Does India need a dedicated GPS satellite?

[XEROX]

Or does it just toggle along with the E.U Galileo Global Satellite system project :alian2

[adsH]

Or does it just toggle along with the E.U Galileo Global Satellite system project :alian2
the US couldn't stop the EU Planners but i think the US will not allow INdia to have their own GPS satellite. they would have too much problems with over complicating the structure.

[XEROX]

so i guess thats why china and india have signed up for the Galileo project, but then again i though china were going to launch its own GPS satellite

[ZhangKe]

so i guess thats why china and india have signed up for the Galileo project, but then again i though china were going to launch its own GPS satellite

Hehe~~~we already got~~~

Chinese Designation: Beidou, now already launch 8-9?it is named as "Navigation Satellite".

[XEROX]

so why have you signed up along with india to join the Galileo project

[adsH]

the US will put a block some where!! GPS is something that the US takes very seriously, their entire Military works on GPS

[P.A.F]

na i don't think america can stop india from a GPS.

[adsH]

na i don't think america can stop india from a GPS.


just wait and see. teh US only aggreed on Extensive coverage for EEC nation, i doubt they will aloow the rest of the world to have there own GPS network, the US is very sensitive on this topic and any-other Space related topic you can pull up.

[WebMaster]

China is in galileo project, don't know about India. Pentagon gave EU very hard time over EU GPS project. I am not sure if EU went ahead with the project or stoped it due to pressure from US DoD.

[moughoun]

Gallileo is going ahead, the US dropped their demand for the ability to jam the signal in war time for the assurance that the European's would do it if asked

[srirangan]

A lot of mis-information in this thread. Let me clear things out.

(1) India and the US are working together on a navigational and augmentational survellence system, ie. GPS type system called the GAGAN Project. More detailed info at: http://defencetalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19413

This is a civilian system, but just as the Galileo system which claims to be civilian, these do have enormous militaristic value.

(2) India and China are having problems with the Galileo project because the EU wants India and China to be customers, while India has made it clear that if it's gonna invest it'll be having operational rights as an equal partner; China's stand is not clear as yet/

(3) China don't have a GPS system, one satellite doesn't comprise of a GPS system. :roll

[The Watcher]

China

http://www.galileosworld.com/galileosworld/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=75614

China is investing 2.3 billion and they won't get any control?
http://www.space.com/news/china_galileo_030921.html

http://europa.eu.int/comm/space/articles/news/news65_en.html

India on the other hand is making demands of the control but I doubt it will get any:

http://www.newkerala.com/news-daily/news/features.php?action=fullnews&showcomments=1&id=249 59

[srirangan]

That's right, China and India are being made customers and not investors. Which is why it's very likely that India is going to pull out.

[gf0012-aust]

AFAIK China won't get any control, they are an investor. A couple of the EU companies were "screwed" on national investments over the last 5 years, so they don't trust China to behave in a nice corporate fashion.

They are also wary of giving China much access into the system in case data is manipulated.

This was some time ago (3 months), so I'm not sure what has evolved since then.

[XEROX]

does anyone know the total cost of the Galileo Global Satellite system project

[adsH]

does anyone know the total cost of the Galileo Global Satellite system project

i don't see any point in this project waste of our resources as we would have to terminate its Operation when a conflict sparks off. Its more of a extended detail coverage issue more than a political or strategic issue. so even if india becomes a customer, it would mean that if india is at war half way around the world and if the US chose and it went to war then that would mean termination of European system. pointless as i see it. it's main purpose is for Detailed and extensive coverage for commercial use, it may be used by NATO for military purposes,

[Soldier]

does anyone know the total cost of the Galileo Global Satellite system project

i don't see any point in this project waste of our resources as we would have to terminate its Operation when a conflict sparks off. Its more of a extended detail coverage issue more than a political or strategic issue. so even if india becomes a customer, it would mean that if india is at war half way around the world and if the US chose and it went to war then that would mean termination of European system. pointless as i see it. it's main purpose is for Detailed and extensive coverage for commercial use, it may be used by NATO for military purposes,

adSH, what makes you think that US is capable of destroying European system and not vice-versa? If Pentagon was doing all this hue-cry about Galileo project it was only knowing that it had friendly relations with European countries. If it comes to war, there are plenty of nations in the world today who can destroy GPS too, excluding Russians who had and have the capability for decades.

