AFM interview with the PAF ACM

[joker]

Got this from Pakdef.info

The interview should put an end to all the speculation out there on PAFs next generation fighter. Its not going to be the EF, Rafale, M2K-5 or the Gripen but the J10 along with the SD 10.


ACM Kaleem Sadat, AVM Shahzad Aslam (PAF Deputy Chief of Air Operations) & AVM Shahid Lateef (Chief Project Director of the JF 17) interviewed by Alan Warnes.

1) the article has an official table of weapons likely to be integrated... interestingly enough the SD 10 is not listed and instead the Mica and Aspide are.

2) One possiblity for the anti radiation missile is to utilise a BVR weapons but change the seeker.

3) 14 Mirages being upgraded to Rose III standard (to include FLIR and other unmentioned avionics upgrade)

4) Lebanese Mirages being inducted

5) Upgrading the F7Ps with Grifo 7 radar nearly complete

6) F7PGs will be upgraded with Grifo 7PG radar next.

7) A total of 30 K8s planned for for the role of advanced training at Mianwali by 2007... FT5s to be phased out by then.

8) In 2001 the PAF decided to decouple the avionics system from the plaftorm desing of the JF17 thus giving the programme a major boost and the PAF the flexibility to continually update their avionics system in line with new technologies.

9) Will be interfacing the avionics and weapon systems with a modern 1553 (avionics)/1760 (weapons)power PC based mission computerallowing for a glass cockpit. Mission computer will allow for further expansion of aircrafts capabilities.

*FIAR Grifo S radar to be initially integrated with avionics of PT05 and the SD 10 but final decision has yet to be made.

10) the JF17 will undergo 5 upgrades throughout its life including aerial refuelling, IRST, stealth features (ram coating) and improvements in the thrust to weight ratio.

11) J10s most likley the 4th gen fighter.. Paf trying to integrate western sub systems and will include refuelling probe. Western fighters not likely to be inducted due to sanctions.

PAF evaluating both the Chinese AEW and the Erieye

[adsH]

Ohh mann screwed comes to mind, no offense PAF is going Indigenous !! :cop gone are the days of foreign purchases!! actually would be better seems like Kashmir issue should be resolved soon and PAF would have time to upgrade its own Indigenous built AC to advance specs!! what is the avionics PT05 ??

[Londo Molari]

Excellent news. Its about time we stopped relying on backstabbers.

[adsH]

can some one tell me what PT05 look like its abilities,
I can see joker said something about decoupling the avionics developed, so that would mean the integrated solution was further modularized. so each component could be individually be upgraded and integrated with the rest of the package without significant cost and time, Does any one have any further information about these sort of upgrades would the PAF J-10 have similar but more upgraded avionics or would it only surpass JF-17 on Physical abilities. One thing will put every one at ease is that PAF EW suite is Indigenous so no one would know whats coming !! but any ways does any one know the Specs of the PT05. they say that no western AC would be inducted a bold move and a clever one!! no foreign reliance and no foreign reserves transferred outward, this would aid to build a local industry

Power PC " based mission computer assumeing we are talking about widely comercially available Motorola chip

Freescale Semiconductor offers a premier line of award-winning, high-performance PowerPC processors for the computing, networking infrastructure, and telecommunications applications. In the decade since the first PowerPC products entered the market, the PowerPC core architecture has steadily evolved in performance and capability to produce today's powerful MPC74xx processors from Freescale Semiconductor. These PowerPC devices incorporate tens of millions of transistors on a chip and are manufactured in state-of-the-art 130nm silicon-on-insulator (SOI) process technology, migrating soon to 90nm and beyond. A hallmark of the MPC74xx family is its optimal balance of high performance and low power dissipation—delivering gigahertz-class performance at less than 10W—making it an ideal solution for power-sensitive embedded applications. The next-generation of high-performance PowerPC processors will leverage the compatible e600 core and leverage the PowerPC e600 System-on-Chip platform for greater performance and integration.

[gf0012-aust]

Excellent news. Its about time we stopped relying on backstabbers.

and when you speak like that about potential suppliers, you wonder why they lose interest and have no desire to sell to you (even without embargoes)??

[mysterious]

LOL gf; we use those words "after" what they did to us time and again. :smokingc:

[Aussie Digger]

Hmm, they can't get Western fighters due to sanctions, but they can get Western AWACS (ie: Erieye) and western avionics, weapons and radars?

[mysterious]

My explanation to that is that since India now already has its Phalcons on order; Pakistan would not be denied permission to get AWACS or ERIEYE for itself because it would not tilt the balance in Pakistan's favor. It would rather cancel out the tilt in India's favor and keep things balanced. :smokingc:

[srirangan]

Pakistan won't be given AWACS because of the close co-operation betw Pakistan and China. It's a known fact that China and Pakistan share technology, and USA is keen to deny China effective AWACS.

