Pak may get SU-30

[tahir_kheshgi]

hey salaam all,
i know i am new here so dont think i am talking crap here. i am from london. but lived a lot of my life in Pak, Karachi. i know a lot about pak military, specially the PAF.
i went to khi in Aug. i have a cousin who is a test pilot for PAF based in Masroor base karachi. i asked him back in Aug to clear up all the confusion of which fighter PAF is buying. he said back then that his name is included in the list of pilots and the staff going to france for training on Mirage 2000-5. basically he said pak is likely to get mirage 2000-5.
well that obviously didnt happen.
now i went to khi last month. asked him the same question. this time he says that pak is most likely to get SU-30, same as the ones that india has. meaning they have to be SU-30MKIs. he goes that pak has a good deal on su30s and will go for it.
i remember AVM shahid lateef last year in oct/nov time saying that PAF will surprise everyone around the mid 2003 period. Do you think this SU30 deal is a surprise package? hmmm

i have been trying to find out some info regarding this deal on the internet for quiet a time. Have you lot heard about this recently?

Su-30MKIs will be a huge boost for PAF

(p.s. dont think i am making this up. take this seriously. i am not lieing about this!!)

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/su30_01.jpg

[Roger Smith]

hey salaam all,
i know i am new here so dont think i am talking crap here. i am from london. but lived a lot of my life in Pak, Karachi. i know a lot about pak military, specially the PAF.
i went to khi in Aug. i have a cousin who is a test pilot for PAF based in Masroor base karachi. i asked him back in Aug to clear up all the confusion of which fighter PAF is buying. he said back then that his name is included in the list of pilots and the staff going to france for training on Mirage 2000-5. basically he said pak is likely to get mirage 2000-5.
well that obviously didnt happen.
now i went to khi last month. asked him the same question. this time he says that pak is most likely to get SU-30, same as the ones that india has. meaning they have to be SU-30MKIs. he goes that pak has a good deal on su30s and will go for it.
i remember AVM shahid lateef last year in oct/nov time saying that PAF will surprise everyone around the mid 2003 period. Do you think this SU30 deal is a surprise package? hmmm

i have been trying to find out some info regarding this deal on the internet for quiet a time. Have you lot heard about this recently?

Su-30MKIs will be a huge boost for PAF

(p.s. dont think i am making this up. take this seriously. i am not lieing about this!!)

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/su30_01.jpg

Tahir

You may be right, it is a top secret deal that Pakistan is negotiating on Su-30MKI with some country other than Russia and India., therefore it will not be on internet or any other place and could only be in some one mind only (wishful thinking only).

Take care! :smokingc:

[Aussie Digger]

I don't think you're lying, but I doubt Pakistan will purchase SU-30 aircraft. Countries rarely ever acquire the same military equipment as their opponent. It provides your opponent (and yourselves) with an intelligence advantage... If anything they will pursue Chinese aircraft and perhaps smaller numbers of high quality "Western" fighters. It's also a bit early for PAF pilots to be training on types of aircraft that may enter PAF service. Even if the contract for new aircraft were signed tomorrow, it would still take years for new aircraft to enter PAF service. If they were new build aircraft PAF would be unlikely to achieve an initial operating capability for these aircraft (ie: aircraft actually flying in PAF colours) at any time before 2008. It's an unfortunate thing. The benefits of new technology have the drawback of being far more complex and time consuming to manufacture and test. Second hand aircraft (such as early model F-16's) could be introduced much quicker, (possibly as early as late 2005, early 2006) but it is normal for second-hand aircraft to be refurbished and upgraded prior to introducing them into service with another Country. I cannot see PAF gaining a "new" fighter aircraft before 2006 at the earliest, even if second-hand aircraft were obtained. Without upgrade or modification they simply wouldn't be inter-operable with existing PAF aircraft. Cheers.

