Lets widen our Tactical/Strategic Knowhow

[zulqarnain]

Hi all Members,
I am starting this thread which is basically aimed at enlighting us on the explanation of various aspects related to tactics and strategy. As a matter of fact I, alone, can not make this thread a success and therefore contribution from all members is requested. The endeavour is to analyse the changes required in the face of an emerging new trend in the warfare.It can be in the form of merely discussions or supplementing your view point with the related links and articles etc... So here I go.....Hope you enjoy....
Question 1
What are the dictating factors for converting main effort into a secondary and auxialliary efforts and what are the planning and coordinating actions required during the transition period.Also explain the conditions which must be fulfilled for conversion of main into secondary/auxilliary efforts. Please shoot your responses.


[ADMIN NOTE: You can't use BB CODES in thread subject.]

[srirangan]

*listening to this post, interesting topic*

[gf0012-aust]

Hi all Members,
I am starting this thread which is basically aimed at enlighting us on the explanation of various aspects related to tactics and strategy. As a matter of fact I, alone, can not make this thread a success and therefore contribution from all members is requested. The endeavour is to analyse the changes required in the face of an emerging new trend in the warfare.It can be in the form of merely discussions or supplementing your view point with the related links and articles etc... So here I go.....Hope you enjoy....
Question 1
What are the dictating factors for converting main effort into a secondary and auxialliary efforts and what are the planning and coordinating actions required during the transition period.Also explain the conditions which must be fulfilled for conversion of main into secondary/auxilliary efforts. Please shoot your responses.

You haven't defined any scenario. This is a question without any background applied as a reference point.

1) define theatre
2) what consititutes "effort de main"
3) what constitutes a secondary stage
4) why is there a need for a secondary stage (ie explain the conflict scenario and the disposition of forces that have led to the primary stage)
5) Nature of the blue force
6) Nature of the red force
7) Describe the geopolitics of both sides.


It's far too open a question without parameters being set and defined.

[zulqarnain]

Hi gf0012,
Sir, probably i have failed to make you understand the question. Well apparently its not a situation oriented question. simply it involved clarity of conceptual parameters. you have to view this question on the basic conceptual level. I understand the requirement you have posed however following simplification may help you and the others.
- In every tactical land operation a force is divided into a main and a secondary/auxiliary efforts, may it be attack or defence operation.
- A situation may arise where secondary effort starts bearing fruits of its effort and logically demands the exploitation of success against the adversary.
-For the time being lets keep it away from the scenarios like geopolitical, theatre and other factors which may not be conflicting to explain the concept in general.
- The efforts do not relate to the stages of the time as primary or secondary stage rather to the distribution of the forces directed to particular targets.
I hope now you shall be able to generate your response.
As far as my opinion is concerned, I think the question has following parts,
- Identification of conditions which dictate/necessitate conversion of main into secondary.
- What all planning and coordination is required during the phase of its transformation of secondary into main.
- What all are the pre-requisites for conversion of main into secondary.
I would like to put forward my view point as under,
- First the dictating conditions
-- first is that once secondary has gained considerable success that it necessitates exploitation of the same success which shall render the adversary face serious paralysis.
-- Main seems to be helpless in proving its potency even in future.
-Secondly the planning and coordination,
--Keep an intimate knowledge of the adversary's reaction capability to prepare the safe guards.
--Coordination well before the start of the operation to work out the contingencies of transformation so as to save time.
--General estimates of the casualty and logistic effort which shall be required to be catered for during the such transition.
--Taking care of the affiliation and aspect of command and control element.
-Third portion of the question relates to the pre-requisites which shall meet the requirement of conversion of secondary into main effort.
--Avalability of suitable communication infrastructure like the laterals and roads and tracks.
--Time available for the mission whether it allows such conversion.
-- The availability of considerable potent reserves which are initially placed as poised towards either of the efforts.
Now please build up your thought and give it a try to put us wise on the subject.

[zulqarnain]

Hi Members,
It seems you all are not interested in this question. well the purpose was to generate some good discussion. I would request the forum members to introduce new threads in the forum even if they don't like this particular thread. however this should never mean that i am disappointed with the response. lets try another question.
-Please cast your opinion on the Netcentric Warfare and in what way it shall influence the current doctrine of the land forces? What should be the strategy of a country to fight against this positive form of asymmetry?
Thanks and take care.

