PIA to buy SAAB 2000-ground work for eerie eye

[fieldmarshal]

PIA Fokkers to be replaced with new aircraft
By Tahir Siddiqui
http://www.dawn.com/2004/06/19/top12.htm
KARACHI, June 18: Pakistan International Airline has decided to replace its ageing Fokker fleet with SAAB2000 aircraft.

Sources said the airline decided to replace the F-27s as the Fokker aircraft manufacturers, a Dutch concern, had stopped production over 10 years ago.

They said that spare parts of these aircraft were now available at exorbitant prices and therefore, PIA decided to go for the SAAB2000 aircraft. Interestingly, the sources said, the SAAB's aircraft manufacturing division stopped production some three years ago. The Swedish concern is now dealing in cars and defence aviation accessories, they said.

They said that neither the members of PIA's board of directors nor retired senior officers of the Pakistan Air Force were qualified to decide the type of aircraft suited for commercial aviation because they had no expertise in the field.

The sources said that fleet replacement and the choice of aircraft mainly depended on five factors which were: (a) airline's financial status, (b) passenger profile, (c) route structure, (d) Environmental conditions of the main hubs from which it plans to operate and (e) fare structure.

They said that none of the factors was considered when the decision to buy the new aircraft was made. The sources said environmental conditions were important for smooth operation of an aircraft as high summer temperatures, elevation, length of runway and obstacles in flight path determined the payload that an aircraft could carry.

They said the SAAB2000 aircraft were fully computerised and their operation capability depended on optimum operation of their computerised systems, while hot and humid climatic conditions with dust suspension affected the functioning of computers.

The sources said a high-tech aircraft, equipped with advanced airborne landing instrumentation, would be useless if the airports on which they were planned to be operated, were not equipped with appropriate landing instrument.

The sources said the airports used by the Fokker were not equipped with instrumentation to justify the high capital investment involved in the purchase of the new aircraft.

In fact no airport in Pakistan, except Lahore, has Category 2 landing facility, while the recently purchased B-777 has the capability to land in Category 3 weather conditions. (Category 3 landing facility enables an aircraft to land in visibilities ranging from zero to 50 metres).

The sources said the Fokker operation had never been profitable for the national carrier as it had been meant to meet the political obligation of successive governments over the past 15 to 20 years. They said the high cost of inducting new technology could be justified only if it could be used to its optimum capacity.

[fieldmarshal]

Pia buyin the saab 2000 is good news but if u think bout it that is not the real news..........the real news is that PAF has decided to use the saab 2000 as the platform for its awacs sys .
this along with the aqusition of fighter is too cool.........specially the centeric nature of the whloe thing..they incombo would be deadly in fact the deadly in our neck of the woods :smokingc: .............so u know who watch out :D:

[adsH]

PIA Fokkers to be replaced with new aircraft
By Tahir Siddiqui
http://www.dawn.com/2004/06/19/top12.htm
KARACHI, June 18: Pakistan International Airline has decided to replace its ageing Fokker fleet with SAAB2000 aircraft.

Interestingly, the sources said, the SAAB's aircraft manufacturing division stopped production some three years ago. The Swedish concern is now dealing in cars and defence aviation accessories, they said.

y.


how are they going to make the AC, any plans for producing them in partnership with pakistan. the only problem i would see is that Pakistan lacks the engineering standards required to manufacture a civilian jet, but then again if the swedes are there they can help alot

[P.A.F]

KARACHI, June 18: Pakistan International Airline has decided to replace its ageing Fokker fleet with SAAB2000 aircraft.

Sources said the airline decided to replace the F-27s as the Fokker aircraft manufacturers, a Dutch concern, had stopped production over 10 years ago.

They said that spare parts of these aircraft were now available at exorbitant prices and therefore, PIA decided to go for the SAAB2000 aircraft. Interestingly, the sources said, the SAAB's aircraft manufacturing division stopped production some three years ago. The Swedish concern is now dealing in cars and defence aviation accessories, they said.

They said that neither the members of PIA's board of directors nor retired senior officers of the Pakistan Air Force were qualified to decide the type of aircraft suited for commercial aviation because they had no expertise in the field.

The sources said that fleet replacement and the choice of aircraft mainly depended on five factors which were: (a) airline's financial status, (b) passenger profile, (c) route structure, (d) Environmental conditions of the main hubs from which it plans to operate and (e) fare structure.

They said that none of the factors was considered when the decision to buy the new aircraft was made. The sources said environmental conditions were important for smooth operation of an aircraft as high summer temperatures, elevation, length of runway and obstacles in flight path determined the payload that an aircraft could carry.

