Lets Compare a 1995 mig-29 and a fc-1 2005

[Libyan]

Someone said

"Yeah, the newest JF-17 and the oldest Mig-29 cost the same. The JF-17 will obviously have superior avionics, radar, EW suite and a pilot-friendly cockpit compared to the Mig-29."



Lets compare the two aircrafts
Mig-29 http://www.sztana.hu/mig29.jpg (slovene af 1980s mig-29)

Fc-1

http://member.netease.com/~rxj/pic/fc1-1.jpg


and now their avionics

Mig-29 (mid 90's) RP-29 (N019 Sapfir-29) coherent pulse Doppler lookdown/shootdown engagement radar (NATO 'Slot Back'; search range 54 nm; 100 km; 62 miles, tracking range 38 nm; 70 km; 43 miles), target tracking limits 60 degrees up, 38 degrees down, 67 degrees each side, collimated with laser rangefinder; infrared search/track sensor (fighter detection range 8 nm; 15 km; 9.25 miles) forward of windscreen (protected by removable fairing on non-operational flights); R-862 com radio; ARK-19 DF; inertial navigation system; SRO-2 (NATO 'Odd Rods') IFF transponder and SRZ-15 interrogator; Sirena-3 360 degrees radar warning system, with sensors on wingroot extensions, wingtips and port fin. Two SO-69 ECM antennae under conformal dielectric fairings in leading-edge of each wingroot extension; head-up display; and helmet-mounted target designation system for off-axis aiming of air-to-air missiles.


and now the Pakistani variant of the fc-1

FC-1 will be fitted with Italian Grifo S-7 fire-control radar. The Grifo S-7 radar system is specially designed for the FC-1 it has 25 working modes and a non-break-down time of 200 hours. Grifo S-7 radar system is capable of look-down, shoot-down, as well as for ground strike abilities. Pakistani sources also suggest that Pakistan is mostly looking into western avionics to further improve FC-1's capabilities. In addition to that it includes new digital dual fly-by-wire (FBW) system and a true Beyond Visual Range (BVR) attack capability.

FC-1 include a 25° field of view HUD, two multi-functional displays and INS/GPS (Global Positioning System

(it is worth noting the Pakistanis havent supplied the technical ability of the Italian grifo radar which is)
believed to be able to detect an aircraft at 55 miles out and scan and track at 35 miles out!


CONGRATULATIONS PAKISTAN AND ITALY !

in the year 2005 you were able to match the technical ability of a russian derived radar from 1965 (first aircraft fitted with sapfir)

[adsH]

CONGRATULATIONS PAKISTAN AND ITALY !

in the year 2005 you were able to match the technical ability of a russian derived radar from 1965 (first aircraft fitted with sapfir)


how did you find out the tech specs of the JF-17 (avionics package) i thought the details were state secret teh Griffo S7 is undisclosed and still under development and trials, the Modular Decopled Avionics of the JF-17 are similar but less sophisticated to the one fitted on the Mirage 5ET ROSE 3 Config. i sense your attitude as sheer hatred for anyone who is working there Arses off, atleast the Pakistani are using there head, unlike some one here !!!
The PAF avionics would have a Power PC based system so they can develop the system by continuos software upgrades that would suggest sophisticated AI systems. the fire controls systems uses the most upto date BIOS, i don't see how you can compare the AC at all to a half a century old Piece of junk it(old mig 29) might just work out for backword country.

[mysterious]

I think Libyan had too much American or British wine last night or something! :D

[adsH]

I think Libyan had too much American or British wine last night or something! :D

Myst thats not fare US and Uk never criticize Pakistan for developing any thing!! i know they will always Criticize pakistan on Nukes. but thats all. i think Libyan had abit too much of French Wine tHe french really do think they have it all going for them, one reason why they don't have-many friends in the world, the rest of the world aint good enough for them.
i think the Lybian has either got a different identity, one he would rather not disclose i.e. a different nationality then the one he wants every one to seem he has. or he has got something seriously against Pakistan!!. now i know what hes going to do hes going to lay off the bashes by pretending to discuss different issue till couple of weeks butt the he will get backat it !!

[mysterious]

I just made that comment to tease him for his country's unrelenting bed warming with the US and UK these days! :D

[Pathfinder-X]

Libyan!!!! didn't i tell you to stop drinking all those vodka?? look at yourself now, all :drunk1 up and saying crazy BS on the forum!!

juz kidding mate!! :D:

the FC-1 might not be much, but it suits the PAF needs and that is the important thing. It's how an equipment suits your needs. And of course the PAF realize the FC-1 can't compete with the latest fighters, they are already considering upgrades for it.

