Indian Navy charts new course with first doctrine

[Indianguy]

NEW DELHI, APRIL 25: The Indian Navy has published its first ever maritime doctrine that lays down a road map for development of the country’s sea power in the new millennium. The doctrine will be unveiled at the Naval Commanders’ Conference that begins at Visakhapatnam on Monday morning.

Significantly, the 148-page report, which comes weeks after the Indian Army released its new doctrine, moves away from earlier concepts of coastal protection and instead adopts new concepts of power-projection and littoral warfare to support land forces in operating in enemy territory. While several maritime strategies have been published by Naval headquarters earlier, this is the first time that an Indian Maritime Doctrine has been published and clearly spells out the need for a navy that is capable of conducting operations far from its shores.

The doctrine also notes developments in the immediate neighbourhood in the context of India’s maritime plans. The Chinese Navy, it says, ‘‘has acquired decommissioned aircraft carriers from Australia and Russia to study their construction details and evolve an indigenous design for a carrier by 2015’’. The Chinese Navy will now move from being a coastal navy to ‘‘an ocean-going one’’ and has plans to configure its force levels around ‘‘two carrier groups’’.

In its focus on Pakistan, it points out that Islamabad has contracted a $1 billion deal with France for Agosta 90B submarines, makes a note of its non-NATO ally status and projects a ‘‘quantum increase in its naval capability’’.

In addition to the long-established threat on the Western Seaboard, the Indian Navy underlines the strategic requirement to look East as well. The Singapore Navy, it says, has already acquired submarines and two Malaysian ones are under construction in European shipyards, while Thailand and Myanmar are negotiating to induct them too.

Power projection, the doctrine says, can take a number of forms such as ‘‘combatant evacuation, amphibious operations, maritime air support, strikes ashore and land attack’’.

With India having signed a contract with Russia to acquire the 44,000-tonne aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, with its complement of MiG-29K aircraft, the doctrine points out the need for a Carrier Battle Group as an instrument of sea control as well as sea denial.

The doctrine moves away from earlier strategies where the Navy was inward looking and now even looks at developing capabilities to deal with ‘‘conflict with an extra-regional power’’ and ‘‘protecting Persons of Indian Origin and Indian interests abroad’’.

The document also talks of military missions, including providing ‘‘conventional and strategic nuclear deterrence against regional states’’, as well as diplomatic missions to ‘‘enable the Government to use the Navy as an effective instrument of foreign policy”.

[adsH]

Hey guys i like this Indian Navy's multi threat thinking it shows that the indian navy is serious in defense

[gf0012-aust]

Indianguy, please remember to post links on news articles.

also can you find out whether there is an unclassified version of the report available?

Governments normally release 2 versions of a "white paper", 1 is internal and not for public release, the other is for the general public and to keep the media happy.

If you could tell me if there is a link avail for a public release version it would be much appreciated.

[Soldier]

Here you go GF. I just put a casual search query and all the main indian newspapers are reporting it. This is one of the links.
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=45789

Just so that you know, Indian Express has a tremendous reliability factor behind it compared to HINDUSTAN TIMES or TIMES OF INDIA.

[gf0012-aust]

Thanks for that Soldier.. I haven't read the Hindustani, but I have read the Times of India when I was in Mumbai - lots of adverts. ;)

If you can let me know if you see the full report, I would be interested in reading it. (I assume that they will make an unclassified version available).

Why china even bothered to look at our old aircraft carrier is beyond me. The design was relevant to less powerful aircraft and a different battle doctrine. You could get some ideas on bunkerage etc, and it might have some relevance in designing an LHA - but in real terms it was just 20,000 tonnes of scrap metal.

The Varyag doesn't look much better, it's almost semi-derelict. According to one contact I have he says that China is building a 48,000 tonne carrier at the same time that they are stripping the Varyag. I haven't seen any ships being built next to the Varyag though.