They said the SAAB2000 aircraft were fully computerised and their operation capability depended on optimum operation of their computerised systems, while hot and humid climatic conditions with dust suspension affected the functioning of computers.

The sources said a high-tech aircraft, equipped with advanced airborne landing instrumentation, would be useless if the airports on which they were planned to be operated, were not equipped with appropriate landing instrument.

The sources said the airports used by the Fokker were not equipped with instrumentation to justify the high capital investment involved in the purchase of the new aircraft.

In fact no airport in Pakistan, except Lahore, has Category 2 landing facility, while the recently purchased B-777 has the capability to land in Category 3 weather conditions. (Category 3 landing facility enables an aircraft to land in visibilities ranging from zero to 50 metres).

The sources said the Fokker operation had never been profitable for the national carrier as it had been meant to meet the political obligation of successive governments over the past 15 to 20 years. They said the high cost of inducting new technology could be justified only if it could be used to its optimum capacity.


http://www.dawn.com/2004/06/19/top12.htm

[fieldmarshal]

well with the kind of moey that we are talkin bout here....i recon the swedes will do any thing to make it all happen.....even if that means tot and even possible maufacture here...more like an assembly............but id say its raelly interustin

[P.A.F]

has the purchase documents been signed yet? coz if not i think that mussaraf is gonna go and sign the deal with the gripens at the same time like Adsh said

[WebMaster]

PAF, they still have to talk about it and negotiate the deal before signing anything. :)

[adsH]

all these new fokker replacements are being used as a carrot so the sedes make the Grippen and Awac deal happen!! PAF is desperate so its now up tp the politicians to to do what they are good at bate'ing. i wonder if Swedes would be interested in reopening there Civilian Airliner production for pakistan i reckon it would cheaper if they reopen it in Pakistan. pakistan has quiet a bit influence on these Ritch arab nations they would buy the swede AC.

[P.A.F]

the saab 2000's can be used as re-fuel :D: ers as well

[adsH]

thats the biggest advantage Pakistan wouldn't have to waste money on buying new Airliners, if they can make these at home with the Swedes then everything could revolve around these AC.

[P.A.F]

next thing u know is that they might be made to be nuke bombers :D: only jokin.
na it's a good thing if pak gets to build these. there reliable and economic.

[adsH]

Not to mention very very hightech !! and pluss Sasste me kaam chall jaye ga!!

[joker]

The Saab 2000 is a good plane but I believe the PAF rejected the Saab 2000 as a future AEW platform due to the insufficient space available for the operators and its relatively short loitering time so I dont think the Saab 2000 will be a future AEW platform (IF the Erieye is purchased) let alone aerial refueller.

I dont know what the Swedes are going to do I mean opening a new production line for 10 aircrafts (without any prospects for a follow on order) is going to cost PIA a pretty penny. I doubt the Swedes are going to transfer the production facilities to Pakistan... the infrastructure doesnt exist and will not be financially viable from a Pakistani perspective.

[mysterious]

I think the if the PAF or PIA or whichever institution in Pakistan is really interested in Saab 2000 aircraft and is serious about the thing; then the Swedes would be better off by transferring the technology over to Pakistan by setting up a plant for it manufacturing (and that would give Pakistan a lot of insight and help for future programs) and giving Pakistan the 'license' to make and export those aircraft as I just have this gutt feelin' that some Middle East countries may also be interested in this aircraft. The reason is that it can be made by tailoring it towards specific functions! It can be used as a private jet for high-ranking officials 'n' stuff, or as a platform for AWACS and lastly, a refuelling aircraft. Given these three operations, I think it would be a good sell for other third world countries as well if its produced in Pakistan ('cuz of course the cost would be low or manufacturing such an aircraft there). :smokingc:

[P.A.F]

guys did you know that nawaz sarif turned down the deal with sweden to move 5%-6% of saab to pakistan. i bet you never knew that hey. i'll try and get a source for ya.

[fieldmarshal]

joker .......the saab 2000 is quite spacious for the aew opperations.......it was the saab 340b which was small thus could just accomidate three operators

[adsH]

LAHORE, Pakistan : June 20 (PNS) - Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) Engineering and Maintenance Department is rendering valuable services and issuance of Part-145 Certificate by European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) speaks of the high standard and efficiency of the department.