[mysterious]

What people forget is that Jf-17 is PAF's second line fighter/the bulk fighter and not the front-line aircraft. That's why the PAF is still looking for a front-line ac so that it can form its bite!

[adsH]

What people forget is that Jf-17 is PAF's second line fighter/the bulk fighter and not the front-line aircraft. That's why the PAF is still looking for a front-line ac so that it can form its bite!

i think the J-10 are the Bite" the chinese are giving away alot more with the AC then the western Sources and for alot less. did you read AFM this month apparently PAK helped out in the J-10 avionics upgrade !!! and they PAF have confirmed the J-10 are available to them but PAF has its own Avionics that it would like to incorporate!! the new Chinese J-10 avionic upgrade is all ready and it will be integrated into the J-10 around 2005 its being tested at the moment. according to PAF the Chinese Impressed PAF when they promised to upgrade the Avionics and they ended up doing it in a short space of time with PAF assistance ofcource. the Chinese are clever and hardworking !!!

[fieldmarshal]

the j-10 is a good ac and sems like a good platform.....but i think Paf should wait till the twin engine j-10 is out cuz i think that will be a even better ac than the current varient..........they should just now concentrate on the thunder nad the aqusition of second hand f-16s with mlu upgrades

[adsH]

apperntly PAF is Talking about 20 new generation F-16 too probably block 50 or 60 what ever is available to them when it is available

[Libyan]

Yeah I see a lot of jokes, You pakistanis can make those jokes all you want,

Im a Libyan we were only colonial subjects (and even then there was resistance) for a very short period of time, we have never been slaves.

you however pride yourself on speaking urdu, a tongue only of poetry, [MOD: Lets be nice and respectful of other people, culture and societies???]

You call yourself Muslims but you comment on me (your muslim Brother) as a drunk?

Go ahead make fun of ghadaffi for kissing up to america and the uk, but what has musharaaf and your national leaders allways done?

atleast we Libyans can remember a different time, your great great grandfathers grandfathers
father were the last ones to see an independant nation.


as for the Grifo s7
in the last abu dhabi/defense exibition
the speaker for galileo avionica or fiar stated that the Grifo s7 will be in the same category as their f-16/u Grifo 2000 Grifo radar which has 25 modes, 200 hrs between breakdowns and range of 68nm and scan and track at 35 miles!

[lalith prasad]

jf17 should be compared to mig29ovt or mig29kub instead of the basic mig29 .jf17 is definitely a prettier looking aircraft whereas performancewise mig29 is superior it has several spped to altitude records .also compare it with mig29sniper

[mysterious]

Yeah I see a lot of jokes, You pakistanis can make those jokes all you want,

Im a Libyan we were only colonial subjects (and even then there was resistance) for a very short period of time, we have never been slaves.

you however pride yourself on speaking urdu, a tongue not only of poetry,but also of slavery.

You call yourself Muslims but you comment on me (your muslim Brother) as a drunk?

Go ahead make fun of ghadaffi for kissing up to america and the uk, but what has musharaaf and your national leaders allways done?

atleast we Libyans can remember a different time, your great great grandfathers grandfathers
father were the last ones to see an independant nation.

LOL. You only have to read some facts to know that all that you just wrote was nothing but B.S. :smokingc: Musharraf and Gaddafi have, like a billion differences and cannot be equated. He sold out his country (namely nuclear ambitions) just to add himself to the 'good guys' list of the US or the 'west' in general. Musharraf hasnt compromised on any 'national' (specially national security) issues for America or for that matter any other country. Urdu, a language of slavery? Hmmm, what kinda history books do they teach you guys from in schools over there? ;)

[adsH]

Yeah I see a lot of jokes, You pakistanis can make those jokes all you want,

Im a Libyan we were only colonial subjects (and even then there was resistance) for a very short period of time, we have never been slaves.

you however pride yourself on speaking urdu, a tongue not only of poetry,but also of slavery.

You call yourself Muslims but you comment on me (your muslim Brother) as a drunk?

Go ahead make fun of ghadaffi for kissing up to america and the uk, but what has musharaaf and your national leaders allways done?

atleast we Libyans can remember a different time, your great great grandfathers grandfathers
father were the last ones to see an independant nation.