[tahir_kheshgi]

yea but who knows... pak may have been trying to get hold of these planes for quiet a long time.
i agree with u Aussie that a country would not get the same weapon as its enemy. To b honest, thats what i thought initially, but then i thought, there has to be a catch of some sort. may be Su30 that pak wants to get are a bit different from the indians ones.. etc.

i donnot think it will be a major problem for Pak to get these planes quickly. and training the pilots on these aircrafts wouldnt be as hard as you make it sound! i mean, back in 1980s, F-16s were completely different aircraft for PAF, and look within a few years, PAF F-16s pilots were renowned as the best F-16 pilots in the world. same can go for the SU30s.
i think right now if pak gets the SU30s, it will definately put PAF an edge over the IAF as PAF pilots push each aircraft to its limit and have a lot more quality!! right now, SU30 is probably one of the best combat aircrafts in the world, until the F-22 comes atleast!!

so if paf gets these aircrafts knowing their enemy has them as well, whats the harm in that?

[umair]

I agree with AD.Tahir I'm having doubts towards the Su-30.We already rejected the Flankers in the early 90s.
According to my info we're trying now to get our 32 Falcons a comprehensive MLU(MLU=Block50/52),and get 16 secondhand Falcons with MLU.Complement them with a similar no of J-10s.And for the silver bullet force 48-64 Typhoons.

[tahir_kheshgi]

ok i am confused
so when u say MLUs do u mean they are block 50?... i always thought they were block 15s.
i thought Block 50s were the F-16/C/ds!!

and what do u mean by silver bullet foce typhoons... is this eurofighter?

[Aussie Digger]

Yep I'm betting on additional second hand F-16's, with the entire fleet put through an MLU. This would be the quickest in-service enhancement to PAF's capabilities and provide the greatest level of combat capability quickly. Tk (as I'm too lazy to type your whole name) it takes a long time to build a single jet fighter these days. It will take the US until 2006 to build 20 recently approved F/A-22 low rate initial production aircraft, on a production line that's already in operation!!! At the F-22's peak planned production they will only be delivering 26 or so actual jets every year. Unless the SU-30's are already completed or nearly so (which I would highly doubt) it would take 12-18 months simply to obtain the long lead time items necessary to begin building the jets, these items include engines, radars avionics etc. Also I didn't say training the pilots to fly these jets would be hard. I said they wouldn't haven't started to train for jets they wouldn't be able to get for years yet anyway. They would be a waste of perfectly good (and always scarce) pilots. The pilots might be chosen to fly whichever jet in the future, but would be maintaining his skills on an in-service type. Pilots might be going overseas to test various types of aircraft to report back to their superiors on the aircrafts suitability, performance etc, but that is quite a different thing, to pilots training to operate these new jets in PAF service. For instance a pilot would never be allowed to fly a foreign fighter on his own in a mere test...

[P.A.F]

hold on. tahir said that there is gonna be a suprise deal mid 2003. It's bloody 2004 now.

[Aussie Digger]

I think he (she?) Probably made a typo there... :help

[umair]

Tahir is a male name mate :D

[adsH]

Hey Don't you guys think a EF2000 typhonn could "comprehensively" beat a SU30 I think so . and i don't think the SUXX would come from Either china or Russia it would come form a rebel!!!! Ukraine!!! Ukraine would porbbaly be looking for INvestment and R&D help, just like the AK MBT!!

[P.A.F]

Listen!!! pakistan ain't gettin no Su-30's. IT ALL A LOAD OF CRAP. where more likly to get belgium F-16, French or UAE mirages.

[adsH]

Listen!!! pakistan ain't gettin no Su-30's. IT ALL A LOAD OF CRAP. where more likly to get belgium F-16, French or UAE mirages.

Wait!!! pakistan Is still not sure what it wan'ts, why don't we all (lesser minds) wait and see what the PAF decides!!! idon't think UAE is going to sell those mirages they are used by the emirates AF.

[Indianguy]

Listen!!! pakistan ain't gettin no Su-30's. IT ALL A LOAD OF CRAP. where more likly to get belgium F-16, French or UAE mirages.

Wait!!! pakistan Is still not sure what it wan'ts, why don't we all (lesser minds) wait and see what the PAF decides!!! idon't think UAE is going to sell those mirages they are used by the emirates AF.