According to PIA sources here, national standard carrier which had applied for the certificate in March 2003 got it within a year. "After getting this certificate PIA can carry out overhauling of planes of other airlines and we have already entered an agreement with Turkish Airline for overhauling of its 10 aircrafts," said the sources. The sources said that PIA's Engineering and Maintenance Department has competent professionals and hoped that the department would get more business in the days ahead.

The provision of overhauling facilities at competitive rates would help attract more business making Engineering and Maintenance Department a profit earning wing of the airlines, said the sources.


this proves it that Pakistan is interested in Civial Aviation contract so if Saab could be convinced to open up a facility in partnership with Pakistan government then they could do some-serious business, Pakistan Foreign office has some good relations with alot of like minded nations.

[Asim Aquil]

How come there's all this talk about Erieye? Any news source at all confirming this?

[adsH]

How come there's all this talk about Erieye? Any news source at all confirming this?


Its Deductive reasoning !! The only AWACS available are teh swedish and Chinese, Chinese ones are too Early in the development cycle and may not be as good as the INdian Falcons.
Eyriee is the most likely candidate, Saab actually wants to sell them to PAF, and this deal about 40 grippens and awacs are as old as 1994 when PAF was denied the grippens and the awacs due to American Input. i think PAF is going for this deal. the mirages are too old and now it can be called a primitive construct AC but a very uptodate Avionic the only other new AC, the rafael is too expensive if the french lower there price tag PAF might be tempted to go for it but then they (French ) would mince PAF on Spare.

[adsH]

this ac can never be used for the Enhanced improved version of the Eyriee systems its turboprop!!

SAAB 2000 REGIONAL TRANSPORT AIRCRAFT, SWEDEN
The Saab 2000 regional transport turboprop aircraft was developed by Saab Aircraft of Linköping, Sweden. It first flew in March 1992 and entered service with launch customer Crossair (now Swiss) in 1994. There are 60 Saab 2000 aircraft operational worldwide in France, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Lithuania, Marshall Islands, Sweden, Switzerland and USA. Production of the aircraft ceased in 1999.

Saab Aircraft Leasing, with headquarters in Washington DC, leases around 289 Saab 340 and Saab 2000 aircraft to 25 airlines. Airlines leasing the Saab 2000 include AirJet of France, Lithuanian Airlines, AeroLitoral of Mexico, Transwest Air of Canada, Blue 1 (formerly Air Botnia) of Finland and OLT GmbH of Germany.

The maximum cruise speed is 370 KTAS (knots true airspeed), 685km/h nd the maximum range is 2,868km. The high-speed performance allows airline operators to interchange fleet timetables with jet aircraft on 500nm routes. The aircraft can carry 50 passengers to destinations over 1,000nm in a flight time of three hours.

SAAB 2000 VARIANTS
The Saab 2000 AEWC aircraft is being developed as an airborne early warning and control variant equipped with a spine mounted Ericsson Erieye PS-890 side looking reconnaissance radar.

The Saab 2000FI is a flight inspection mission aircraft developed for the Japan Civil Aviation Bureau.

SAAB 2000 FLIGHT DECK
The aircraft is equipped with a Rockwell Collins Pro Line 4 avionics suite with integrated avionics processor (IAP), an engine indication and crew alerting system (EICAS) and a traffic alert and collision avoidance system (TCAS). The flight control systems include an attitude heading and reference system (AHRS) and a digital air data system (DADS).

The navigation suite includes an inertial reference system, a Rockwell Collins WR-840 solid-state weather radar with an optional turbulence detection radar. The cockpit has Swedlow electrically heated windscreen panels.

SAAB 2000 DESIGN
The design of the Saab 2000 is based on the Saab 340, but with a longer fuselage (27.28m versus 19.73m) and larger wing (55.74m³ versus 41.81m³). The 16.7m-long, 2.16m-wide cabin, fitted by Standard AIM Aviation (UK), is configured in a single aisle, three abreast arrangement for 50 to 58 passengers.

The pressurised and air conditioned cabin is equipped with an Ultra Electronics active noise control system. The aircraft is equipped with a Pacific Scientific fire detection system, a Kidde Graviner fire extinguishing system, a Hamilton Standard Recircair air conditioning and environmental control system which uses engine bleed air.

SAAB 2000 ENGINES
The aircraft is powered by two Rolls-Royce Allison AE 2100A turboprop engines, each rated at 3,096kW and fitted with Lucas Aerospace full authority digital engine control (FADEC). The engine cowlings are manufactured by Westland and Hispano-Suiza.

The six-bladed Dowty propellers, type R381, are constant speed propellers with auto-feathering and reverse pitch. The blades are fitted with electrical de-icing.