[WebMaster]

Zulqarnain, there are 8 other forums full of activity. Please participate there, get comfy with the members so that its easier for them to understand your concerns. It will take time for this new forum (Military Strategy & Historical Events ) to get popular among DT members. ;)

[zulqarnain]

Oh sorry for that and now i shall do that
By the way thanks

[Pathfinder-X]

Hi gf0012,
Sir, probably i have failed to make you understand the question. Well apparently its not a situation oriented question. simply it involved clarity of conceptual parameters. you have to view this question on the basic conceptual level. I understand the requirement you have posed however following simplification may help you and the others.
- In every tactical land operation a force is divided into a main and a secondary/auxiliary efforts, may it be attack or defence operation.
- A situation may arise where secondary effort starts bearing fruits of its effort and logically demands the exploitation of success against the adversary.
-For the time being lets keep it away from the scenarios like geopolitical, theatre and other factors which may not be conflicting to explain the concept in general.
- The efforts do not relate to the stages of the time as primary or secondary stage rather to the distribution of the forces directed to particular targets.
I hope now you shall be able to generate your response.
As far as my opinion is concerned, I think the question has following parts,
- Identification of conditions which dictate/necessitate conversion of main into secondary.
- What all planning and coordination is required during the phase of its transformation of secondary into main.
- What all are the pre-requisites for conversion of main into secondary.
I would like to put forward my view point as under,
- First the dictating conditions
-- first is that once secondary has gained considerable success that it necessitates exploitation of the same success which shall render the adversary face serious paralysis.
-- Main seems to be helpless in proving its potency even in future.
-Secondly the planning and coordination,
--Keep an intimate knowledge of the adversary's reaction capability to prepare the safe guards.
--Coordination well before the start of the operation to work out the contingencies of transformation so as to save time.
--General estimates of the casualty and logistic effort which shall be required to be catered for during the such transition.
--Taking care of the affiliation and aspect of command and control element.
-Third portion of the question relates to the pre-requisites which shall meet the requirement of conversion of secondary into main effort.
--Avalability of suitable communication infrastructure like the laterals and roads and tracks.
--Time available for the mission whether it allows such conversion.
-- The availability of considerable potent reserves which are initially placed as poised towards either of the efforts.
Now please build up your thought and give it a try to put us wise on the subject.

Again your question is "jumping all over the place". Each land operation is different, and so is the requirement and tactics deployed. You simply cannot subsititude the same strategy and equipment you would use in mountain warfare scenario into a jungle one, because jungle warfare would require a whole set of new strategy. Before you ask these you must first give us a scenario which to base our response on. So before you ask, give us the following

-Theatre scenario which the operation will take place at

-Nations or factions and which are involved

-Size of conflict

[gf0012-aust]

Thanks path, for a moment I was wondering whether I was just being picky.. ;)

[srirangan]

lol

[zulqarnain]

Hi members,
I you all are right. My question had enough jumps. thanx to Pathfinder who is doing good to show me the guided path,lol. So here is the scenario.
-The theatre of operation is desert with temperate climate(Suppose)
-The Belligerent commanders are Rommel and Monty playing there trumps in North Africa.
-Rommel is operating with a corps plus depleted elements of Italians and is in the defensive mode whereas Monty has started off with his main and secondary/auxialliary efforts. i think this much would be as per your requirement. By the way Wisdom Comes After Suffering.
Enjoy.

[Pathfinder-X]

Hi members,
I you all are right. My question had enough jumps. thanx to Pathfinder who is doing good to show me the guided path,lol. So here is the scenario.
-The theatre of operation is desert with temperate climate(Suppose)
-The Belligerent commanders are Rommel and Monty playing there trumps in North Africa.
-Rommel is operating with a corps plus depleted elements of Italians and is in the defensive mode whereas Monty has started off with his main and secondary/auxialliary efforts. i think this much would be as per your requirement. By the way Wisdom Comes After Suffering.
Enjoy.

lol, that's what im here for :D:

now to the battle scenario:

since the conflict is in open desert armor unit would have alot of use in this scenario. In Rommel's case the best case of action would to send out small scout units and planes(if it's available) to sniff out Monty's forces movements. Once they found out the main direction of the attack, counter it with armor and artillery support at the front. Let infantry units flank Monty's main attack force on the sides. Once the attack is repulsed, chase the retreating enemies a small distance to worn them down a little more.