[Soldier]

Thanks for that Soldier.. I haven't read the Hindustani, but I have read the Times of India when I was in Mumbai - lots of adverts. ;)

If you can let me know if you see the full report, I would be interested in reading it. (I assume that they will make an unclassified version available).

Why china even bothered to look at our old aircraft carrier is beyond me. The design was relevant to less powerful aircraft and a different battle doctrine. You could get some ideas on bunkerage etc, and it might have some relevance in designing an LHA - but in real terms it was just 20,000 tonnes of scrap metal.

The Varyag doesn't look much better, it's almost semi-derelict. According to one contact I have he says that China is building a 48,000 tonne carrier at the same time that they are stripping the Varyag. I haven't seen any ships being built next to the Varyag though.

GF, with the booming economy like China and India, I think it made perfect sense for China to buy a scrap too from Australia, if that is how you put it. At least it gives an insight to building AC's from the very basic. China has money flowing and I guess starting from basics is the best approach to the end product.

[Indianguy]

India , is being neglecting Navy for decades ,. but its now time to Increase ther Production Line. India is investing heavy on its Nuclear Submarine Project . moreover Two AC is on the way in next 10 years.

IN should make its own Small Air Force to take Surface warhsips of enemy in Matter of mins

Their is aslo reports that India is going to Buy British AC , which is going to be decommissioned.

[Roger Smith]

India , is being neglecting Navy for decades ,. but its now time to Increase ther Production Line. India is investing heavy on its Nuclear Submarine Project . moreover Two AC is on the way in next 10 years.

IN should make its own Small Air Force to take Surface warhsips of enemy in Matter of mins

Their is aslo reports that India is going to Buy British AC , which is going to be decommissioned.


It means India will eventually have 3 ACs! :? :help

[umair]

Thanks for that Soldier.. I haven't read the Hindustani, but I have read the Times of India when I was in Mumbai - lots of adverts. ;)

If you can let me know if you see the full report, I would be interested in reading it. (I assume that they will make an unclassified version available).

Why china even bothered to look at our old aircraft carrier is beyond me. The design was relevant to less powerful aircraft and a different battle doctrine. You could get some ideas on bunkerage etc, and it might have some relevance in designing an LHA - but in real terms it was just 20,000 tonnes of scrap metal.

The Varyag doesn't look much better, it's almost semi-derelict. According to one contact I have he says that China is building a 48,000 tonne carrier at the same time that they are stripping the Varyag. I haven't seen any ships being built next to the Varyag though.

Well Gary, we maybe overlooking the prospect of revese engineering with major improvements.The Chinese specialise in this art. :D

[Indianguy]

Yea chinese don;t have any brains to invent something new .so they opt for reverse engg. So they will always remain behind then others in matter od technology becasue , when they build their system by using resverse engg that technology become obsolete. like Chinese making F-16 and US phrasing out F-16.

[Indianguy please show respect towards others and stop making blind generalizations. Next time such posts will be deleted. Thank you.]

[adsH]

Yea chinese don;t have any brains to invent something new .so they opt for reverse engg. So they will always remain behind then others in matter od technology becasue , when they build their system by using resverse engg that technology become obsolete. like Chinese making F-16 and US phrasing out F-16

It takes a Mind to copy another mind!!! which some of us here never utilize before opening up our Bigg Months!!!

[Indianguy]

Well Yea i prefer , Thats brians will be genious, who Made something new and move farward and become a leader rather then who follow them and beomce follower and adopt old technology when other moving towards new one.

Thats why US Ahead then other in Tech becasue they made something new rather then they copy others.

Like wise US Senctions againt India didn;t work , India Space Programm and Nuclear Programm become more stronger and independent and that why India takes its Own decisions in foreign policy rather then taking decision under some other influence. Like Sending Trrops to Iraq.

Having R&D and Strong Scientific base is a key to succes and those who don;t have R&D facility will depends on others. Like Gulf States depends on US for their defence Systems.

[mysterious]

Yes Gulf States lack the technological R & D base but hey, they dont have a problem with finances like India or Pakistan!! They have oil and their massive investments abroad to work for them perfectly. China is also struggling with finances and so it finds it more economical to look in to what others have made and then learn from that and create something more sophisticated. May I tell you that the US and other countries are more cautious about selling their equipment to China because of its reverse engineering speciality than they are in selling stuff to countries like India or Pakistan? They know that it will take far more years of head banging in India and Pakistan to make something like what the Americans can make but China would come up with it in a matter of couple of years. Reverse engineering is a rare speciality and I can proudly salute the Chinese for that. :smokingc:

[adsH]

Well Yea i prefer , Thats brians will be genious, who Made something new and move farward and become a leader rather then who follow them and beomce follower and adopt old technology when other moving towards new one.

Thats why US Ahead then other in Tech becasue they made something new rather then they copy others.

Like wise US Senctions againt India didn;t work , India Space Programm and Nuclear Programm become more stronger and independent and that why India takes its Own decisions in foreign policy rather then taking decision under some other influence. Like Sending Trrops to Iraq.

Having R&D and Strong Scientific base is a key to succes and those who don;t have R&D facility will depends on others. Like Gulf States depends on US for their defence Systems.


being "genius" does not mean you will make something new this is where the South Asian countries fall back on there backs, they are so obsessed with what a student got for his A level and Gcse's and his university grades. you guys miss out this bigg obvious fact that when you look at an american defence equipment its not based on precise Physical or Mathematical base it is is based on a concept an idea some comes from the need factor as they say "necessity is the mother of inventions". so all the american defence equipments have a strong creative/Artistic element in it which it embodies as a concpet. Maths and physics comes inn later how can you calculate design spec's when the idea does not exsist. therefore you have JF-17 and LCA J-10 or what ever this is what SAsian countries get when they have no creative input they just become a Mind numbing number crunching photo copiers. the Ability to perform good in maths and physics is secondary to Creativity which is a rare gift not every one can use it properly and some obviously choose to ignore it!! Now don't come back and tell me (INdian guy) that your LCA project has now suddenly been gifted with artictic people creating artistic fetures becasue when i see an LCA or J-17 I see a basic copy with minute diference but when i see a B-2 F-16(VERY OLD TREnD SETTER) and the JSF F-35 i see the artistic flare in the eyes of its creators.


You think of an idea, then draw it up and then tweek it with Maths geniuses !@!!!

Myst said:
"Reverse engineering is a rare speciality and I can proudly salute the Chinese for that. "

it is rare becasue its an art in its self. for some engineers it is a rush to see whats underneeth all the pritty Face. like when you see a Ferari you always wan't to see whats under the hood(the engine). mostly people that can't design new things like to work backwords they find it more supportive its like this when you sit on your table thinking creatvily banging you head againt the table its like trying to grab thoughts that do not exsist in reality. with a Reverse engineer you have the item on your desktop waiting to be ripped appart systimatically piece by piece. there are courses that you can do at uni i think that equip you with necessary skill to reverse engineer stuff!!!
Firstly you have to be equiped with more and better knowledge then the items desinger. becaue you have to compensate for that fact that out of the one million ways of desinging the item the designer chose a paticular way. the odds are one in million ways it will work. thats why all reverse engineers do not come up with the exact copies of the orignal item and sometimes they end up haveing a superior item.

[Indianguy]

Howcome yaar ..If you know US don;t provide India with HI tech Equiplemt and dual use Items which is easil avalable to chinese. American really fear of Indian rather the chinese thats why India is still under a ban on dual use items since pokhran test which Held under the very nose of US.

CI even Achnoledge that it is failed on Indian nuke and it is filed to penetrate Indian Nukes,.

The reason is that Increasing Indian SPace Power is going to Threat to the US space launching Industry , Since Launching will b cheap from Indian Rocket . US put ban on US made component statelites to be launched from China , which can;t be done with India easily.

US pressured Russia not seel cryogenic engines for space rockets which lead India to develop its own.

Well Sections is come Boon in desguise to India which helps in aciving Indgnisation and help our R&D Facility

Chine is not goin to seel any equiplmemt to India.

Infact China don;t have any problem with finances , Its 400 & billion in it reserve.

Well Oil deconomy is soon going to be replaced by Hydrogen Economy in next 20 years , Hydrogen fuel cell car prototype already out and soo to in mass production.

so you see when Westrean and other country is moving towards cheap hydrogen economy china is still struggling with Oil

[mysterious]

If I'm not mistaken, I believe you just said something about high-tech defense equipment being available to China and not India. Are you day dreaming or something? India buys all its major defense equipment primarily from Russia, then comes Israel and then the US, UK, France, etc. China on the other hand, purchases some items from Russia and an occassional purchase from Israel (too few) and it is under arms-embargo from the US and the EU (I hope you read the news). So now I dont see how China is getting all high-tech stuff but India is not. :D

As far as Hydrogen fuel-cell technology goes to replacing the good old oil, that is at least 30 years away from becoming economically viable. It just isnt economical to use hydrogen based technology yet and from the reports that I've read, I dont see it happen (as I said) before the coming 30 years to say the least. :smokingc:

[Indianguy]

I am item of dual use , which is avalable to china and not india .....and if read the news, then u know that thier is ban of dual use items on india. If india got US dual use of items it can make More high resolution satelitre then it has of

[adsH]

I am item of dual use , which is avalable to china and not india .....and if read the news, then u know that thier is ban of dual use items on india. If india got US dual use of items it can make More high resolution satelitre then it has of

you could be right india does have the ability to send small satellites in space but i think the Us has no embargo or restrictions on India i am sure they removed it!!

[mysterious]

The US has recently agreed to sell many dual use systems to India and NOT China. Wake up! Wake up!

[ipfreak]

If I'm not mistaken, I believe you just said something about high-tech defense equipment being available to China and not India. Are you day dreaming or something? India buys all its major defense equipment primarily from Russia, then comes Israel and then the US, UK, France, etc. China on the other hand, purchases some items from Russia and an occassional purchase from Israel (too few) and it is under arms-embargo from the US and the EU (I hope you read the news). So now I dont see how China is getting all high-tech stuff but India is not. :D

As far as Hydrogen fuel-cell technology goes to replacing the good old oil, that is at least 30 years away from becoming economically viable. It just isnt economical to use hydrogen based technology yet and from the reports that I've read, I dont see it happen (as I said) before the coming 30 years to say the least. :smokingc:

i think the militay related technologoy cooperation between china and israel is almost down the none due to the pressure from both clinton adn bush adminstrations. only country they can get something out is russia, but russia is very careful and it rather deal with india than china (nuke submarine leasing, supersonic surface-to-surface missile, long range strategic bombers, even kilo-class submarines fit better equipment just like su-30 MKI fit better avionics, better engines, better radar systems than su-30MKK). not that russians like indians better, it is matter of geopolitics.

eu? i don't eu would relax the saction against china anytime soon as long as NATO stays active.

again, i don't see any clear anamy for china either. only potential conflict would be the issue of taiwan. but taiwan has better navy and airfoce, actually i think at least right now, taiwan has better navy than india does ...

[mysterious]

Israel and India military relations almost down to nothing? I wish that was true. Israel just signed a deal for 3 Phalcons with India recently and there's more where that came from. China will have its EU arms embargo lifted in the near future and its not really a matter of NATO. About Taiwan, I hope you've read a recent analysis of Taiwan's defenses against a Chinese strike. Taiwan has five lines of defenses against a Chinese strike but they are highly vulnerable and cannot withstand the pressure of a Chinese attack. There's a limit as to how much quantity can be stopped by quality. Chinese numbers are too massive for Taiwan to entertain. China already has more than 500 ballistic missiles pointed towards Taiwan.

[gf0012-aust]

Israel and India military relations almost down to nothing?

Israel and China - not Israel and India. I don't think it's true in both cases either.

I know of an Israeli contracter working on Arjun and another working on missile technology projects. As for the Chinese - they clearly want Israeli help on EW projects and continuing support in aviation. The Israelis are some of the best systems integraters in the world, and they are one of the few nations who have worked with all major weapons systems and types.

[adsH]

Israel and India military relations almost down to nothing? I wish that was true. Israel just signed a deal for 3 Phalcons with India recently and there's more where that came from. China will have its EU arms embargo lifted in the near future and its not really a matter of NATO. About Taiwan, I hope you've read a recent analysis of Taiwan's defenses against a Chinese strike. Taiwan has five lines of defenses against a Chinese strike but they are highly vulnerable and cannot withstand the pressure of a Chinese attack. There's a limit as to how much quantity can be stopped by quality. Chinese numbers are too massive for Taiwan to entertain. China already has more than 500 ballistic missiles pointed towards Taiwan.

WOW !!! Myst China has no intention of detroying the Western infrastructure that that the western world has developed they wan't to annex the island just like they did to HK they took a perfectly good flurishing micro but powerfull economy from our hands and we handed it over. we should of called it off!! HK people really like to be Bristish subjects its not as if we were brutal to them they had there leader our protection our monetary support our investment and all the freedom to come and go into our country there authorities there and there governance and all that is jeopardized by the chinese rule there now!! i don't think China could ever take over Taiwan they may have the force on the land but they would need see fareing logistics that they don't have !!! and they would not bomb the island!!!

[mysterious]

Yes exactly my point. If China wanted to take out Taiwan with force, it could've done that (at whatever cost) long time back but it wants the Taiwan as it is (developed and working) like it got Hong Kong thats why China is still playing diplomatically to get Taiwan and has shown major patience to this day. Hong Kong under British rule never had democracy so why cry about it now? And everyone knows what kind of democracy goes on in the UK and US so its rather useless to try and dig your own grave by discussing all that over and over again. :smokingc:

[gf0012-aust]

China will have its EU arms embargo lifted in the near future and its not really a matter of NATO. About Taiwan, I hope you've read a recent analysis of Taiwan's defenses against a Chinese strike. Taiwan has five lines of defenses against a Chinese strike but they are highly vulnerable and cannot withstand the pressure of a Chinese attack. There's a limit as to how much quantity can be stopped by quality. Chinese numbers are too massive for Taiwan to entertain. China already has more than 500 ballistic missiles pointed towards Taiwan.

This Taiwan-China scenario has been discussed elsewhere - so I'll cut and paste what I've written off site. The topic revolved around Chinas ability to conduct a landing and if not successfully, then to escalate to a nuclear strike.

The mainland doesn't have the capacity to airlift and/or sealift the quantum of troops required to get ashore, seize and hold. It would end up being the oriental version of Gallipoli.

The total airlift capacity of the PRC that could be used in a parachute operation of approx around 3,000 tonnes (after counting all of the An-2s in service - they make up a third of it!) This is enough for a division if the soldiers are not resupplied and only carry small arms ammunition. Assuming no attrition, it may be enough to keep a brigade in combat - and that is using the entire airlift capacity of the PRC!

The total sealift capability of Chinas mercahnt navy would not even be able to undertake operation Overlord - which was on a targetted landing spot - not an island.

as for nukes:

1) Destroys surface civilian infrastructure, thus making the cost of rebuilding a substantial negative

2) Will not guarantee the complete destruction of Taiwans military infrastructure that is underground and in nuke resistant shelters - hence leaves open the chance of retributive strike solutions (with all that they have left, and will then have no compunction in launching)

3) Will destroy any feeling of goodwill that is supposed to be the whole crux of unification, and will certainly be seen as retributive rather than a process of unification

4) The fall out will have disasterous side effects on neighbouring countries who may then elect to respond conventionally. If the wind blows the wrong way, I cannot see Japan or South Korea taking it on the chin

5) I doubt that any series of salvoes of nuke tipped SRBM's could deliver the yield required to eliminate all of the Taiwanese surface assets. