINK: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FF24Df04.html

[Londo Molari]

History lesson:

India tests nukes and then Pakistan tests nukes in return.

As a result, Pakistan get slapped with sanctions, aircraft are withheld, and no spares for existing aircraft.

While India is offered the F-16, and their pilots get to train with the U.S. on U.S. soil.

Very nice. Very fair.... and then we have imbiciles who still want American equipment, and dream of the day the U.S. will sell us F-16s.

[mysterious]

I'd say those people are just trying their luck to see if they can get what they might in a one-off thing or watever 'cuz they (by now) know a lot more of US allegiance to its allies (which is hardly ever stable except for a few exceptions) than they did back in the 60s or the 70s or the 80s. ;)

Admin: Do NOT abuse people, you have been a member of this board long enough to know what is acceptable

[Indus]

History lesson:

India tests nukes and then Pakistan tests nukes in return.

As a result, Pakistan get slapped with sanctions, aircraft are withheld, and no spares for existing aircraft.

While India is offered the F-16, and their pilots get to train with the U.S. on U.S. soil.

Very nice. Very fair.... and then we have imbiciles who still want American equipment, and dream of the day the U.S. will sell us F-16s.


Well Londo, I would say that if anything Pak has gotten the better end of the deal from U.S.

Billions of dollars in aid, relief of debt, NMNA status, etc.

[Londo Molari]

Billions of dollars in aid? Where are you getting this from?
And relief of which debt?
Also, NMNA Status is worth as much as the paper its written on.

[lalith prasad]

well he's got a point .by the way iaf will be excercising with singapore air force f-16s at gwalior this years and india and russia have jointly decided to invite china to participate in the pakfa project .and also lca pv1 and 2 will be weapons tested this year. well well interesting news isnt it.

[srirangan]

Well for starters IAF's training exercise has nothing to do against Pakistan. US has and will stop the Indians attacking Pakistan, atleast as long as US needs Pak against Al-Queda.

Billions of dollars in aid? Where are you getting this from?
And relief of which debt?
You don't read newspapers do you?

[Londo Molari]

Execises are not against Pakistan? In its entire history, who has India used its air force against? Only Pakistan... who else are they going to engage in combat with? England?

U.S. doesn't need Pakistan for anything... the "Al-Queda threat" form the Afghanistan region is no more a threat to the U.S. Now Pakistan is just suffering repurcussions from militants, because they backed up the U.S. against the Taliban.

The U.S. has never stopped India from attacking Pakistan.

In the war of 72, What did the U.S. do? They did not intervene, the war started, and PAF lost 30% of its aircaft! The U.S. did nothing! China was the one who saved our ass by giving us 200 F-6s, out of nowhere to return us to full strength.

Its convenient to say "You don't read newspapers do you?". Maybe you can enlighten me...

[srirangan]

No it's not against Pakistan. India is not a Pakistan centric country. Hint: China. It's really not that hard to see this.

In the war of 72, What did the U.S. do?
Why go back to '72? 2002 it was US that stopped the Indian build up.

U.S. doesn't need Pakistan for anything...
US needs Pak to capture OBL. And dismantle the remaining Taliban. The Al-Queda is very much still a threat to US interests too.

Its convenient to say "You don't read newspapers do you?". Maybe you can enlighten me...
Yu're kiddin me right. Here nare links:
http://www.jubileeplus.org/worldnews/asia/us_assures_pakistan_debt_relief.htm
http://www.awitness.org/news/november_2001/pakistan_debt_relief.html
http://usembassy.state.gov/islamabad/wwwh02082304.html
http://www.dawn.com/2002/02/23/top7.htm

[lalith prasad]

in 1972 usa didnt get involved because russia was ready to intervene on india's side the then russian admiral asured india of russia's full support in the event of us intervention .a russian nuke sub even trailed the us aircraft carrier throughout that war..nd besides by the time us carrier got into posistion the indian carrier vikrant was already in posistion and the bombing of dhaka was taking place .the us were convinced that it was just a matter of days before dhaka fell and they didnt want to accelerate a regional war into a global war.

[lalith prasad]

the russian admirals name was gorshkov the father of modern indian navy. :)

[XEROX]

am i right to assume indian Pilots got 300hrs flying experience while US pilots got nearer 250hrs of flying during 2003

[audenm]

I think the Americans are just fooling the Indian's with these exercise's. They real intention is to check the latest weaponery the eastern nations(China, Russia) are having. First they come to India(remember cope india over gwalior sky) with their older versions of F-15's and now they want to check the refuelling technology.of India's latest arsenal(Russian and Chinese both use the same tech).

Also recent articles surfacing in the media abot the so Called defeat of American jets by Indian Su-30 Aircraft can be concedered as a gimmick by the American Air force To argue that they require the more numbers of the latest american jets ( F-35 if i am not mistake). everything is a Business for American's.

[XEROX]

To be honest I think it was a platform to push the case for the F/A-22 for the yanks; however I fully believe that the Indian pilots are quite good and are not that far behind their Americans counterparts

[XEROX]

i think the indian pilots are in the top 4 or 5 in terms of quality and training.

my top 3
1-USAF
2-RAF
3-french

[srirangan]

am i right to assume indian Pilots got 300hrs flying experience while US pilots got nearer 250hrs of flying during 2003

Not an assumption but a fact. This has been documented by various sources so it's safe to accept it.

[srirangan]

my top 3
1-USAF
2-RAF
3-french

I'ld go for:

#1 IDAF (Israel)
#2 USAF
#3 US Navy Air Division

[XEROX]

suprising, i would have the RAF in my top 3

[srirangan]

I'ld give them the 4th place. :)

[adsH]

Israel is, in no way better then us, UK is alot better i can't imagine israel winning a conflict against us, you know Siri you underestimate RAF!! RAF is not all that bad. in-fact if you read up on RAF you might start likeing it :lol. Israel being no 1 is joke the uSNAVY alone posses enough ari power to wipe out any potential aggressor in a conflict, and i mean any.

RAF can conduct an operation around the world at a short notice it has the capability economically and Militarily, it also posses one of the most proficient professional Airforce personnel in the world.

[XEROX]

the RAF are the most professional air force in the world, what kills them in conflict is probabaly freindly fire (yanks)

[Soldier]

the RAF are the most professional air force in the world, what kills them in conflict is probabaly freindly fire (yanks)
:D: :D: :flower2 :rolling :lolol :rotfl

[srirangan]

:lolol

[adsH]

i think USAF relies too much on there Poorly constructed Computer systems (Windows XP :lol), they should start using abit of there own ability to identify targets at-least Identify a target that is in WVR, i can understand BVR situations.

[XEROX]

windows XP - what an Atrocity

[XEROX]

Real-Time Linux for me :smokingc:

[srirangan]

WinXP.. ah that explains the friendly fires.. :lolol

[XEROX]

yeah man, that BIll Gates needs to be put into Guantanamo :cry

[srirangan]

leyt's not go offtopic here .. we don't want web yellin again..

[XEROX]

yeah, good idea

[adsH]

here in RAF they actually teach you to Visually identify targets. because of there distance you are even told to look at attributes spot the differences and unique points of AC, and then you can use your own intelligence to figure out what AC is being flown around by who in the area (from the mission Briefing)

[gf0012-aust]

i think USAF relies too much on there Poorly constructed Computer systems (Windows XP :lol),


Not wanting to be a party pooper, but XP is not used in the building of targetting software. It's usually a language like ADA, and on smaller runs Assembly.

Windows is used in some of the networking in strike groups, but the usual software is ADA, ASM, Cobol even Fortran, C, C++ etc... Unix is used for security environments.

[adsH]

i think USAF relies too much on there Poorly constructed Computer systems (Windows XP :lol),


Not wanting to be a party pooper, but XP is not used in the building of targetting software. It's usually a language like ADA, and on smaller runs Assembly.

Windows is used in some of the networking in strike groups, but the usual software is ADA, ASM, Cobol even Fortran, C, C++ etc... Unix is used for security environments.

yeas i am aware of that most of us geeks here are Just having a Laugh all of us here are Linux and UNix users i am a Unix user and i program in C++ but i love Java, GF were only Having a laugh !!

[Londo Molari]

No it's not against Pakistan. India is not a Pakistan centric country. Hint: China. It's really not that hard to see this.

Thats your opinion... in the history of the Indian Air Force, who is the only country they have engaged? Thats right, Pakistan.

Why go back to '72? 2002 it was US that stopped the Indian build up.

Why go back to '72? Because it was the last conflict in which Pakistan's sovereignity was threatened. And U.S. did NOT stop the Indian build-up. Dream on.

US needs Pak to capture OBL. And dismantle the remaining Taliban. The Al-Queda is very much still a threat to US interests too.

LOL, no. OBL is probably long dead, and the Taliban are finished. Al-Queda has spread out to many different countries, like Iraq.

Yu're kiddin me right. Here nare links:
http://www.jubileeplus.org/worldnews/asia/us_assures_pakistan_debt_relief.htm
http://www.awitness.org/news/november_2001/pakistan_debt_relief.html
http://usembassy.state.gov/islamabad/wwwh02082304.html
http://www.dawn.com/2002/02/23/top7.htm

Your first 3 links are non-official and unreliable.
The 4rth link only talks about promises of a $1 billion debt writeoff. Not only does the news not confirm that it has occurred, but the $1 billion is chump change compared to our total debt.

[srirangan]

Your first 3 links are non-official and unreliable.
Yeah right! You say the US Embassy link (http://usembassy.state.gov/islamabad/wwwh02082304.html) is unofficial and un reliable, dream on.. :roll

in the history of the Indian Air Force, who is the only country they have engaged? Thats right, Pakistan.
People don't plan just on the basis of history, people plan ahead for the future. IAF is not Pakistan centric, end of story.

Why go back to '72? Because it was the last conflict in which Pakistan's sovereignity was threatened. And U.S. did NOT stop the Indian build-up.
US stopped the Indian build up and war efforts in 2002. This is a fact.

OBL is probably long dead, and the Taliban are finished. Al-Queda has spread out to many different countries, like Iraq.
Yeah right, and what has the PA been fighting in Wana recently? Taliban and Al Queda. US still needs pakistan to capture the remanents and the top heads of Al Queda and Taliban, including OBL.

Can you prove it to anybody that OBL is indeed dead?

[XEROX]

ok, going back to the topic why are india sending the Jaguars

[gf0012-aust]

ok, going back to the topic why are india sending the Jaguars

Not sure about the IAF, but the Jaguars were considered some of the best Nuke delivery platforms in the RAF. Good solid performers, decent load out, very reliable.

In some respects, they are still a match for current gen aircraft as far as payload capability goes.

[XEROX]

they are definitly sending jaguars instead of su-30s!!

[Gremlin29]

the RAF are the most professional air force in the world, what kills them in conflict is probabaly freindly fire (yanks)

Huh? I'm curious as to how you came to this conclussion?

here in RAF they actually teach you to Visually identify targets. because of there distance you are even told to look at attributes spot the differences and unique points of AC, and then you can use your own intelligence to figure out what AC is being flown around by who in the area (from the mission Briefing)

adsH, I usually agree with what you say but your statement implies that "threat ID" is something special to the RAF. I doubt there are very many military aviators out there that don't know the difference between an F-14 and a Mig 29.

[Aussie Digger]

India is sending equipment that best fits with the results they wish to get from the exercise. If they are sendig Jaguars then obviously they are looking to test their strike capability and seeing if their tactics and doctrine can be improved when facing a high quality air defence.

[adsH]

the RAF are the most professional air force in the world, what kills them in conflict is probabaly freindly fire (yanks)

Huh? I'm curious as to how you came to this conclussion?

here in RAF they actually teach you to Visually identify targets. because of there distance you are even told to look at attributes spot the differences and unique points of AC, and then you can use your own intelligence to figure out what AC is being flown around by who in the area (from the mission Briefing)

adsH, I usually agree with what you say but your statement implies that "threat ID" is something special to the RAF. I doubt there are very many military aviators out there that don't know the difference between an F-14 and a Mig 29.

yeas i agree with yeah. i just got abit hyped up!! i might of been high on cofee when i said that !!. But i know Automation helps to a great extent but i still reckon common sense should prevail. I can understand a Patriot systems shooting an RAF Tornado down, but i cannot imagine why a USAF pilot would do such a thing. i know by personal experience how unreliable complicated Database systems can be, i am sure the patriots are still going through there continued testing so i hope they turn out to be alot more reliable. i personally think BAE's new toy for the WVR target identification system for the JSF would be great but then again that would really on AI and AI is even more unreliable then Non AI systems.