-Rommel's tanks would be the main player in this kind of theatre
-Infantry unit would serve in a support role, the open terrain of the desert determined that

i can only tell that much at this point because the info you provided is not enough. Try to give me info on number of forces on both sides, number of armor and artillery, and what kind of support is available.

[Awang se]

How about this

Theatre

tropical conditions with light monsoon rain. battle area is partly rubber, oil palm and pineapple plantations and secondary jungle while partly on urban settings. There is a river flowing from east to west with one bridge. the river is 200 m wide average for 10km left and right of the bridge. There is small village on the south side and a city on the north side. River flow speed is about 15kmh. There is a hill on the south side with it's peak about 3 km from the river and at the height of 150m. There is only one properly pave road on the south side that is the main road that cross the bridge into the city.

Force compositions

Attacking- 2 infantry battalions with a company of AIFV in support. Artillery consist of a a platoon of 105 guns and several 83mm mortars.
air support 2 Hawk 200 with freefall 500lb bomb 10 minutes away.

Defending- 1 Infantry battalions, no known armored support. Artillery consist of 83 and 60mm mortar in the hidden position all along the river, strength unknown. A sandbag bunker on the north side with HMG emplacement and AT weaponry, probably guided type. unknown number of Manpads. no air support available.

I'm not quite sure it's complete, so ring me if u got questions.

[Pathfinder-X]

How about this

Theatre

tropical conditions with light monsoon rain. battle area is partly rubber, oil palm and pineapple plantations and secondary jungle while partly on urban settings. There is a river flowing from east to west with one bridge. the river is 200 m wide average for 10km left and right of the bridge. There is small village on the south side and a city on the north side. River flow speed is about 15kmh. There is a hill on the south side with it's peak about 3 km from the river and at the height of 150m. There is only one properly pave road on the south side that is the main road that cross the bridge into the city.

Force compositions

Attacking- 2 infantry battalions with a company of AIFV in support. Artillery consist of a a platoon of 105 guns and several 83mm mortars.
air support 2 Hawk 200 with freefall 500lb bomb 10 minutes away.

Defending- 1 Infantry battalions, no known armored support. Artillery consist of 83 and 60mm mortar in the hidden position all along the river, strength unknown. A sandbag bunker on the north side with HMG emplacement and AT weaponry, probably guided type. unknown number of Manpads. no air support available.

I'm not quite sure it's complete, so ring me if u got questions.

hmmm........let's suppose the attacker is the attacking the defender from the south of the river.

defending side:
move troops back into the jungle about 50 meters from the river side, so attacking force will be having difficult time moving their armor to support their troops and hard for attacker's air support to see their target in the trees. then the company is to entrench themselves into a arc stretching 150 to 200 meters, about 100 meters from the bridge and facing it . Use another company to guard the mortar positions. Use the mortar to give fire support to the company guarding the bridge and keep the last company in reserve in case any postion along the river or arc needs to be reinforced. Place anti-personal mine about 50 meters in front of the entrenched arc. also deploy most of ATGMs and man portable SAMs to the two companies in the arc and river side. And finally wait for attackers to cross the bridge and come into the fortification to worn themselves out.

-because the defenders moved into the jungle the attacker's IFV will not be able to support them. So the attacker might be forced to use foot soldiers as their means of ground attack.

-attacker's air support will be focused on destroying the forces in the arc and artillery postions along the river side. So deploying man portable SAM is neccesary to keep them away. Also because the defender is inside the trees they won't become a easy target to enemy air support.

-if attacker needs to overcome the defender they must go across the river from the bridge, there they will be met with a enemy that has entrenched down and fully prepared for them.

-Infantry will play the main role of this operation as armor cannot move through jungle very easily, the best IFV can do is fire into the trees hoping to hit something.

anyone would like to post a battle plan for the attackers??