Also USA approved the sale of AWACS to India not to tilt the Indo-Pak scene in India's favour; but they wanted to tilt the Indo-China scene in India's favour.

[mysterious]

Pakistan will eventually get the AWACS, whether its the E-3C, Erieye or the Chinese AWACS. The Chinese AWACS along with the Chinses FT-2000 would certainly be enough for PAF requirements (though Chinese AWACS still needs quite a bit of improvement I think).

[Aussie Digger]

I don't think the US would try and stop the sale of Erieye to Pakistan. If anything Sweden would be more likely to deny it PAF than the US. Non-Nuclear Countries generally feel quite threatened by countries like Pakistan possessing Nuclear Devices...

[mysterious]

What and why has Sweden got to fear Pakistan about? :?

[srirangan]

Yeah PAK might get Chinese AWACS, but what good are they when Chinese themselves wanted the PHALCONS.

Non-Nuclear Countries generally feel quite threatened by countries like Pakistan possessing Nuclear Devices...

That is very correct. Europe is used to being so vulnerable like it is now so their suspicions may well be justified.

[mysterious]

I dont see Europe in any vulnerable position as long as NATO is around. Erieye has the brightest chances of coming Pakistan's way - bottom line.

[adsH]

Guys sweden is desperate for some money they need sales do you honestly think they would deny a potential billion dollar contract when there is no real cause for concern, pluss i think Saudi Arabia wants the same system as the PAF for network compatibility, so don't be suprised if PAF get the Swede AWAC.

Prior to the military coupe the swedes did almost sign a contract with pakistan, the deal is about 10 year old negotiations have been takeing place for a long time.

[srirangan]

Okay here's the deal. EU has arm's sale ban over China. If sweden sells the AWACS to Pakistan then it has by default sold it to China too. USA doesn't like that and won't let that happen.

[adsH]

Okay here's the deal. EU has arm's sale ban over China. If sweden sells the AWACS to Pakistan then it has by default sold it to China too. USA doesn't like that and won't let that happen.

what is this a logic block the embargo is on china not Pakistan Europe has been selling weapons to Pak since the US had embargoed stuff on them the US has no Control on us (europe).

[srirangan]

They are selling weapons, but not strategic weapons. That is because the general perception is that anything sold to Pakistan is automatically accessible to the Chinese. And there's no denying that USA has a considerable influence over European nations, especially in these matters.

[Oqaab]

Okay here's the deal. EU has arm's sale ban over China. If sweden sells the AWACS to Pakistan then it has by default sold it to China too. USA doesn't like that and won't let that happen.

If the US can sell C-130s, P-3C Orions and Attack Choppers, then they can sell us AWACS too. Ur theory is getting old.

[srirangan]

Strategic effect of good AWACS is being totally ignored by you. We just cannot compare the significance of the stuff you mentioned with the PHALCONS. And C-130s and the Choppers were mainly sold so that Pak can conduct a succesful Afghan offensive. You are missing my point.

[Oqaab]

Strategic effect of good AWACS is being totally ignored by you. We just cannot compare the significance of the stuff you mentioned with the PHALCONS. And C-130s and the Choppers were mainly sold so that Pak can conduct a succesful Afghan offensive. You are missing my point.

Do U know Pakistan is also negotiating for Hawkeye AWACS with the US ? Pakistan is major non nato ally and can get those planes.

China is also working on one or two AWACS projects and those will definatly be more capable then ur PHALCONS. So dont worry, we have a lot of options.

[srirangan]

Why would China want to buy PHALCONS if they can build more capable ones? Your claims are flawed my friend. And the MNA status is just figurative, many Pakistani's on this board would also agree to this. Let's try to be rational here.

[Oqaab]

Why would China want to buy PHALCONS if they can build more capable ones? Your claims are flawed my friend. And the MNA status is just figurative, many Pakistani's on this board would also agree to this. Let's try to be rational here.

China opted for Russian AWACS which were similar to Phalcons. They have been using A-50 AWACS since many years. Now, they have the capability to make powerful Radars. I suggest U to search on the internet if U dont know anything about current chinese projects.

[srirangan]

Chinese wanted the PHALCONS from the Israeli's but the US stopped Israel from selling it to them. Then all other AWACS were a second preference for them.