Well Pak is not going to get SU 30 from Russia, Nor Mirages 2000, It ihas only option left either go for F16 or European planes which are costly. I think they will settle for Second HAnd F16

[tatra]

Listen!!! pakistan ain't gettin no Su-30's. IT ALL A LOAD OF CRAP. where more likly to get belgium F-16, French or UAE mirages.

Wait!!! pakistan Is still not sure what it wan'ts, why don't we all (lesser minds) wait and see what the PAF decides!!! idon't think UAE is going to sell those mirages they are used by the emirates AF.

Well Pak is not going to get SU 30 from Russia, Nor Mirages 2000, It ihas only option left either go for F16 or European planes which are costly. I think they will settle for Second HAnd F16
Not likely to get Eurofighter Typhoon either...

[tahir_kheshgi]

Hey i am just telling you the words of a test-pilot of PAF. he said SU30 are looking very likely.
i mean we can all make assumptions here about what paf will get, and to be quiet frank, only time will tell.
right now PAF has a lot of money to spend! $2.5b are already been given to the PAF for expenditure, "more will be given, if required" said Musharaf!! so PAF is just taking its time to get the best thing possible for $2.5b.
we are here chatting away on an internet forum basing our statements over some internet site. There is nothing wrong in that. But the fact remains that we would never figure out the inside story. i heard this SU30 thing from a PAF test pilot! i am sure there has to be some credibility in this news.

[Roger Smith]

Hey i am just telling you the words of a test-pilot of PAF. he said SU30 are looking very likely.
i mean we can all make assumptions here about what paf will get, and to be quiet frank, only time will tell.
right now PAF has a lot of money to spend! $2.5b are already been given to the PAF for expenditure, "more will be given, if required" said Musharaf!! so PAF is just taking its time to get the best thing possible for $2.5b.
we are here chatting away on an internet forum basing our statements over some internet site. There is nothing wrong in that. But the fact remains that we would never figure out the inside story. i heard this SU30 thing from a PAF test pilot! i am sure there has to be some credibility in this news.

Tahir

Russia will not supply any Su-30 to Pakistan and upset its long standing defence cooperation with India.

May be, I say may be Ukraine might supply some second hand Su-27 aircrafts to Pakistan, but at a later date Pakistan may find difficulty in obtaining spare parts from Russia. So the Su-27 may be a white elephant for PAF.

On the other hand, PAF may find some cooperation from the Chinese for spare parts, as the Chinese have Su-27 in their inventory. :? :help

[adsH]

Hey i am just telling you the words of a test-pilot of PAF. he said SU30 are looking very likely.
i mean we can all make assumptions here about what paf will get, and to be quiet frank, only time will tell.
right now PAF has a lot of money to spend! $2.5b are already been given to the PAF for expenditure, "more will be given, if required" said Musharaf!! so PAF is just taking its time to get the best thing possible for $2.5b.
we are here chatting away on an internet forum basing our statements over some internet site. There is nothing wrong in that. But the fact remains that we would never figure out the inside story. i heard this SU30 thing from a PAF test pilot! i am sure there has to be some credibility in this news.

Tahir

Russia will not supply any Su-30 to Pakistan and upset its long standing defence cooperation with India.

May be, I say may be Ukraine might supply some second hand Su-27 aircrafts to Pakistan, but at a later date Pakistan may find difficulty in obtaining spare parts from Russia. So the Su-27 may be a white elephant for PAF.

On the other hand, PAF may find some cooperation from the Chinese for spare parts, as the Chinese have Su-27 in their inventory. :? :help

Rogger,,,,,,,, doesn't ukraine make Su 30?

[Aussie Digger]

Tk, when I was in the military (Australian Army for about 5 years) we used to hear all sorts of rumours about getting this bit of equipment or that bit of equipment. The only time you "know" you're actually getting something is when it is issued to you by your quartermaster. This is the same for a rifle, a pair of night vision goggles, an armoured vehicle or an aircraft. Even a President announcing a certain military capability will be acquired doesn't mean that it will. Look at the US's Commanche program or the Crusader program... A test pilot may very well be travelling to another Country to test a particular type of aircraft. This sort of thing happens all the time. It doesn't mean you will necessarily acquire that aircraft. What normally happens is the pilot will report back to his parent air force on the aircraft's capabilities (that he is allowed to test...) I wouldn't put too many "eggs into one basket" on the basis of what one pilot might say, no matter how well you know him.

[gf0012-aust]

My take on this:

Irkut (Sukhoi) will not want to jeopardise future sales with India - as India is the far biggest customer - and is historically a long term customer, the Russians will not jeopardise it. Russia still sees India as a reliable ally

If China sells SU-30's or brass plates existing units to Pakistan - then they will jeopardise future purchase opportunities - and China still needs more Su-30's to take over the old Beagle and Bear squadrons.

[mysterious]

My take on this:

I dont think PAF is nuts to buy the same aircraft as its main opponent! Likely purchases; second-hand F-16s, Typhoon or Gripen (and if China's willing to sell J-10s then that might be it). End of story. :smokingc:

[Aussie Digger]

Me either, the SU-30 is a good aircraft. I just don't think it very likely that PAF will be able to buy this aircraft.

[adsH]

Me either, the SU-30 is a good aircraft. I just don't think it very likely that PAF will be able to buy this aircraft.

Its too expensive to maintain it overhauls should cost abit too every 400 -500 hours !!

[Soldier]

Me either, the SU-30 is a good aircraft. I just don't think it very likely that PAF will be able to buy this aircraft.

Its too expensive to maintain it overhauls should cost abit too every 400 -500 hours !!


What are the basis of your this conclusion ADSH? I do not agree with you at all....this is why i will like you to put more light on it.

[Aussie Digger]

China, Pak Joint Venture to Produce JF-17


(Source: Press Trust of India; issued Apr. 27, 2004)


LONDON --- A joint venture between China and Pakistan will begin initial production of 16 Joint Fighter-17 (JF-17) Thunder fighters in 2006, according to a report.

The joint venture would be between Chengdu Aircraft Industry in China and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), the Janes’ Defence Weekly reported today.

First deliveries to Pakistan Air Force will start mid-2006, Air Vice Marshal Lateef told the weekly.

Eight aircraft would be delivered to China’s People’s Liberation Army Air Force, and eight to the PAF, four of which would be built entirely in Chengdu and four assemble at PAC’s Kamra facility. The PAF has a requirement for 150 JF-17s.

According to the report, currently two prototypes of the FC-1/JF-17 are flying. The first took to the air on August 25, 2003, with the maiden flight of the second prototype on April 9, both from the Chengdu facility in China.

Two Pakistani test pilots flew the initial prototype for the first time on April 7, beginning regular participation in the flight test program.

The first two prototypes will explore the aircraft’s operational flight envelope and the operation of its subsystems. A third prototype is planned for system integration and certification of the avionics suite and weapons fit.

The Chengdu Aircraft Industry and the PAC are in equal partnership and jointly developing and producing the fighter, the report said.

The JF-17/FC-1 is described as a multi-role attack fighter with delta wings, a conventional tail and a fly-by-wire flight control system.

-ends-
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_001525.shtml

This article is one reason I doubt the PAF will get the Su-30. The other is that India is Russia'a single biggest customer, and Russia will not want to upset India. Cheers.

[tahir_kheshgi]

yea very valid points
but then speculations keep going on and on haan? :)
hey i personally love SU30.. i think its a fantastic fighter... but i didnt really feel that good to hear this "rumour" (classed by your lot)! Mainly because of the fact that Pakistan can really enhance its relationship with France by buying Rafales. i Personally think Rafale is the way forward for pak. $2.5b has already been given to paf. you can easily get 40 rafales for $2.5b. push it to $3b and you can include all the trainning and etc. Musharaf has already mentioned that he is willing to provide more money, if required!! PAF needs to look into 4th/5th generation fighters rather than just looking into buying old planes.
Rafale is the way forward. it will outclass any indian fighter, including SU30. the only think it will lack in, is the manouverability against SU30, but i dont think Rafales avionics and radar systems would let the situation go into a dogfight.
PAK should go for rafales thats what i think personally. NO typhoons, No mirages no F-16s (even though i love F-16s i would never trust them american ****)!

[mysterious]

I suppose you will pay for the Rafaels from your own pocket? Its 'the most' expensive aircraft which is on the contenders list for PAF's next generation frontline fighter jet. $2.5b isnt much at all when considering Rafaels. The training, the logistics setup, etc would itself cost a lot. You can just about get 20-25 Rafaels in $2.5b man! Not worth it. Go for Typhoon, Gripen or J-10.

[Aussie Digger]

Given the choice, I think PAF should opt for the Eurofighter. It will be the most capable of the 4th gen western fighters (F-22 is 5th gen) and should be the most supportable, given it will probably be manufactured in larger numbers than Gripen or Rafale.

[rabirizvi]

but isnt the Ef-2000 in the same league as of rafael when u compare the price tag. I mean if ppl think that rafael is too expensive for PAF then same goes for typhoon. how low will the price go as there are many countries who are likely to opt for EF....?

[Aussie Digger]

A larger fleet of aircraft generally tends to drive down the cost of the aircraft (hence the importance attached to the JSF program). Rafale has to date lost every aircraft acquisition competition it has entered (bar French Air Force/Navy requirements). Typhoon not only has a production order already roughly double Gripen or Rafale, but has won additional international orders (Austria) and is highly placed to win others (Singapore notably). This should ensure the basic purchase price of the Typhoon comes down and it's through life supportability should be greater. Cheers.

[tahir_kheshgi]

exactly the unit price of each plane comes down...
but hey Aussie digger could u tell me more about rafale's failures... cuz till now i heard its a fantastic plane!!
Aussie digger to be honest if i was in PAF shoes i would never get JSF even if it was offered! for one obvious reason... you never know these back stabbing americans.. one min they might offer it.. the next day they wont give us the parts, weapons for the aircraft, which makes it compeltly useless fighter
i think PAF should invest a lot of money on Jf-17 but at the same time they have to get a 4th/5th generation fighter! i.e. Rafale (if it is as successful as french say it is), Typhoon or SU30 ;)

[gf0012-aust]

exactly the unit price of each plane comes down...
but hey Aussie digger could u tell me more about rafale's failures... cuz till now i heard its a fantastic plane!!
Aussie digger to be honest if i was in PAF shoes i would never get JSF even if it was offered! for one obvious reason... you never know these back stabbing americans.. one min they might offer it.. the next day they wont give us the parts, weapons for the aircraft, which makes it compeltly useless fighter
i think PAF should invest a lot of money on Jf-17 but at the same time they have to get a 4th/5th generation fighter! i.e. Rafale (if it is as successful as french say it is), Typhoon or SU30 ;)

Australia suffered spares and equipment embargoes from both the French and the Swedes - we've never been denied access from the UK or US.

From our perpsective the reverse is the case.

[tahir_kheshgi]

huh? ur saying that Americans let us have the spares and weapons whenever we wanted for F-16s in the past????

[gf0012-aust]

huh? ur saying that Americans let us have the spares and weapons whenever we wanted for F-16s in the past????


No, not at all, I was just giving a different example of why we woiuld probably think very carefully about buying major assets from France - they screwed us last time.

I'm not sure if the Swedes embargoed us on the current events, but they did for Vietnam.

[mysterious]

I think you have to read gf's post ten times to get what he's trying to say. And what he's saying is true. :smokingc:

[adsH]

huh? ur saying that Americans let us have the spares and weapons whenever we wanted for F-16s in the past????

Tahir, GF is only saying that Australia suffered from the people that pakistan trusts and has trusted!!

[tahir_kheshgi]

right right..
i get u lot
but france isnt as bad as americans man
Pakistan has got the largest fleet of Mirages for a reason you know.
if pak gets any f-16s block 50/52s then i would b happy in the sence that these fighters are very high tech and will be a huge boost for PAF. but at the same time i would b scared at all times that if something goes wrong with these planes.. the parts will b embargoed as well as the weapons wen required!