[adeel]

Hello All,
Im a first time poster but a long time lurker of this forum. I decided to break my silence after seeing the scenarios posted here. First off I do not have any formal military training (arm chair general) but hey Ill give this a shot.

If I was the attacker I would use my superiority in mobility and firepower to deal with the entrenched forces. I understand jungle is difficult for maneauver and that AIFvs will be inhibited greatly, but I believe I can use my 105mm arty to pound the defense at a distance, hopefully softening up the fortified enemy somewhat. I would only bring my air support into play after a sustained pummelng with arty, and hopefully after MANPADS have been rendered useless due to the shelling.

If my AIFVs have any kind of main gun with decent firepower I can also bring those into the direct fire role, If they are armed with ATGMs they can also be brought into bunker busting duties, the OPFOR has no armor to speak of, the ATGMS can be used agaisnt the defensive positions instead.

If possible maybe a river crossing further upstream can take place by a small group to flank the defenders. The gentlemen posted that the river is moving at 15klicks, I do not know if that is to fast for a river crossing or if the AIFVs can ford water moving at that speed. But if it is possible I would send them. This flanking force would only have to be about 2 platoons in strenght and would be tasked with eliminating MANPADS and generally providing a headache to the enemies rear.

I would began my primary attack after sufficient arty pounding and airstrikes have taken their toll, perhaps the enemy will be sufficiently demoralized after sustained bombardment and not fight effectively.

Just my 2 cents folks, great forum hope to participate often

Adeel

[zulqarnain]

HI MEMBERS,
Well I think that this Forum has started paying dividends as it has managed to tempt Adeel to break his silence. :D:
By the way I am listening to the scenarios and abreast with the responses generated by the members. Its a great learning by listening to your view points. Good luck and keep posting your responses or questions if you have any. I am coming up with another question very soon sir.
Take care and enjoy.

[Pathfinder-X]

Ok let me gives you guys a scenario for a change. Here it goes:

Situation: A group of drug lord-funded rebels in Columbia has taken a dozen foreign tourist hostage and took them deep into jungle. The hostage takers demands the release of of their comrades in Columbian government's custody in exchange for the hostages' safe return. U.S military has receive orders from the president to free the hostages since the rebels has failed to live up their promise in few earlier incidents.

Terrain: Hot and humid jungle enviroment. Thick vegetations has reduced visibility no further than 100 meters. A small river, flows from north to south at the center of the map. The river is 24 meters wide and runs about 25km/H. There is one poorly made bridge about 200 meters west from the rebel camp where the hostages is believed to be held. A dirt road starts from the bridge and leads to a town controlled by rebels 80km away at west. The only area suitable for helicopter landing is about 2km the south of the camp.
Note: It is almost impossible to see without NVG at night in the jungle.

Forces compostition: 12 man team of Green Berets and 2 infantry platoon borrowed from the Columbian government will be arriving by choppers. The Green Berets are equipped with eight Car-15s, two M16s with M203 attached, and two SAW. The two Columbian infantry platoons have two 60mm mortars and three LAW launcher with them.

OPFOR: Unkown number of rebels guarding the camp, but intel estimates around 40. Believe to be armed with AK-47s, M16s and RPGs. Around 6 sand bag bunkers with .50cal HMG placed around the camp. Rebels are also believed to be in poccession of a few Stinger SAM so it is not advisable that choppers get close to the camp. Reinforcement might arrive from the town in about 2 hours.


ok guys see what plans you can come up with :D:

[gf0012-aust]

The river is 24 meters wide and runs about 25km/H.

That's not a river, that's a race track :eek

Also:

1) What's the psych profile assessment of the terrorists?
2) Green Berets are normally more heavily gunned up than that
3) The fact that there is a water barrier would lend itself to SEAL insertion as they have broader skillsets
4) How regular is the sat updates for that location?
5) How far is it from friendly airspace?
6) How far is it from the coast?
7) What backup forces are on hold? Also, are the backup forces in transit to the terrorist location at a certain time? eg Z+1 they start to move forward to close the support gap issue??
8) Is the terrorist end game seizure or termination? ie, extreme prejudice issues??