[umair]

First of all joker the hightech fighter search has not ended on the J-10.Believe me or not, it's up to you guys.I have been doing some talking nowadays and have come to know of some hightech fighter proposals being studied by the PAF(u guys can expect a thread or an article from me on this in the coming weeks).Of these, two proposals which have the most chance of succeeding are 1)the Typhon and 2)a customized version of the M2K5,slightly inferior to the 2K9 and already given the designation Mirage2005DF(Delta Falcon). Mention of this proposed joint Pak-French project has already been made in a Dassault brochure.The project has the backing of the PAF and just needs GOP approval.The total cost of the project spread over 10 years is put between $7-9 billion for a 124 plane contract over 8-10 years covering TOT for avionics, weapons and spares.One of the salient features of this proposal is that it gives us access to all MBDA missiles under the range of 300km(MTCR req) and as already mentioned TOT for the ones PAF wants.
As for the AWACS, I previously stated that we were going for an improved ERIEYE.Now the chinese have entered the fray.As for those who keep dismissing the Chinese, they ought to read the whole interview where the ACM states that the Chinese are improving in this area vastly da by day and will be able to match the west in a couple of years.
Now reasons(some might ask) why the Griffo S7 has been selected over the french RC400-4.
S7 is a highly improved variant of the Griffo 2000/M3 radar(the 2000 is the italian version of the APG68 variant fitted in mid mnodel F-16Cs.The M3 is a variant of the 2000 tailored to fit into PAF Mirage nosecones for the ROSE upgrade series.The N3 however retains full capability in terms of range and modes as it's compatriot APG68 and 2000 radars).The S7 secondly(in my opinion this is what tipped the scales in it's favour) has the ability to undergo an AESA upgrade in the future if the PAF wants it.FIAR has already told that it would cooperate in the research if this option is undertaken in the future.
I'll get more info on that Mirage2k5 DF proposal as soon as I can.

[joker]

Umair it is highly unlikely that the PAF is going to go for the EF (future sanctions always a problem + cost) and Mirage 2000 DF due to the cost. Simply put the PAF does not have $9 billion to spend. The total acquisition for all three services is $15 billion. Theres no way the PN and PA are going to give their share of the pie to the PAF. Dont take this personally but I would rather believe the ACM when he clearly stated that the Western 4th gen were unlikley to be purchased than what you have written.


Secondly the Grifo S7 has NOT been selected yet. Options are still being evaluated. To save time the Grifo S7 will be intedrated in prototype 05 to test the avionics and the BVR missile.

Nobody knows yet what the avionics suite will be. Nobody knows which radar will be selected as options are still being considered.

I dont know where the E2Cs or the E3s have come from. The PAF tried to purchase the E3s back in the 1980s but were flatly refused. Anyway no where in the article had the ACM even mentioned US AEW&C system.

Its either going to be the Erieye or the Chinese AEW!!

On the issue of sanctions having undergone both the Glenn and Pressler crippling us economically and military the PAF does not want to end up in a situation like they did with the whole F16 fiasco. It just takes the US to apply sanctions and the rest of W. Europe (barring France) follow suite. So thats why Chinese weapons (even though theyre not cutting edge) are preferred over western systems.

The Erieye is included becuase it already has several other operators across the globe. So in terms of maintenance (if sweden ever does apply sanctions) will not be a major issue. The PAF can continue maintaining the Erieye through friendly third party's albeit at a higher cost as they had done with the F16s.

4th gen fighters are a different matter. Neither the Rafale nor the EF are in wide spread service across the globe. So if sanctions are placed upon us both fighters will be multi million $ paper weights. The Gripen is in service with countries that have cordial relations with Pakistan but certainly not strong relations that they would be willing to supply the PAF spare parts violating intl sanctions.

The Mirage 2000 is just too expensive and the PAF certainly wont get the best bang for buck because even with the Mirage 2000 DF costing $55 mln the French are going to jack up the price when it comes to spare parts, upgrades and weapons.

So that only leaves the Chinese and the J10. Not the most ideal option and Im sure the PAF would love Western fighters but it simply is not a viable option.

[Oqaab]

Umair,

Is there any link regarding Delta Falcon ? I mean, any news report ? Thanx in advance.

[adsH]

First of all joker the hightech fighter search has not ended on the J-10.Believe me or not, it's up to you guys.I have been doing some talking nowadays and have come to know of some hightech fighter proposals being studied by the PAF(u guys can expect a thread or an article from me on this in the coming weeks).Of these, two proposals which have the most chance of succeeding are 1)the Typhon and 2)a customized version of the M2K5,slightly inferior to the 2K9 and already given the designation Mirage2005DF(Delta Falcon). Mention of this proposed joint Pak-French project has already been made in a Dassault brochure.The project has the backing of the PAF and just needs GOP approval.The total cost of the project spread over 10 years is put between $7-9 billion for a 124 plane contract over 8-10 years covering TOT for avionics, weapons and spares.One of the salient features of this proposal is that it gives us access to all MBDA missiles under the range of 300km(MTCR req) and as already mentioned TOT for the ones PAF wants.
As for the AWACS, I previously stated that we were going for an improved ERIEYE.Now the chinese have entered the fray.As for those who keep dismissing the Chinese, they ought to read the whole interview where the ACM states that the Chinese are improving in this area vastly da by day and will be able to match the west in a couple of years.
Now reasons(some might ask) why the Griffo S7 has been selected over the french RC400-4.
S7 is a highly improved variant of the Griffo 2000/M3 radar(the 2000 is the italian version of the APG68 variant fitted in mid mnodel F-16Cs.The M3 is a variant of the 2000 tailored to fit into PAF Mirage nosecones for the ROSE upgrade series.The N3 however retains full capability in terms of range and modes as it's compatriot APG68 and 2000 radars).The S7 secondly(in my opinion this is what tipped the scales in it's favour) has the ability to undergo an AESA upgrade in the future if the PAF wants it.FIAR has already told that it would cooperate in the research if this option is undertaken in the future.
I'll get more info on that Mirage2k5 DF proposal as soon as I can.

I don't think Umair does Links, he get it from the source looks very likely this might happen, its self reliance PAF is after the JF-17 J-10 and the Mirages 2k5, but we have to think about it, he did say the cost is spread over a total 10 year period by my loosely counted figure that would seam like one billion a year. and when you have TOT the Logistical cost is reduced, Spares would be produced too. i think this is more of a favorable Deal, abit pricey but more reliable. this deal is as old as the Augusta 90B so i wouldn't be surprised if it happens, all i am concerned about is the number of the Mirages 100 plus that Umair said is that actually feasible, but to think of it when ever you get TOT they the seller expects a large amount of purchase. are the powerplants of the mirages under the TOT too if this deal goes ahead.??????? :?

[Revival_786]

Its only a matter of time... soon Pakistan and China won't need western military tech at all ;)

[joker]

Adsh whether the payments are spread over 10 or 15 yrs is irrelevant. The fact that the M2K DF will cost around $8-9 billion and Pakistan has committed a total sum (not annual) of $15 billion makes the Mirage DF deal unlikely to happen. The funds simply are not there.

[adsH]

Adsh whether the payments are spread over 10 or 15 yrs is irrelevant. The fact that the M2K DF will cost around $8-9 billion and Pakistan has committed a total sum (not annual) of $15 billion makes the Mirage DF deal unlikely to happen. The funds simply are not there.

Ahh good point Joker but you have to look at what ACM said he wants indigenous AC for the future so by getting the Mirage and its array of advance avionics radars and advance building facilities wouldn't you enhance your own facility, there will be an active research and development project between the two countries you'd agree its worth the MOney!!, instead of begging for more advance jet your own development teams would be developing advance avionics for existing jets and further enhanceing designs. i know 10 billion is alot, but when you put the sum in and compare the advantages teh technology you assimilate its well worth the cost.

[Oqaab]

60 Mirage Delta Falcons, at a price of 55 million each, will cost 60 billion USD. I dont think these single-engine Rafales are too costly.

[P.A.F]

If where gonna get any front line fighters, then when are they likely to be delivered?

[joker]

Yes but Adsh we have to put things into perspective.

Pakistan was offered an assembly facility for the M2K by Dassault back in the 1980s. It was turned down because there werent any funds.

Things havent changed much since then. Except this time we're talking about costs including R&D, production, training, infrastructure development, maintenance, upgrades etc. The figure of $8 billion only includes R&D and production. We're proably going to have to spend a further $3.5 billion for the rest of the costs associated with the M2K. Even if the treasury attempts to diversify funding for the project to include bartering, long term credit, hard currency etc. then there still wont be viable

Simple fact is there's no money to pay for the DF. So no point in making a case for it when theres no money. Out of the $15 bln procurement budget (projected over the next 10 yrs) theres no way that the PN and PA will let the PAF $11.5 bln just for the DF. What about upgrading the Air defence network, AEW, aerial refuelling, prodn of JF 17, upgrading existing fleet, weapons etc. Where is the PAF going to get funding for all of this!!

Sure the ACM can talk about indigenous prodn of aircraft but right now thats just talk.

[gf0012-aust]

Out of the $15 bln procurement budget (projected over the next 10 yrs) theres no way that the PN and PA will let the PAF $11.5 bln just for the DF

Just to put some perspective in this. The projected defence budget for Australia over the next 10 years is closer to $60bn. That $60bn is required due to the fact that we have blocks of equipment that are hitting obsolescent cycles. Most defence literate people in Australia consider that $60bn is ineffective to maintain a quantum leap in technology.

If it's deemed inadequate for Aust, then $15bn for Pakistan is not much at all.

There is no way that Pakistan can meet it's perceived defence needs and build a production line with all of its ancilliary costs at that budget level.

Defence is not about buying shiny new toys in lots of numbers, its about buying approp smarter capability. That requires a change in mind set.