LOL. You only have to read some facts to know that all that you just wrote was nothing but B.S. :smokingc: Musharraf and Gaddafi have, like a billion differences and cannot be equated. He sold out his country (namely nuclear ambitions) just to add himself to the 'good guys' list of the US or the 'west' in general. Musharraf hasnt compromised on any 'national' (specially national security) issues for America or for that matter any other country. Urdu, a language of slavery? Hmmm, what kinda history books do they teach you guys from in schools over there? ;)

hey comeonn guys lets slay off Lybian here he seems tensed out all-these attacks on him!! hey Lybian i am really sorry i am !!, ok as far as saying Urdu is a Language of slavery your abit wrong on that its the opposite Urdu was the language of the high class rulers of india who were obsessed with Poetry hence the Evolution-of the language that became so beautiful !! Indians still regard it as there language there Literature is-still vastly written in this Language. Hindi is a nice language but not remotely as extensive and accessible as Urdu. HIndi has been influenced by Urdu to great extent thats the reason why Indian and Pakistanis can communicate so easily without feeling alien in each others cultures.

Once again i apologize for my behavior !!

[gf0012-aust]

:cop :cop

Settle down all, time to exhale.

Just because someone says something that you disagree with does not warrant responses that mock them.

It's an egalitarian society in here, lets try and keep it that way.

:cop :cop

[adsH]

:cop :cop

Settle down all, time to exhale.

Just because someone says something that you disagree with does not warrant responses that mock them.

It's an egalitarian society in here, lets try and keep it that way.

:cop :cop

yeah GF !! but libyan came inn with an attitude and his message was very provoking i guess everyone should now settle down.

[WebMaster]

Guys, if Libyan is from libya it does not give you any right to punish him for crimes of Gaddafi. Lets leave Gaddafi out when discussing with Libyan.

And Libyan, tiger take it easy. No need to get all worked up.

[Please continue with the discussion]

[adsH]

actaully urdu is speaken only in andhra pradesh in india that too only in hyderabad .so it is not that common .tha script is arabic but the dialogue is hindi with a lot of persian words.si it is not quite that common in india among the locals but literary form it is quite well developed .it is a very beautiful language


the FC-1 i think shoulf be alot lighter in a combat scenario however the level of manuverablity is still un tested, The mig is an old platform its alot heavyier i would assume it has none of teh exsoctic materials that would be in teh New SU series. teh FC-1 is no star either PAF has been very modest about this, simply put a 3rd generation Mid tech level fighter. Paf has installed much more advance Avionics and radars on the Mirage 3 and 5 platforms, is any one aware of the Rose 3 config apparently it has (FLIR)on it an some more AI based system realy upto date.

[Libyan]

lets see 1 rd-33 engine aircraft can outrun a twin engined rd-33 aircraft??

The thrust to weight will be in the mig-29s favor by a large margin.

[srirangan]

And has the radar system been decided for the JF-17? Last I heard it was still pending..

[gf0012-aust]

my opinion is that JF-17 will outrun any type of MIG-29 ;)

sorry P.A.F. the power to weight ratio will probably be a bit in the Fulcrums favour.

The JF-17 might try to keep up, but I suspect it would be having the aviation equivalent of an asthma attack. ;)

[adsH]

my opinion is that JF-17 will outrun any type of MIG-29 ;)

sorry P.A.F. the power to weight ratio will probably be a bit in the Fulcrums favour.

The JF-17 might try to keep up, but I suspect it would be having the aviation equivalent of an asthma attack. ;)

GF it was never designed for high speeds PAF admitted that, First off all its designed for Air to ground missions and if need be Air to air. no one willbe out running any one once inside PAF territory. the JF-17 will be in numbers about 150 -200 of them placed around the PAF terratory in forward Operational Backward operational-and Central Operational Bases. at that point Maneuverability and missile armaments would count. I am assuming since the Mig has two engines and older versions of the same JF-17 engines, it would require alot more refueling then the JF-17 i doubt it would be able to put up a fight for long when it would be Ambushed By loads of JF-17 and then The Grippens. and then the F-16 if the need came. JF-17 is not an attack or for intrusions there are others in PAF inventory that can do the job better this AC will be used within the territory.

[gf0012-aust]

GF it was never designed for high speeds PAF admitted that

adsH, but we aren't talking about that either. We are talking about power to weight ratio, which is a completely different beast.

it's a bit like someone who gets excited about the top speed of a car, whereas the driver understands that it's going to be the car with the most torque that will be important for an uphill race under pressure... ;)

top speed doesn't mean much in a plane. A Mig-25/31 has a high max top speed, but it can't supercruise at it, and it can't sustain it without shaking itself to bits, whereas an SR-71 can sit on Mach 3 for 90% of its flight time with no stress. One is designed to sprint, one is a long distance runner.

I know what I'd pick. The most powerful, sustained power platform, and 2 engines gives you load balanced absolute thrust with a good power to weight combo.

Most people tend to get excited at top speeds - and it's not a good measurement for operation effectiveness. If you can load the sucker up with weapons till its wings are ready to fall off, and it still outclimbs and outranges the "fancypants" opposition - then it's a no brainer.

As a bad analogy, thats why Prowlers were more effective muli-tasking platforms than F-5's.

[adsH]

Thnx for all that explanation but, it seems like you know alot about the Mig 29 would you happen to know how many times a Mig 29 has to refuel or lets take it this way how often will it need refueling during a Patrol. Don't get me wrong i am sure the Mig would out perform JF-17 any day, and specially with those israeli Electronics it would just be an overkill. but i still think when it will come to air to air combat with inn PAF territory it will remain at a disadvantage. I am not sure what a Mig 29 is used for interception or interdiction. but one thing i do know its a well desinged platform for an era that has passed.

asides from this topic i have actually read this some where that the New JSF or is it the raptor wil have sutained super-cruise capability at 1.5 mach.what advantage will that give to it. i think it will be able to sprint away and then maintain its lead with other AC chasing it (Chasing it !! Highly unlikely) but just assuming its trying to escape it sprints at high mach the other AC follows and both start over heating. both reduce Speed but raptor drops to Super-cruise speed and the other AC drops to sub sonic speed so the Raptor can actually out runn any AC right.

[gf0012-aust]

would you happen to know how many times a Mig 29 has to refuel or lets take it this way how often will it need refueling during a Patrol

How long is a piece of string?? ;)

The easiest way to show the opportunity difference is as follows:

Larger twin aircraft tend to be able to have a higher and more varied weapons load out - simplistically, more bombs/missiles available to put on target

They have a longer range, hence a longer loiter time at short attack runs

Their size invariably means that their EW/onboard radar systems have greater power, depth and discrimination. Hence they can stay and fight more on their own terms against a smaller OPFOR platform with less capability. They are not as dependant on an integrated controller, once you couple them up with an effective GCI or AWACs then the numbers start to shift in their favour.

It's why sortie rates, maintenance and logistics are the combination killers to efficiency. A more reliable platform, with less logistics demands, greater turn around times etc will have an advantage over a platform that may carry more, but be less reliable. Then you have to add in doctrine efficiency, pilot capability etc...

The continental structure of India points towards a larger long range striker as being more to their advantage. As an example, this is because they can deploy aircraft from the other side of the country concurrently and escalate the tempo accordingly. Pakistan on the other hand lacks the same continental advantage, so it would seem to favour a platform that dominates in point defence, short haul intercept etc...

It's very difficult to just compare both countries on a platform to platform basis, the geography alone dictates differing air-battle doctrines. Similarly the Navy ORBAT for both nations is also affected by geographical imperatives.



It's an enormously long "piece of string"

[lalith prasad]

mig 29 ovt has rd93 engines with tvc.I dont think the smt has the tvc capability.

[Salman78]

I'd say they would be evenly matched although mig-29 is always short on fuel and carrying fuel tanks takes a toll on its manouverability.

[lalith prasad]

mig29s latest variants have conformal fuel tanks.

[Salman78]

Radar selection for JF-17 is still pending...

Twin engines only mean better performance and thrust to weight ratio. It dosnt translate into increased speed or Mach number or in some cases acceleration.

This teaming up should NOT be tolerated by Moderaters on this Forum...

[The Watcher]

Radar selection for JF-17 has been made. Its Grifo-s7. Go read the article in defence magazine scans.

[Salman78]

Grifo S7 is not going to be JF-17's standard radar. PAF might acquire a few of them so they can test the systems. It might end up in F-7PG as its a small radar and can fit in the nose cone of a F-7. So chill, wait and watch...

[umair]

That my friend is the Griffo-7pg, not the S-7.The S-7 is an improved and advanced version of the Griffo-2000(used in NATO standard F-16 MLUs)