[Pathfinder-X]

That's not a river, that's a race track :eek

Also:

1) What's the psych profile assessment of the terrorists?
2) Green Berets are normally more heavily gunned up than that
3) The fact that there is a water barrier would lend itself to SEAL insertion as they have broader skillsets
4) How regular is the sat updates for that location?
5) How far is it from friendly airspace?
6) How far is it from the coast?
7) What backup forces are on hold? Also, are the backup forces in transit to the terrorist location at a certain time? eg Z+1 they start to move forward to close the support gap issue??
8) Is the terrorist end game seizure or termination? ie, extreme prejudice issues??

oh i forgot to type the water before runs

1. The rebel group have years of experience fighting in skirmishes with the columbian government. They are battle-harden and nearly merciless. They are growing impatient because their demands has not been met, and is now much less hesitant towards killing the hostages.
2.Yes Green Berets are more heavily equipped than I mentioned, besides the small arms a team usually has 4 AT-4 launchers and Thermite grenades. But I did not mention them because there isn't any enemy armor or objectives to destroy in this case.
3. Navy Seals presence in Columbia is very much limited, mainly recruits go there for phase three of their training, however, the Green Berets have conducted several operations in Columbia before so in this case they seem ideal.
4.Intel updates every 5 hours
5. The area is under control of the rebels. It's at least 70km from friendly airspace
6. The range to the coast is 130km
7.Backup forces include another Green Beret team, on stand by at the nearest friendly airbase 80km away, if needed it can arrive in 20 minutes.
8. The ROE towards the rebels is Kill on Sight.

[gf0012-aust]

2.Yes Green Berets are more heavily equipped than I mentioned, besides the small arms a team usually has 4 AT-4 launchers and Thermite grenades. But I did not mention them because there isn't any enemy armor or objectives to destroy in this case.

If I might make a suggestion here. Keep a couple of AT-4's and Thermites for effect.

The issue is to shock, stun and secure. Kinetic effects have a dramatic capability to provide small windows of opportunity to create an opening in the "red forces" concentration.

One assumes that the terrorists have vehicles and trucks to carry around their prisoners and their escorts. You want to isolate their capacity to get away, and you don't need their vehicles anyway, one assumes that you will call in airlift once the area has been dominated or neutralised.

Progressively killing off their transport to get out of the area will be slightly disconcerting for them. ;)

I'd be assuming that you have GB's directing the locals to create mayhem, cause distraction etc while the A and B teams go in and perform the extraction.

[Gremlin29]

Not to rain on anyones parade but hostage rescue isn't exactly the type of mission a SF A-Team would be tasked with. I would be shocked by it anyway. Delta would seem to be a more plausible responder to me.

[gf0012-aust]

Not to rain on anyones parade but hostage rescue isn't exactly the type of mission a SF A-Team would be tasked with. I would be shocked by it anyway. Delta would seem to be a more plausible responder to me.

I guess it was predicated on a "let's run with what ya brung" basis. :)

[Pathfinder-X]

Not to rain on anyones parade but hostage rescue isn't exactly the type of mission a SF A-Team would be tasked with. I would be shocked by it anyway. Delta would seem to be a more plausible responder to me.

yes hostage rescue is not the type of mission SF is tasked with, but they do poccess the capability to carry out this type of mission. and since a few team of SF is stationed in Columbia, they seem to be the logical choice as they can react to the situation faster than Delta.

[manna]

HI , pathfinder you talk too much and raise many doubt but then behave like a numb, why, sorry dont mind but this wat was evident from ur reply of the first situation painted by zulqarnain, he came up with the question as to wat all are those conditions which necessaitate and requires coordinations for the tranfornation of an effort , to another effort i mean secondry to main or auxillary to main , this type of question does not require any particular theatre or scenirio, but u asked, and once it was provided u started of with the developemen of operation , as to how to conter it , which Zulgarnain never asked ,
U seeems to have a fair knowledge about the militry , so can u plz tell us those condition which necessate the changing of efforts , those coordination which are required i mean in relation to time , space adn resources . plz dont mind my aim is to get something from u all , as u all are learned people , and i am a novice , By the way the way u have tackled that situation that shows ur agressiveness, keep it up , but mind u the war is not so easy thing had it been then USA must have been over with her task in iraq and afghanistan i think , but still they are there , which realy tell that war is war, and not a game , it realy ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ok leave it i think i am deverting from the topic so plz put us wise over it , i f u can , thanks
:!: :roll