[adsH]

right right..
i get u lot
but france isnt as bad as americans man
Pakistan has got the largest fleet of Mirages for a reason you know.
if pak gets any f-16s block 50/52s then i would b happy in the sence that these fighters are very high tech and will be a huge boost for PAF. but at the same time i would b scared at all times that if something goes wrong with these planes.. the parts will b embargoed as well as the weapons wen required!

thats true but when ever pak has had a conflict with india Frace has always stoped parts supply and supoort for there french equipment. by buying US stuff now pak can assure them selves that they would get the training and (i hope spares production abilites) under the MNNA status and the assureance that Pak would be supplied with the spares aswell as stockpile of other weapons and spare-parts!!

[tahir_kheshgi]

yea if there is some sort of 'transfer of tech' to make spares then yes!! why not!!! go for F-16s.. but untill that... i wouldnt go for it

can u elaborate more on the MNNA status? i dont know anything about i,
cheers

[gf0012-aust]

France stopped the supply of Miarge parts to Australia, and we built them over here, so we had the capcity to tool up if required, we then sold 50 of them to Pakistan. My understanding is that France has embargoed parts for you as well.

France embargoed in the last 25 years, argentina, peru, chile, south africa, israel, australia, taiwan, various countries in the middle east...

their track record is as long and as complicated as the USA's.

[Aussie Digger]

I think the Rafale is an excellent aircraft, I simpyl referred to the fact that it has lost every aircraft acquisition competition it has entered to date (bar French Air Force/Navy). There may be other reasons, but I think capability versus cost would be the main reason it has yet to win a foreign order. Yep be wary of French support. They refused to supply us with aircraft and weapons support when we intended to deploy our Mirage 111's to Vietnam. They themselves had only just finished (lost) their war there, but wouldn't allow us to deploy our assets (that they had any control over) there. Sweden was the same. We used the Carl Gustav anti armour weapon, (and still do, albeit in an upgraded form) but they refused to supply us with munitions for it, if we deployed that weapon system to Vietnam. They didn't have any choice in the recent Iraq war. We took the Carl Gustav (in it's upgraded form) to Iraq but never used it, (the Javelin was far superior) in any event the war only lasted 6 weeks and we wouldn't have used up our war stock in that time frame anyway. I also saw the other day that Australia placed an order with SAAB for the supply of RBS-70 SAM's (the latest "Bolide" Missile) ($32 Million) and additional Carl Gustav 84mm rounds, ($46 Million). So Sweden don't appear to be holding a grudge against us anyway. Here's the article:

Australian Army Awards Saab Orders Valued at More than MSEK 400


(Source: Saab AB; issued April 27, 2004)


Saab Bofors Dynamics has received orders from the Australian army for RBS70 Air Defence missiles and ammunition for the Carl-Gustaf anti-armour system.

"We are of course very pleased and proud to be given this further expression of confidence in our ability to deliver qualified systems to such a demanding customer as the Australian Army", said Mr. Tomas Samuelsson, President, Saab Bofors Dynamics AB.

The RBS70 contract is for the recently developed BOLIDE missile version and it is a follow-on order to the two previous contracts signed in 2003. The contract value is MSEK 180 circa. The RBS70 system first entered service with the Australian Army in the 1980´s.

The contract for ammunition for the man-portable Carl-Gustaf anti-armour systems includes several different types of ammunition. The contract value is MSEK 260 circa.

The above orders will not mean further job recruitment within the company.

Saab is one of the world’s leading high-technology companies, with its main operations focusing on defence, aviation and space. The group covers a broad spectrum of competence and capabilities in systems integration.

[This web add does not lead to the actual article, find alternative source] (press releases, April 27).

[srirangan]

Is this a joke?

SU-30MKI was specifically made for India, Russian build Israeli avionics and Indian software. Neither of these countries would sell anything of this sort to Pakistan.

So who was the source country going to be according to your "test-pilot"?

Admin edit: Try and make your responses a bit clearer as to the "poster" you are replying to. Otherwise, it makes it a bit difficult for a reader to work out which thread respondent you are disagreeing with.

[Londo Molari]

Pak may get SU-30

No.

[Revival_786]

It would be great if Pak could get new F-16s with ToT :D

But I would bet my money on the EF... SU-30 no way man :smokingc:

[Red aRRow]

This thread is now redundant. I am locking it.