I am not sure about the truth of this report until there is some proper admission by Russian or Indian government, but last I read in the newspaper was, that Indians and Russians were talking about India investing money in space with russian cooperation for Russian equailant to GPS. At one time there were more then 150 satellites of former USSR which were covering each and every yard of earth but now there are only about 30-40 satellites which are functional due to economic crisis in Russia.
Things like Russian and Indian joint cooperation keep coming up, but I somehow am pessimistic when it comes to the truth about these things, unless being confirmed by either country.

[adsH]

does anyone know the total cost of the Galileo Global Satellite system project

i don't see any point in this project waste of our resources as we would have to terminate its Operation when a conflict sparks off. Its more of a extended detail coverage issue more than a political or strategic issue. so even if india becomes a customer, it would mean that if india is at war half way around the world and if the US chose and it went to war then that would mean termination of European system. pointless as i see it. it's main purpose is for Detailed and extensive coverage for commercial use, it may be used by NATO for military purposes,

adSH, what makes you think that US is capable of destroying European system and not vice-versa? If Pentagon was doing all this hue-cry about Galileo project it was only knowing that it had friendly relations with European countries. If it comes to war, there are plenty of nations in the world today who can destroy GPS too, excluding Russians who had and have the capability for decades.

I am not sure about the truth of this report until there is some proper admission by Russian or Indian government, but last I read in the newspaper was, that Indians and Russians were talking about India investing money in space with russian cooperation for Russian equailant to GPS. At one time there were more then 150 satellites of former USSR which were covering each and every yard of earth but now there are only about 30-40 satellites which are functional due to economic crisis in Russia.
Things like Russian and Indian joint cooperation keep coming up, but I somehow am pessimistic when it comes to the truth about these things, unless being confirmed by either country.

oh no you misunderstood me ! i am saying when the US goes to war the European would shut down their system, it would cause problems for the US forces so the Europeans i think have agreed on these terms, the European system is for peaceful commercial coverage. apparently the current GPS system does not cover all of europe.

[srirangan]

Europe shuts down or not will not effect US. But it could effect US's adversary who might be using the Galelio.

Can you give me a link where it says GPS doesnot cover the entire Europe? The balkan war proves that it very well does, I refuse to believe that until you show me a trustworthy link.

[gf0012-aust]

apparently the current GPS system does not cover all of europe.

That doesn't sound right. The US is currently the only nation that has virtually 24/7/365 full space scan coverage of the earth. The last event in Iraq was the first time in history that battlefield weapons were managed and planned from space.

The USAF have more satellites in place than all other nations combined, and they have total coverage due to some weapons systems using GPS as part of their targetting solution.

I think the info got distorted somewhere in translation.

[srirangan]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Two Cents
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If you ask me, neither the Indian military or the Chinese military require GPS type systems for the next 20 years atleast. All militaries apart from US+ operate near home, in places which can be easily and accurately covered by ground based or air based radars.

The GPS has 24 block 2 satellites completing 2 orbits in one day. So the GPS does indeed have limitations and the only way forward is to integrate land based and air based radars with the GPS to make it truly global.

Still the GPS has been a huge success and credit has to go to US diplomacy which has been ble to secure GPS ground bases all over the world. I don't think European Union or any one else would be able to secure the required number of ground bases to make thier system's equivalent to the GPS.

Imho the Galelio project won't be as effective and far reaching as the GPS and for India and China to invest in this project, a system for which they have no need of, and to get no operational control, is a huge waste of money.

If anyone disagree's then you are wrong. ;)

[adsH]

Sri Europe only wants coverage of its own teratory not the Global Coverage. they wanted extensive coverage form the US GPS system but the Us was not so accomodateing so then they thought they would have to launch there OWN GPS to gain extensive coverage of the Continental Europe. An you are right other militarys use Other sort of navigational Systems. and they operate close to home so no one needs GPS for while.

[srirangan]

Sri Europe only wants coverage of its own teratory not the Global Coverage.

Factually wrong. Galelio intends to scan the entire planet. If it wasn't so, then countries such as India, China and Russia wouldn't show any interest in it.

[XEROX]

i belive russia has got its own navigation system - Glonass

[XEROX]

but i dont know if its for civilian or military use

[srirangan]

http://www.glonass-center.ru/purposes.html


WHAT PURPOSES GLONASS SERVES FOR?

* Air and naval traffic management, safety increasing;
* Geodesy and cartography;
* Ground transport monitoring;
* Time scale synchronisation of the remote from each other objects;
* Ecological monitoring, search and riscue operation organisation.

[XEROX]

similar to the US GPS and europes Gallelio

[XEROX]

however GPS and Gallelio do far more

[srirangan]

The Glosnas can do much more, but is it being used for all that? No one knows.. ;)

[XEROX]

A GPS system consists of a network of Satellites, i think Glosnas has a limited number of sats compared to Gallelio or US GPS which will have 24 or 29 satellites networked with each other

all residing within the Space Segment, it consists of 24 operational satellites in six 12-hour orbits 20,200 km (10,900 ml) above the earth at an inclination angle of 55 degrees. The satellites are spaced in orbit so that at any time a minimum of 4 satellites will be in view to users anywhere in the world. The satellites continuously broadcast a low power, one way position and time signal to users throughout the world. There are currently 29 satellites in orbit, or five spares, which assures the availability of 24 operational satellites.

[srirangan]

Yes, you are correct. But I already knew all that you said. Thanks anyway, I am sure someone else will benifit from that accurate information. :)

The GPS uses 5 Block-1 sat's and 24 Block-2 sat's. In total 29, orbiting the earth twice a day. Here's a very good source of comparison betw the GPS and Glonass:

http://www.oso.chalmers.se/~geo/gg_comp.html

[XEROX]

good read, cheers

[XEROX]

India, EU in space partnership

Hindustan Times: November 17, 2003

http://www.ibef.org/artdisplay.aspx?cat_id=183&art_id=664


INDIA AND the European Union will lay the foundation of a new strategic partnership with an agreement to join hands for a new global navigation satellite system, Galileo. The partnership will bring India, the EU summit on November 29.

A joint declaration that will chart the future of Indo-EU relations will be the highlight of the summit. Galileo will be the first global positioning service under civilian control, aiming to break the monopoly of the American Global Positioning System.

“We have a convergence of views with India and China and this system will lead to multi-polarism in the world,” remarked a senior European Diplomat.

While India is expected to contribute $350 million, China has already pledged $230 million for the project, expected to cost about $3.2 billion. “We see Galileo as an important ingredient for a multi-polar world,” said a senior official. Although there is a huge cost involved, New Delhi is viewing the larger picture. “We were keen to be on board because global positioning technology can have many advantages for India, especially in transport and disaster management,” said a senior official. Experts say the EU was keen to engage India because of its expertise in space and IT.



Articles about half year old but gives good insight

[XEROX]

what do they mean by "Multi-Polar world" ????????????

[srirangan]

Well, EU wants to end US domination, hence make it multi polar. I doubt they'll succeed.

Edit:
By saying multi-polar world, they're kidding you.. :)

[adsH]

i think Multi polar is used here to express the Changing winds in the world very very colorful use of words!!, i am still not sure,

[ZhangKe]

A lot of mis-information in this thread. Let me clear things out.

(3) China don't have a GPS system, one satellite doesn't comprise of a GPS system. :roll

Xichang Satellite Launch Centre (Base 27)

CHRONOLOGY
http://www.sinodefence.com/space/facility/xichang.asp

[ZhangKe]

More about Bei Dou System [BD Star Navigation]

eh...I'm sorry those r all chiese web...

http://www.navchina.com/pinpai/beidou.asp

http://www.c114.net/technic/technicread.asp?articleid=6282&boardcode=data

[srirangan]

Dude your english link had nothing regarding a GPS system. Are you aware of the physical complexities and geological demands? For a GPS system, China would need a ground base in third time zone!!

A regional sensing satellite is what China has, many countries including India, Brazil have such a system in place. Regional Positioning -does not equal- Global Positioning

Cheers!