Two integral fuel tanks installed in the outer wing have a total usable capacity of 5,300 litres. The fuel system is fitted with an overwing gravity refuelling station in each wing and one pressure refuelling station in the starboard wing.

A Sundstrand auxiliary power unit provides power for engine starting and for the air conditioning system

SAAB 2000 - SPECIFICATION
Dimensions
Length 27.28m
Fuselage diameter 2.31m
Height 7.73m
Wingspan 24.76m
Tailplane span 10.36m
Cabin Dimensions
Cabin volume 52.7m³
Cabin length 16.70m
Cabin width 2.16m
Cabin height 1.83m
Baggage compartment 10.2m³
Weights
Empty operating weight 13,800kg
Maximum payload 5,900kg
Fuel 4,250kg
Take-off weight 22,800kg
Engines
Type 2 x Rolls-Royce Allison AE 2100A turboprop
Rating 3,096kW each
Performance
Long range cruise speed 594km/h
Maximum cruise speed at 25,000ft 685km/h
Service ceiling 9,450m
Take off to 11m 1,290m
Landing from 15m 1,243m

[Soldier]

adSH. I am doubtful if the deal for SAAB will move any forward for using it as an AEW platform. Besides as per link, the engines are Roll-Royce, again an american engine. Don't you think that even getting a major non-Nato ally status for Pakistan does not automatically mean sanctioning automatic sale of the hightech aircraft with TOT or without, specially knowing about the past track record of Pakistan, where Chinese are secretly allowed to look, feel, fly and copy. The sale of Saab may materilazie only as a Passenger Aircraft. Use of it as a military platform i.e. something like AWACS or PHALCONS seems to be a bit too much of a talk. PIA isplanning to buy passenger aircraft from SAAB and Field Marshal is getting all worked up for using it as some airforce platform to flame, he knows who... :D:

[mysterious]

Dont be so pessimistic Soldier! I hope you know for sure what MNNA status means! As long as Pakistan is helping US in the war on terror and remains on the US' good side, anything is possible to come Pakistan's way. :smokingc:

[adsH]

i think the Saab is not a good platform for the AWACS its Prop the RR engine is British, soldier !!


I think the most likely Pakistan AWAC platform would be the Airbus. It is possible that PAK may get access to Centry Equipment, but it might be older Tech Version. So they will have to decide to either go for the Uptodate Eyriee or Old USAF discard ed Stuff!!. Either of them might not stand up that well against the Falcons. But these should be sufficient till China would have its own AWAC system(which would be available to PAF). so its just a matter of time!! So i guess old Free Centry systems is the way to go for PAF in the Short runn!!

[Soldier]

i think the Saab is not a good platform for the AWACS its Prop the RR engine is British, soldier !!


I think the most likely Pakistan AWAC platform would be the Airbus. It is possible that PAK may get access to Centry Equipment, but it might be older Tech Version. So they will have to decide to either go for the Uptodate Eyriee or Old USAF discard ed Stuff!!. Either of them might not stand up that well against the Falcons. But these should be sufficient till China would have its own AWAC system(which would be available to PAF). so its just a matter of time!! So i guess old Free Centry systems is the way to go for PAF in the Short runn!!

Well my mistake, I forgot RollsRoyce was British... To rest of your statement I agree completely as it is more near the truth.

[adsH]

i think the Saab is not a good platform for the AWACS its Prop the RR engine is British, soldier !!


I think the most likely Pakistan AWAC platform would be the Airbus. It is possible that PAK may get access to Centry Equipment, but it might be older Tech Version. So they will have to decide to either go for the Uptodate Eyriee or Old USAF discard ed Stuff!!. Either of them might not stand up that well against the Falcons. But these should be sufficient till China would have its own AWAC system(which would be available to PAF). so its just a matter of time!! So i guess old Free Centry systems is the way to go for PAF in the Short runn!!

Well my mistake, I forgot RollsRoyce was British... To rest of your statement I agree completely as it is more near the truth.

:lol the americans don't have the Patience to Manufacture an Article such as a Phantom RR. Such quality such precision!! such attentions to detail. if you look at the older BMW models prior to BMW's takeover the British RR, the BMW was not of the best of quality, but now after its adaptations from the RR Manufacturing Abilities, the BMW's interiors are second to only the RR's. RR's Employes are the only factory workers that actually come dressed in three piece suites. BMW' CEO is and was always in love with RR production quality, reason why he neve changed its style of doing business even after a takover.