China's new toy

[Pathfinder-X]

this new missile attack boat was spotted in a shanghai shipyard last week, there's been alot of discussion in chinese and pakistani forums. at this poin technical data r not known. most ppl guess it's armed wif 8 C-803 missiles and wut appears to be a russian 630 CIWS system. i'll keep u guys posted when i find out more about it at other forums.
how do u post images??? i dunno how to upload the pics!!! :? :(

[mysterious]

Right click on the picture on the website, click on properties, shade and select the URL, copy it and then paste it in your post but put the URL between the Img tabs in the post msg options window (click Img once, then paste URL and then click Img again). :smokingc:

[gf0012-aust]

there's been a lot of discussions on this vessel by some of the naval architects etc and current serving sailors.

The weight touted by the original poster does not make sense with the draught shown when placed in the water.

There are some who are saying that its the movie prop from a James Bond film that was made in 1992

All I know is that with the dimesions that have been discussed, the design of it and it's draught don't make much sense.

I'm leaning towards a functional prop, rather than a working boat

[ipfreak]

this new missile attack boat was spotted in a shanghai shipyard last week, there's been alot of discussion in chinese and pakistani forums. at this poin technical data r not known. most ppl guess it's armed wif 8 C-803 missiles and wut appears to be a russian 630 CIWS system. i'll keep u guys posted when i find out more about it at other forums.
how do u post images??? i dunno how to upload the pics!!! :? :(

is that what were taling about? i almost miss that (i usually search fc-1 orj-10 then read those chinese articles). what is the designation for this boat? looks like some kinda concept testing boat ...

http://bbs.china.com/images/2004-04-29/10832046172.jpg
http://bbs.china.com/images/2004-04-29/1083206048200442995259154.jpg

[Pathfinder-X]

this new missile attack boat was spotted in a shanghai shipyard last week, there's been alot of discussion in chinese and pakistani forums. at this poin technical data r not known. most ppl guess it's armed wif 8 C-803 missiles and wut appears to be a russian 630 CIWS system. i'll keep u guys posted when i find out more about it at other forums.
how do u post images??? i dunno how to upload the pics!!! :? :(

is that what were taling about? i almost miss that (i usually search fc-1 orj-10 then read those chinese articles). what is the designation for this boat? looks like some kinda concept testing boat ...

http://bbs.china.com/images/2004-04-29/10832046172.jpg
http://bbs.china.com/images/2004-04-29/1083206048200442995259154.jpg

yes dat's the one!! :D
it's not an concept boat, second boat has already been sighted. i believe chinese is building these boats to gain superiority over south china sea. besides the missile n the CIWS, the boat will be armed wif two .50 cal machine guns.

[Pathfinder-X]

http://pic.tiexue.net/pic.aspx?id=61278
http://pic.tiexue.net/pic.aspx?id=61281
http://pic.tiexue.net/pic.aspx?id=61284
http://pic.tiexue.net/pic.aspx?id=61289

[adsH]

looks more like an over sized boat house!! :lol only a Joke

[Indianguy]

look like small range stealth boat. threat to its neighbours

[adsH]

look like small range stealth boat. threat to its neighbours

HOw does stealth boat work i still don't get the idea are they low in acoustic signitures or so they jammers or are they more smoother and quieter in movement. i have seen a pic of the French built Royal Saudi Arabian navy's stealth frigate they apperent have 3 rite now in service with the fourth coming inn shortly but there base is realy smooth and almost aerodynamic lol!! and do you know what are these stealth Ships used for!!

[ipfreak]

yeah, missle assult boat alright, u can see that at back. wondering what kinda missles it carries? i know china is working on supersonic missile similar like "sunburn" surface-tosurface missiles. notice the the front deck? there is a single barrel gun mounted. any ideas? could not see any anti-air weapon system. i guess this thing would not go out alone.

it does make sense though. it accompnaies the main fleet (maybe even dock on one big mother ship) and get its information from satelitte, or other ships then get close the target and relaese its missiles.