[Deltared075]

:lolol

Well, I consider the window XP was the most powerful window for now... forget the unix or linux....

[adsH]

Xp is not powerful at all, "power" cannot descibe an OS, Windows has alot to offer to a new user, BUt Unix is a tested world class platform,it has been aound for i think 20 pluss years, it has received millions of Updated and correction, its a well designed layed out platform. while XP is all over the place!! XP has been hyped up becasue of advertisements. UNIX platforms like MAC OS X Panther and Tiger are alot easier to use. it's GUI's that User like, and no one beats apple at GUI (who actually developed the idea of GUI). we are now seeing multiple Unix and linux platforms coming together and one-such example is the X11 platform.

to lay it all out i Have a Mac Running OS X panther. i have been using this software for about 6 months before that i had a Jaguar runnig, and i have only had to reset ie turnoff my Desktop only once in the past year (to install Panther). UNIX hardly ever crashes. the file searches are alot better. and i can trust my desktop to keep my documents safe in it.

[XEROX]

i think Microsoft XP still has around 100 bugs

[WebMaster]

:lolol

Well, I consider the window XP was the most powerful window for now... forget the unix or linux....

That is the most misinformed comment about Unix and linux systems. Althought they are not that user friendly but systems that have linux or unix installed on them have been running in some organizations for over 1000 days maybe more.... still their uptime response time is excellent! Windows systems no matter how good and how advanced need to be rebooted every 3-15 days, depending on what type of changes you make and programs that you run on them, not to mention the weekly windows update. :D :roll

[gf0012-aust]

That is the most misinformed comment about Unix and linux systems. Althought they are not that user friendly but systems that have linux or unix installed on them have been running in some organizations for over 1000 days maybe more.... still their uptime response time is excellent! Windows systems no matter how good and how advanced need to be rebooted every 3-15 days, depending on what type of changes you make and programs that you run on them, not to mention the weekly windows update. :D :roll

Windows is absolute rubbish. The majority of combat and security systems I've been involved with are Unix or derivatives, no-one in their right mind would run critical processes with Windows. Bloody memory leaks, process blocking etc... all those processes queue up, don't get unhooked properly and then crash the application. It's a legalised virus.

:mad

[WebMaster]

Tell me about it Gary. :mad Windows is okay for home user and end work stations but for critical system and delivery related issues - unix/linux are way to go.

[XEROX]

i though the US military used LynxOS Real-Time

[srirangan]

Windows is not okay for anybody. Windows is a piss poor product which is excellently marketed and whose competition is bought out.

[XEROX]

:mrgreen linux , macOS Panther :mrgreen :cry Windows XP, windows Longhorn :cry

[Londo Molari]

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2118

Oh look, U.S. Is offering ToT of F-16 to India... when they dont even SELL it to us...

We BOTH conducted nuclear tests... in fact India did theirs first! And you say they support and need Pakistan, lol.

[Londo Molari]

Yeah right! You say the US Embassy link (http://usembassy.state.gov/islamabad/wwwh02082304.html) is unofficial and un reliable, dream on.. :roll
It is unreliable. The U.S. embassy link is as reliable as the U.S. media. Fully biased. You need a third party saying that the debt was ACTUALLY reliefed... not just empty promises.

People don't plan just on the basis of history, people plan ahead for the future. IAF is not Pakistan centric, end of story.
BS, if you think India's primary concern is not Pakistan, then you're dreaming.


US stopped the Indian build up and war efforts in 2002. This is a fact.
Source?