[neel24neo]

If I might make a suggestion here. Keep a couple of AT-4's and Thermites for effect.

do they really have to"shock and awe"????especially in a hostage rescue scenario???further,wouldnt the grenade launchers suffice to take out soft skinned vehicles?
Thick vegetations has reduced visibility no further than 100 meters
u would be lucky to see beyond a few metres in a tropical rain forest.[/quote]

[Aussie Digger]

Well, what are the objectives, to kill the terrorists or capture them? Obviously the hostages are the main priority, whilst simultaneously neutralising the terrorists. If the objective is to simply to rescue the hostages and kill the terrorists this is (probably) how I would approach it (Pathfinder's scenario) after a whole 10 minutes of thought...

1. Gather as much intell about the terrorists from afar as possible, including continuing the already (apparently) open communications with the terrorists to try and negotiate a peaceful resolution and if unsuccessful at that, use the negotiations to gather as much useful intell information as possible whilst distracting the terrorists from protecting themselves.

2. Use half (6) of the Green Beret team to conduct a close reconnaissance (or close target recconaissance as the Brits call it) on the camp, and provide on site intell, including exact co-ordinates of the fortified positions, (0.50 cal machine guns etc) numbers of terrorists, weapons, equipment, demeanor, routine, camp layout etc, location of hostages and guards, the physical description of where the hostages are being held, ie: in the open, a building of some sort, a pit or cave, whether they are all together, held in separate locations, what they're condition is like (if they are starved and beaten they are unlikey to be able to walk far), etc, etc. Also use recce team to assess likely form up points (FUP's), fire support positions, escape routes, etc for assault teams.

3. The "reserve" special forces unit would be immediately brought into play. (This should give a force of approx 24 GB's and 62 Colombian soldiers). With all due respect to the Colombians, from what I've read of previous missions, they aren't exactly of the highest standard in the world. An IA (immediate action) plan would also be formed, ie: what do we do if hostages start getting capped? As well as a deliberate attack plan.

4. I would form the GB and Colombian soldiers into teams, (or squads if you like) with each squad led by GB soldiers. These teams would then commence training and practising with their pers weapons and equipment on likely assaults and depending on their skills and capabilities and the available intell, would be assigned preliminary roles.

5. After updated intell received and the political approval was given for the mission to go ahead this is what I'd plan. (Bearing in mind this is all theoretical)... After sufficient rehearsals (depending on the amount of time to rehearse) each team would be deployed by helo a long distance away, (maybe 10-15klms, depending on terrrain). Each team would then infil by foot to a pre-arranged and agreed upon lie up point, (LUP) depending on continually updated intell from the RT, the evening prior to the attack. The helo's (and reserve force) would be held in standby only a short flight away and would be (hopefully) of sufficient number to transport all troops, hostages and any captured terrorists. In addition a reserve force (if available, would be mounted on the helo's to help secure the area against rebel attack until the helo's can transport everyone out safely)

6. If a deliberate attack could be conducted I would assign a fire support team (FST) to attack each 0.50cal bunker using anti-armour weapons (AT-4's and LAW's, both have excellent anti-bunker characteristics in addition to anti-armour characteristics) and available machine guns/SAW's. I wouldn't bother with the Mortars at all. You want to rescue hostages not simply kill everyone there, Mortars aren't all THAT accurate and tend to be fairly indiscriminate not to mention lethal...

7. If proper equipment and skillsets were available I would also employ the recce team (RT) as snipers, with specific primary tasking of ensuring survival of hostages until an assault team (AT) can secure the hostages. Snipers would also have the secondary tasking of killing other terrorists and preventing any MANPAD launches should any terrorists escape the "net", when the helo's arrive. Each (FST) is to be primarily tasked with neutralising the bunkers and heavy weapons. Each FST also has secondary taskings of providing direct fire support for the AT's and acting as cut-off groups to ensure (as best as possible) no terrorists are able to escape.