[Pathfinder-X]

yeah, missle assult boat alright, u can see that at back. wondering what kinda missles it carries? i know china is working on supersonic missile similar like "sunburn" surface-tosurface missiles. notice the the front deck? there is a single barrel gun mounted. any ideas? could not see any anti-air weapon system. i guess this thing would not go out alone.

it does make sense though. it accompnaies the main fleet (maybe even dock on one big mother ship) and get its information from satelitte, or other ships then get close the target and relaese its missiles.

rumor has it dat this boat is to join china's navy attack group. posts in chinese forums said becuz china do not pocess a carrier, so they use the new generation DDG and FFG to form attack groups to carryout their "active off-shore defence" doctrine until they r strong enough to challenge japan's navy. da boat is build to be part of dat attack group.
but this is all rumor, no evidence to support dat. i think more likely they r building this boat to gain better superiority over south china sea.

[gf0012-aust]

yeah, missle assult boat alright, u can see that at back. wondering what kinda missles it carries? i know china is working on supersonic missile similar like "sunburn" surface-tosurface missiles. notice the the front deck? there is a single barrel gun mounted. any ideas? could not see any anti-air weapon system. i guess this thing would not go out alone.

it does make sense though. it accompnaies the main fleet (maybe even dock on one big mother ship) and get its information from satelitte, or other ships then get close the target and relaese its missiles.

rumor has it dat this boat is to join china's navy attack group. posts in chinese forums said becuz china do not pocess a carrier, so they use the new generation DDG and FFG to form attack groups to carryout their "active off-shore defence" doctrine until they r strong enough to challenge japan's navy. da boat is build to be part of dat attack group.
but this is all rumor, no evidence to support dat. i think more likely they r building this boat to gain better superiority over south china sea.

You really have to take this photos with caution - and look at the reality of the design.

lets assume that it is a real vessel and not a James Bond stage prop from 1992

- it's a low draught wave piercing design - it's not designed to travel in high seas or large sea states - especially in the straits or the sea of Japan, it would sink pretty rapidly

- the absolute draught of the vessel doesn't make sense with its other dimensions - it is incredibly light in the water - as in it must be almost empty

- the Japanese navy with it's O class subs and Aegis skimmers is more than capable of defeating the Chinese Navy, even if all its current builds were available.

if it is a viable design (and not a movie prop) it will only be able to work in conjunction with a larger vessel. It would not survive as an autonomous unit against a reasonable opposition

small wave piercers are in the main, littoral vessels, they are not intended to go "blue", they're a brown water asset.

[ipfreak]

yeah, missle assult boat alright, u can see that at back. wondering what kinda missles it carries? i know china is working on supersonic missile similar like "sunburn" surface-tosurface missiles. notice the the front deck? there is a single barrel gun mounted. any ideas? could not see any anti-air weapon system. i guess this thing would not go out alone.

it does make sense though. it accompnaies the main fleet (maybe even dock on one big mother ship) and get its information from satelitte, or other ships then get close the target and relaese its missiles.

rumor has it dat this boat is to join china's navy attack group. posts in chinese forums said becuz china do not pocess a carrier, so they use the new generation DDG and FFG to form attack groups to carryout their "active off-shore defence" doctrine until they r strong enough to challenge japan's navy. da boat is build to be part of dat attack group.
but this is all rumor, no evidence to support dat. i think more likely they r building this boat to gain better superiority over south china sea.

You really have to take this photos with caution - and look at the reality of the design.

lets assume that it is a real vessel and not a James Bond stage prop from 1992

- it's a low draught wave piercing design - it's not designed to travel in high seas or large sea states - especially in the straits or the sea of Japan, it would sink pretty rapidly

- the absolute draught of the vessel doesn't make sense with its other dimensions - it is incredibly light in the water - as in it must be almost empty

- the Japanese navy with it's O class subs and Aegis skimmers is more than capable of defeating the Chinese Navy, even if all its current builds were available.

if it is a viable design (and not a movie prop) it will only be able to work in conjunction with a larger vessel. It would not survive as an autonomous unit against a reasonable opposition

small wave piercers are in the main, littoral vessels, they are not intended to go "blue", they're a brown water asset.

well, the twin-body design is known for its stability in rough water. US sea shadow has already proved that. of couse it looks light now since it is empty. once it fits a couple of missiles, engines and other equipment, you would see its weight. just like sea shadow, once it loaded, u hardly see its twin-body.

it has to work with other ships together in a battle formation. but i think it is more an experimental ship than a designated product line.

[gf0012-aust]

well, the twin-body design is known for its stability in rough water. US sea shadow has already proved that. of couse it looks light now since it is empty. once it fits a couple of missiles, engines and other equipment, you would see its weight. just like sea shadow, once it loaded, u hardly see its twin-body.

it has to work with other ships together in a battle formation. but i think it is more an experimental ship than a designated product line.


The Sea Shadow is a stealth insertion vessel, it's a tewin hull, not a wave piercer - they are two very different design briefs. On top of that the SS was not designed to go into high sea states, it was a technology demonstrator only.

if you look at the design of the vessel, it's draughted weight is another 2 metres - thats not going to make it "stealthy" at all. it's not desiged for absolute "stealth", it's designed for high speed travel in relatively benign sea states.

it's a littoral combat vessel

[joker]

kinda resembles the trimaran hull (?) design the RN are analysing.

[ipfreak]

The Sea Shadow is a stealth insertion vessel, it's a tewin hull, not a wave piercer - they are two very different design briefs. On top of that the SS was not designed to go into high sea states, it was a technology demonstrator only.

if you look at the design of the vessel, it's draughted weight is another 2 metres - thats not going to make it "stealthy" at all. it's not desiged for absolute "stealth", it's designed for high speed travel in relatively benign sea states.

it's a littoral combat vessel

come on pal, that chinese thing (i don't know what i shall call it) has twin-body, single haul, with a big sharp nose to piecrce waves.

well, i don't think anyone here has any clues what it is, i rather wait and see what exactly it will become ...

to me, it is kinda empty, it doesn't look like movie prop. probably some kinda new concept tetsting ship for technology investment . take another 10 years to be useful ...

[gf0012-aust]

The Sea Shadow is a stealth insertion vessel, it's a tewin hull, not a wave piercer - they are two very different design briefs. On top of that the SS was not designed to go into high sea states, it was a technology demonstrator only.

if you look at the design of the vessel, it's draughted weight is another 2 metres - thats not going to make it "stealthy" at all. it's not desiged for absolute "stealth", it's designed for high speed travel in relatively benign sea states.

it's a littoral combat vessel

come on pal, that chinese thing (i don't know what i shall call it) has twin-body, single haul, with a big sharp nose to piecrce waves.

well, i don't think anyone here has any clues what it is, i rather wait and see what exactly it will become ...

to me, it is kinda empty, it doesn't look like movie prop. probably some kinda new concept tetsting ship for technology investment . take another 10 years to be useful ...

so whats your issue here? I've already said it's a wave piercing concept. I doubt that it's an operational vessel due to a number of reasons.

The centre bow isn't designed to pierce the water. The two outriggers do the bulk of the work, the centre hull is a frame support and acts like a lifting body as well. The centre bow has nothing to do with cutting through water.

Do you actually understand the concept of how a wave piercing design works??? It's a midget version of an INCAT concept. Hence why the shallow draught, hence why the design is useful for either littoral work or brown water work. A small wave piercer will not last that well in a mild sea state (eg 3) - irrespective of how sexy it may look (which is the same problem that the Sea Shadow had)

Until I see further evidence of it underway and at speed, then I'm not prepared to give it a tick as a real entitiy. It's a potentiolly a CTD, it may well be a real platform, BUT there are some odd displacement issues, design issues.

btw, Australia designs approx 70% of the worlds wave piercing designs, we hold speed and transoceanic records for the designs, and we make the only blue water military versions available, and we have chaired the last 4 years of conferences on the concept at various Naval Forums in Aust, Hawaii and London, so I think we might understand the concept a little. ;)

I'm happy for you to want to believe in it - I don't as yet. When I see it weighted and fully displaced, then I'm happier to be more generous in some kind of unbridled enthusiasm.

[Red aRRow]

Hmmm, can't argue with gf on any naval related threads.
I'd like to get a second opinion too from that shamsi dude who used to hang out here sometimes.

If the vessel is real, then it looks like the Chinese did wanted to be a low observable vehicle. I don't see a flat surface to any direction from which a radar might be trained on it (except from the air perhaps). Anyways I guess since littoral vessels are near the coast so they are pretty much "hidden" on radar screens being near the coast and all. (<<<<GF can you confirm this theory of mine?).

[gf0012-aust]

Hmmm, can't argue with gf on any naval related threads.
I'd like to get a second opinion too from that shamsi dude who used to hang out here sometimes.

If the vessel is real, then it looks like the Chinese did wanted to be a low observable vehicle. I don't see a flat surface to any direction from which a radar might be trained on it (except from the air perhaps). Anyways I guess since littoral vessels are near the coast so they are pretty much "hidden" on radar screens being near the coast and all. (<<<<GF can you confirm this theory of mine?).

I haven't seen Shamsi on the other forums for a while either so I guess he's busy with work, the last email I had from him was about 2-3 months ago.

The vessel is designed for lower obervability, but it's not stealthy from a frontal aspect, it has low obersvability for flank views as well.

You're correct about it's observability by air assets - which is why strike forces favour air assets to confirm or assist in identifying ground/naval targets.

Smaller high speed vessels are ideal for littoral work, which is why the Danes and Norwegians favour the concept - they can blend with clutter etc... Chinas east coast between Hong Kong is very similar in some respects, a lot of fjord type inlets, high cliff faces, small islands for masking etc. They would be in their element in such an environment, but if their design intent is to be aggressors, I can't see full utility being realised in blue water engagements. They're a 21st century version of the german E-boat concept.

I think it's an interesting design, but something doesn't seem right about it as far as length, width, displacement issues. I guess I'll just wait for more shots to be made available. Smaller wave piercers are very much prone to rocking. The majority of designs I've seen steer clear away from small OPV designs like this due to inherent motion problems with hull design and absolute length and weight.

As I said, I'll be more interested when I see it at full displacement so that I can see how much of the hull "blades" are submerged.

The critical issue on these is:

absolute displacement
power to weight
centre hull design (critical for determining if lift is critical part of the forward speed dynamic)

I can't see any devices used to assist in hydroplaning the hull, and the blades seem far to small in absolute height. If thats the case, then it won't be able to travel at speed.

Thats one of the many reasons why I can't make a clear sense of it.

[CSS]

I do agreed to gf0012 that the vessel might be intended for littoral ops.

Maybe PLA plan to deploy such craft around Spratly Islands at South China Sea supported by larger vessel. A frigate maybe. :?

Using such kind of craft will be an added advantages to counter Asean countries patrol vessel around the area. No need for them to deploy a squadron of their large combat vessel. (which they can redeploy to other area).

[gf0012-aust]

I do agreed to gf0012 that the vessel might be intended for littoral ops.

Maybe PLA plan to deploy such craft around Spratly Islands at South China Sea supported by larger vessel. A frigate maybe. :?

Using such kind of craft will be an added advantages to counter Asean countries patrol vessel around the area. No need for them to deploy a squadron of their large combat vessel. (which they can redeploy to other area).

They would be an ugly little irritant around thge Spratleys, and if thats the case, then they would be a problem vessel in the making.

The PLAN is structuring for island strikes, and I doubt that Taiwan is the test lab to work out whether they can operate under combined arms. China hasn't fought a modern war, it's prev wars have involved continental advantages - so The Spratleys are an ideal environment to test out new battle doctrines.

my 2cents worth anyway. ;)

[CSS]

I do agreed to gf0012 that the vessel might be intended for littoral ops.

Maybe PLA plan to deploy such craft around Spratly Islands at South China Sea supported by larger vessel. A frigate maybe. :?

Using such kind of craft will be an added advantages to counter Asean countries patrol vessel around the area. No need for them to deploy a squadron of their large combat vessel. (which they can redeploy to other area).

They would be an ugly little irritant around thge Spratleys, and if thats the case, then they would be a problem vessel in the making.

The PLAN is structuring for island strikes, and I doubt that Taiwan is the test lab to work out whether they can operate under combined arms. China hasn't fought a modern war, it's prev wars have involved continental advantages - so The Spratleys are an ideal environment to test out new battle doctrines.

my 2cents worth anyway. ;)
Innovations do offer certain degree of risk...new doctrine might work or might lead to a disaster. But based on the assumption of the payload it will be suffice for Spratly's dominance.

I don't think Asian navy will be able to counter such vessel effectively, maybe Vietnam but for Phillipines, Malaysia and Brunei, they just watch such vessel lurking around..rather irritating.. :roll

[Pathfinder-X]

Innovations do offer certain degree of risk...new doctrine might work or might lead to a disaster. But based on the assumption of the payload it will be suffice for Spratly's dominance.

I don't think Asian navy will be able to counter such vessel effectively, maybe Vietnam but for Phillipines, Malaysia and Brunei, they just watch such vessel lurking around..rather irritating.. :roll

vietnam cannot counter these boats, their warship is mostly 60's design style with chinese and russian supplied old weapons. i doubt that their radar will print the new chinese boats effectively. and alos their navy personal isn't as well-trained as china's

[gf0012-aust]

Those navies with subs have a better chance at dealing with these vessels - especially in littorals.

Chinese ASW technology is woeful. Subs have been able to trail Chinese vessels with minimal fear of being painted. China does not have a decent array system in place - and certainly doesn't have any arrays in place in the Spratleys.

To the West is the Indian Naval facilities in the Andomans and Nicobars, these are probably the most effective Naval facilities outside of the new base in Singapore in the region.

The Singaporean modified Lafayettes are regarded as the best of the type, and they are considered a better unit than even the French originals.

There are two navies in the region that are capable of stopping a Chinese expeditionary force. China just does not have the capability to wage expeditionary war on some of these countries in region. She is a continental power only in the projection sense. Seizing an open Island system is far different from an expeditionary assault on a defending foe.

[CSS]

Those navies with subs have a better chance at dealing with these vessels - especially in littorals.

Chinese ASW technology is woeful. Subs have been able to trail Chinese vessels with minimal fear of being painted. China does not have a decent array system in place - and certainly doesn't have any arrays in place in the Spratleys.

To the West is the Indian Naval facilities in the Andomans and Nicobars, these are probably the most effective Naval facilities outside of the new base in Singapore in the region.

The Singaporean modified Lafayettes are regarded as the best of the type, and they are considered a better unit than even the French originals.

There are two navies in the region that are capable of stopping a Chinese expeditionary force. China just does not have the capability to wage expeditionary war on some of these countries in region. She is a continental power only in the projection sense. Seizing an open Island system is far different from an expeditionary assault on a defending foe.That is why Royal Malaysian Navy acquire 2 Scorpene. Such inventory will really give RMN an ability to counter PLA Navy in better terms. Another hope for RMN is their new PV from Meko 100. I hope the second batch will pack more firepower(SSM, SAM and torpedos). The first batch (6 units) is only equip with 1 main gun & 2 small caliber gun :(

If I not mistaken, Vietnam already acquired new missile boat from Russia, can't recall the type but rather fast and pack with 4 SSM??? Anybody can enlighten me on this?? :?

[tatra]

Vietnam has ordered some 375 ton Svetlyak (project 10410/10412) patrol boats from Almaz in Russia. Some version of that boat (project 10411) can carry russian 2x4 Uran SSM. Otherwise armament is 1x76mm gunm, 1x AK630 30mm gatling, launching station for SA-7/Igla-1 type MANPADS. They do 30 knots. However, I believe the 2 Svetlyak's built for Vietnam only have gun and SAM armament and no SSM. Delivered in 2002. See: http://www.almaz.spb.ru/home/about.asp

http://news.ttvnol.com/uploaded/fitter/93-59.jpg

I believe Vietnam also ordered or is building a variant of the Russian MOLNIYA missile boat (Project 12421) with similar armament which includes 4 SS-N-2C Styx SSM and 2 instead of just 1 AK630. This Tarantul I (NATO designation) is bigger (450 tons) and faster (43+kn) than the Svetlyak. Think they ordered 4. They are looking into getting more, but of the Tarantul III variant with 2x2 Sunburn SSM

Vietnam also built 2 BPS-500 FAC with 2x4 Uran, 76mm gun and 30mm gun and 2x 12.7mm MG. These are Russian-designed, based on 'Tarantul'/'Pauk' hull and displace 520tn with top-speed 32 knots.