Yeah right, and what has the PA been fighting in Wana recently? Taliban and Al Queda. US still needs pakistan to capture the remanents and the top heads of Al Queda and Taliban, including OBL.
But its not an active threat to the U.S. and the U.S. doesnt really care... or they would have provided Pakistan with what it asks, SPARE PARTS for existing aircrafts!

[Indus]

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2118

Oh look, U.S. Is offering ToT of F-16 to India... when they dont even SELL it to us...

We BOTH conducted nuclear tests... in fact India did theirs first! And you say they support and need Pakistan, lol.


Yeah buddy, there is a big differnce b/w offering something and actually getting it.


Pakistan scoops $3bn in debt relief
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2211288.stm

Pakistan to get $1bn debt relief
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2917903.stm

Bush names Pakistan 'major ally'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3814013.stm

[mysterious]

Inducting F-16s for India is like US trying to induct (Russian) Su-30s!! The whole process would be needed to be started from scratch and its not a practical thing to do when your opponent already has decades of experience using that platform with obviously sound edge over you. ;)

[adsH]

lets stick to the Topic !!

India has rulled out F-16 and the US is not begging to sell-em any more!!

[Londo Molari]

Yeah, India has refused THEM... not the other way around... pretty sad, and yet some of us still dream of U.S. equipment...sad indeed.

P.S. Like you said Indus... big different between OFFERING debt relief, and GETTING it. Big difference between being LABELLED a major ally, and actually HELPING the major ally with its security.

[gf0012-aust]

Yeah, India has refused THEM... not the other way around...

India was never going to consider US aircraft for the combat role. They are committed to Russia as a long term partner. It would have been a logistics nightmare, an integration nightmare and an operational nightmare.

The US offer was symbolic, only a lunatic in the SD would have thought that India would jeopardise 60+ years of relationship for a jet that would only complicate the force structure and mess up the existing battle and training doctrine.

[mysterious]

I think Gary's said it all. :smokingc:

[danger dan]

Hi,

I pretty sure this war was in 1971, whose outcome was the creation of the nation state of Bangldesh, and as for the US not providing any assistance it is common knowledge that the Enterprise carrier group was sent to the Bay of Bengal to put pressure on the Indians.

The US needs Pakistan only to hunt for Bin Laden and nothing else they are also worried that if they remove any sort of support for Pakistan they feel that the Nuclear weapons might fall in the hands of the Jehadis.

I read in a book called "The Most Dangerous Man in the World" that after Sep 11, Indian and Israeli commandos were all ready to go in and take over all of Pakistans nuclear facilities and were only stopped on behest of the US.

As far as the F 16 goes it is now an older aircraft India should go ahead and try to acquire the JSF.

[srirangan]

India are looking at the MCA and the Pak-FA fighters as their 5th gen alternatives. US had invited India in the JSF project, but we were already committed to the Pak-FA by then.

[syeduzair]

As far as we see the Indai's track record of R&D it gona take a couple of centureis for MCA. :D

[danger dan]

India are looking at the MCA and the Pak-FA fighters as their 5th gen alternatives. US had invited India in the JSF project, but we were already committed to the Pak-FA by then.

What is the Pak - FA project I tried to troll the web for info but nothign, has there been a design freeze for this and are there details available?

[syeduzair]

Here you go,
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/pak-fa.htm
http://www.futura-dtp.dk/Flysiden/Fly/Sukhoi/PAKFA.htm

[neel24neo]

starting up is a problem for everyone(not just for indians),thats why pioneering efforts are the toughest.but once that phase is done,rest of the way tends to be easier. this is more so because MCA shares a lot of basics with LCA.therefore once LCA is donewith building MCA wouldnt be a himalayan task,in any case it wouldnt take centuries that you are hoping for.

[syeduzair]

starting up is a problem for everyone(not just for indians),thats why pioneering efforts are the toughest.but once that phase is done,rest of the way tends to be easier. this is more so because MCA shares a lot of basics with LCA.therefore once LCA is donewith building MCA wouldnt be a himalayan task,in any case it wouldnt take centuries that you are hoping for.

With having all of the manufacturing Technology, Access to french wind tunnels and finite element simulation programs, backup from russian research, if it still take more then 20 years to build a delta wing aerodynamic shape, then just imagine how long it gona take to stabilize a tail less aerodaynamic shape, forget about avianoics. Dont you feel Mr Anderson I am right :P

[neel24neo]

With having all of the manufacturing Technology, Access to french wind tunnels and finite element simulation programs, backup from russian research, if it still take more then 20 years to build a delta wing aerodynamic shape, then just imagine how long it gona take to stabilize a tail less aerodaynamic shape, forget about avianoics. Dont you feel Mr Anderson I am right


well,agent smith,then it should definitely take less than 15 years.lets see what happens.i am not nostradamus and i dont beleive you are...so let the events run their course.

[syeduzair]

yes you are right 15 years, first 5 years DRDO gona try to make it possiable, next 5 years Politicians will take a decsion, then in last 5 years french can work out the job for India, MCA is complete.

by the way, I am not agent smith, I was at the train station, just watching. ;)

[neel24neo]

yes you are right 15 years, first 5 years DRDO gona try to make it possiable, next 5 years Politicians will take a decsion, then in last 5 years french can work out the job for India, MCA is complete.

by the way, I am not agent smith, I was at the train station, just watching.


the answer for you is there in my previous posts.lets see...
by the way,anybody is a potential agent....

[syeduzair]

you are getting smart, love to see this. :)
do you work in DRDO, if yes then I am sure MCA gona be all set in 15 years ;)

Admin

1) Grow up
2) Learn to show some respect for others
3) Try to add value to topics rather than continue to post inane comments

[syeduzair]

well webbi, you wana make it dry and boring, will lose the taste. There is nothing offending just funny :) .

Admin, believe me your comments are not funny at all, they're offensive. Other people in here succeed in having meaningful discussions without having to resort to such behavior. Read the Forum rules or risk having your posts deleted. Learn to treat others with opposing views with respect - or go to another Forum

[srirangan]

>> by the way, I am not agent smith, I was at the train station, just watching.

yeah well, time to step out of the matrix and see the real world mate. Here's a red pill for you. :o

[dabrownguy]

Actually I certianly believe the MCA project can be finished in less than 10 years time starting from the funding. Consider this that the LCA is suppose to be 5 generation strike aircraft to replace the ageing Jaguar and Mirages by 2020. No MCA does not have internal weapons bay so that makes the project a whole lot easier. Just like LCA was dirived from the Mirage the MCA could be direved from the Rafeale. It would have the same wings as the LCA which have proven to be quit succesfull. The hardest part of the MCA would be the tailess TVC design and engine. ;)

[srirangan]

The MCA isn't that ambitious project. They'll wait for the PAK-FA prototype and then develope an MCA prototype by just working on the LCA frame and picking up from the PAK-FA. This prototype is expected around 2008-09, then let's see if it out performs the PAK-FA or not.

The PAK-FA is like the Russian equivalent of the JSF (as in built for exports) and India realizes this and thus desires to build an improved MCA for the IAF.

[muslim282]

Quite ambitious for india to talk about the MCA, considering the fact that the LCA has not got anywere yet, engine problems, structural cracking, avionics not decided, software problems let alone trying to integrate weapons on to it. The LCA project started in the mid 80s, 20 years later its still a white elephant. Lets be honest even thinking about the MCA is a bit far fetched at this stage.

[neel24neo]

the reason why MCA is not that ambitious is that it shares a lot of technology with the LCA.for example it uses the same engine(though uprated),wing sections ang other subsystems.in aerospace industry it is not uncommon to go for a family of products belonging to different generations,which are basically,development of the same product.eg;su-27 family.another example is from the indian space launchers.india developed SLV-3,ASLV,PSLV andGSLV in a sequence so that systems and sub-systems from one launcher can be used for developing the next generation launcher.in the same way,once LCA is inducted into the airforce,the work on MCA can be started at once.the date of induction of LCA is not that far considering that three LCAs are already flying and has gone supersonic sometime back.yes there has been some trouble with kaveri engine,but that wouldnt stall the programme.i donot know where you got your information on structural cracking,avionics and software glitches though.coming to the time taken for the project,let me ask you how long did the f-22 take to become what it is today?well over 20 years(i donot know if it is in service yet).