8. My AT's would probably comprise 4 person teams, with a GB leading each team. 40 terrorists would, depending on how they are housed, probably require at least 8 AT's, plus Snipers/RT's, FST's and a reserve/evacuation force. The RTwould comprise 3x 2 man teams, depending on the size and layout of the target area. The FST's would comprise 6x4 man teams, and the reserve force would comprise 4x6 man teams, (due to limited GB's to lead each team and a probable shortage of helo's.

9. After infil, each assault/fire support team leader would conduct a briefing with the RT, at the LUP to obtain a clear picture of the target area and the latest intell. Each team would then be individually briefed by their respective team leader and if the go ahead for the attack was given, each team would move to a designated FUP under cover of darkness.

10. Each team would then spend the night waiting until about an hour before dawn for the attack. The RT would remain in position and keep "eyes on" to ensure that the hostages weren't moved during the night. At a predesignated time, all teams would move into their designated positions, the "starting line" for the attack.

11. The attack would commence simeltaneously with each bunker attacked with anti-armour weapons and GPMG's/SAW's. Each RT would commence killing guards and other terrorists and each AT would race to secure their respective and specific objectives. Each AT would be assigned a respective "finish line" for their assault in order to avoid "blue on blue's".

12. With the hostages now (hopefully) secured, and the bunkers destroyed or the weapons rendered inoperable, the FST's would turn to their tasks of operating as cut off groups and as early warning in case of any "counter attack". A sitrep would be provided and the helo's and reserve force flown in.

13. The reserve force would then assist the FST's to secure the area and the RT's and AT's would go through the processes of providing any first aid/casevac procedures required and ID'ing any remaining (alive) terrorists. The hostages and RT's (who would probably be exhausted), AT's and captured terrorists would then be flown from the area to a secure point. The helo's would return to withdraw the remaining troops from the area.

This is how I would try and plan an assault. I may be forgetting a few things, but it's been a long time since I've actually had to plan an attack. In this forum, I'm also not going to discuss things like recce/comms procedures and other operational information, as such things are vital to allowing these sorts of missions to suceed and most people don't need to know anything about them...

[Pathfinder-X]

HI , pathfinder you talk too much and raise many doubt but then behave like a numb, why, sorry dont mind but this wat was evident from ur reply of the first situation painted by zulqarnain, he came up with the question as to wat all are those conditions which necessaitate and requires coordinations for the tranfornation of an effort , to another effort i mean secondry to main or auxillary to main , this type of question does not require any particular theatre or scenirio, but u asked, and once it was provided u started of with the developemen of operation , as to how to conter it , which Zulgarnain never asked ,
U seeems to have a fair knowledge about the militry , so can u plz tell us those condition which necessate the changing of efforts , those coordination which are required i mean in relation to time , space adn resources . plz dont mind my aim is to get something from u all , as u all are learned people , and i am a novice , By the way the way u have tackled that situation that shows ur agressiveness, keep it up , but mind u the war is not so easy thing had it been then USA must have been over with her task in iraq and afghanistan i think , but still they are there , which realy tell that war is war, and not a game , it realy ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ok leave it i think i am deverting from the topic so plz put us wise over it , i f u can , thanks
:!: :roll

Ok, being the "Numb" that I am, let me tell you that without know the theatre of operation, primary and auxillary cannot be determined. Under different circumstances of the battlefield, logistics and battle strategy will change accordingly and to whatever the nation/faction's equipment availability. In a operation theatre like Afganistan, the role of armor unit will be rendered useless and infantry will be the main attack effort. Also the method of maintaining logistic will be different, trucks used in open terrain will easily be ambushed in the mountains which means air drops or helo transportation will play a heavy role. If I just tell you that there is a war going on and let you determine the main, auxillary efforts without telling you what factions are involved or where it has taken place, would you be able to come up with battle plans?

The U.S is winning wars both in Afganistan and Iraq, resistances level has gone down alot since the major operations ended, which means the PHYOP has paid off. The so called resistance movement you see so much on television is nothing more than a few cells of foreign fighters and the followers of the radical cleric in Najaf. The cleric's militia already agreed to make peace with the coalition forces due to heavy casualties they been sustaining. So that leaves the few foreign fighters who kidnaps civilians instead of fighting U.S forces. Give it a year or two and Iraq will be able to fully function on its own.

[Aussie Digger]

The US Marines and Canadian armed forces don't think Armour is useless in Afganistan. Both have deployed light armoured vehicles for the protection, firepower and mobility they provide. MBT's haven't been deployed mainly due to the difficulties getting them there I should think...

[Pathfinder-X]

My mistake. I should have stated heavy armor.

[umair]

Ok nuff land based armchair generalling.Let's take to the skies!
Scenario:
Airforce blue and red are evenly matched in terms of numbers and technology.
Red has the advantage of strategic depth over blue while it can reach all of blue's major installations relevant to airdefence.Red how ever faces a logistics problem in supplying it's 1st and 2nd tier FOBs which are not scattered and located near a major national highway plus the aircraft are kept concenterated at these bases. .Because of this it has built up huge stockpiles of weapons and fuel in locations situated conveniently close to a highway which runs near it's FOBs but which can be attacked by blue forces once a degree of control has been achieved freely other wise sporadically.Red has a good airdefence SAM network around it's bases but the stockpiles are defended only by AAA and MANPADS with a few mobile sam systems at the largest stockpiles.
Blue has the advantage in the fact that it has it's FOB's located at scattered but logistically reachable places both by road and air.The operational aircraft are well scattered in small sizes with the max strength of a dispersed group being no more than a squadron.Though this raises problems of flights in a package having to select RV points, mission planning problems and problems of interoperaability between different elements in a package.
It's however helped by the fact that there is a good nationwide airdefense system in place with strong defences provided for strategic installations and airbases.FOBs here are defended by mobile SAMs as well as MANPADS and AAA.There is also a very well developed GCI network with real time information about all of blue's AOR available to it's pilots and SAM operators at all times.
Both forces are equipped with AWACS and use a mix of late 3rd to mid 4th generation aircraft majority with datalinking capability.Both are required to give CAS to ground forces as and when necessary as the doctrines of both take the ground forces to be the primary force with other two subservient to it.

Now assuming I have'nt left anything out(you may add or delete or expand upon any of my points) what I want you people to do is hammer out strategies and tactics for both blue and red forces(you may do either one or both of the forces) for
1)An overall airsuperiority campaign
2)Attack on a major FOB
3)CAS mission when the tempo of CAP and OCA has to be raised

[gf0012-aust]

The critical thing is the platforms and weapons loadout. You might need to establish what they are and also if there are numerical limitations.

[umair]

Ok.Blue operates a hi med lo mix of the following aircraft
64 F-16 block52+, 112 F16 A/B MLUs and 160 low end fighters (a mix of F-5Es and Mirage III/V upgraded to carry LGBs ASMs and with a nominal BVR capability)
The high and med end fighters are equipped with all weather day/night precision bombing capability and BVR missiles such as the AIM-120B and AIM-7MH and SuperR-530s.The high enders can also pack HARMS in a SEAD role.
There are numerical limitations because of the blue force's doctrine of being a force usually subservient to the army(this takes away planes from CAP and OCA to CAS) and primarily an airdefence force .The max they can spare for a concerted strike package is 4 aircraft from the hi and med forces with 6 from the low enders at any one time(this is the best they can do).But they have a very good maintanence dept which coupled with a pilot:plane ratio of 3:1 means they have a high sortie turn around rate.
The Reds operate a similar mix but with a slight numerical edge in the high end dept.
48 Su-30 mk2 and 28 Su-27B/UB flankers in the high end area giving it a potent airdefence and strike force.The mid enders consist of 48 Mig-29 FulcrumCs, 80-Mig 27s upgraded for all weather strike.
The low end consists of about 180 Mig-21s with about 2 squadrons having gone an upgrade giving them a nominal BVR capability.
Their weapons are eastern block counters of the weapons employed by force Blue.Their aircraft suffer from the usual russian affliction of poor maintenence and therefore each type has an average of 65% availability at any given time.The pilot:plane ratio is 1.5:1.
OK!I've exhausted my ideas can a proffessional please expand upon these and add new restraints/ideas tactics etc. :help

[gf0012-aust]

Is air battle management capability present for both?, airborne for both or ground controlled? If it's air controlled is it autonomous (like a Phalcon) or as an extended picket (like an Eyrie)???