http://news.ttvnol.com/uploaded/Condor/bps-500.jpg

In relaton to these boats, this from http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/1242.htm:
"In January 1999 it was announed that Vympel and Rosvoorouzhenie were to deliver two Project 1241RE missile boats to Vietnam. The [frigate] will come in versions which include a powerful gunboat, a patrol ship, a plane shooter and a hunter for submarines. The pilot ship of the series is already under construction for Vietnam. The [frigate's] streamlined hull and low-profile superstructure provide an excellent hiding envelope for everything that generates noise or heat, reflects radar pulses or disturbs magnetic fields. Moreover, the superstructure can be coated with stealth materials that make it invisible to radars. Propelled by two powerful water jets, the ship can race across shallows at over 30 knots. Big fuel tanks and fuel-saving diesel engines allow it to carry out missions at up to 3 thousand nautical miles from home base. Despite the displacement of just 545 tons, the frigate carries a formidable array of weaponry on board. This includes eight Kh-35 [SSN-X-25 Switchblade] anti-ship cruise missiles with a range of over 130 kilometers, two torpedo tubes, several anti-aircraft missile batteries of the VIKHR-K and IGLA makes and a number of large-caliber machine-guns. " [of course, it should read corvette rather than frigate]

[Magoo]

Almost like a smaller version of the Littoral Combat Ship. Fast, heavily armed, semi stealthy etc

Penguin fodder!

[tatra]

a) BPS 500 type large missile boats
Displacement: 517 tons full load
Dimensions: 62 x 11 x 2.5 meters/203.4 x 36 x 8.2 feet
Propulsion: 2 diesels, 2 waterjets, 19,600 bhp, 32 knots
Crew: 28
Radar: Positiv-E/Cross Dome air/surf search
EW: 2 PK-16 decoy
Armament: 8 Kh-35 Uran SSM, 1 76.2mm/59cal DP, 1 30 mm AA, 2 12.7 mm MG
Concept/Program: Russian-designed, based on ''Tarantul''/''Pauk'' hull. Being built in with Russian assistance and imported materials.

http://news.ttvnol.com/uploaded/Condor/bps500.jpg

b) Russia''s Northern Project Design Bureau (SPKB St. Petersburg a.k.a. Severnoye) has completed preliminary design work on its KBO 2000 (Project 2100) corvette for NC. The 2,000-tonne corvette will feature the SS-N-25 ''Switchblade'' SSM, SA-N-9 ''Gauntlet'', a 100mm gun, two 30mm guns and torpedo launchers. A helicopter landing platform has also been incorporated in the corvette''s design. The vessels are under construction at the Hoshimin shipyard in NC. Jane''s Defence Weekly, 24 March 1999

http://news.ttvnol.com/uploaded/Condor/kbo2000.jpg

Here's the pair

http://news.ttvnol.com/uploaded/Condor/kbo2000bps500.gif

[Pathfinder-X]

if china attacks the spratly islands in the future a few advanced boat from vietnamese navy won't be powerful enough to stop them. Most likely china will launch a combined forces operations involving naval aviation, surface warships and submarines. keep in mind that the FBC-1 was design to have a far enough combat radius to effetively support the sea operations in south china sea.

and yes china's ASW capability is terrible, but has improved alot since 1996, better sensors and weapons has been developed although still in small number. it will be at least a decade before china can have a decent ASW capability.

[tatra]

if china attacks the spratly islands in the future a few advanced boat from vietnamese navy won't be powerful enough to stop them.

I think the key point is not that they are being built but rather that they are being built in Vietnam....

[ashoaib]

A good toy. It remind me Geometrical shapes which I studied in school.

[pezfez]

well malaysia, along with the 2 scorpenes, is getting meko 100 stealth corvettes from germany (this is from another forum, world armed forces forum) and they already have the lekiu sp? and laksamana sp? corvettes and frigates, more than enough to detect and paint a chinese warship, or ne warship.

[tatra]

well malaysia, along with the 2 scorpenes, is getting meko 100 stealth corvettes from germany (this is from another forum, world armed forces forum) and they already have the lekiu sp? and laksamana sp? corvettes and frigates, more than enough to detect and paint a chinese warship, or ne warship.

Are you awre of the difference between the MEKO 100 and the MEKO A 100?
The first is an off shore patrol vessel that can be armed lightly. The second is a low observable corvette. Malaysia has acquired a development of the first, not the second.

MEKO 100 OPV
@ http://212.72.173.53/img/meko_100opv_aussen.jpg

MEKO A 100 corvette
@ http://212.72.173.53/media/a968fb88226448f5594002ab869bf4e4.jpg

The actual ship built for Malaysia MEKO 100 RMN
@ http://212.72.173.53/img/meko100_rmn1.jpg

[Salman78]

Nice Boat but they are of little tactical use mainly because of their short range...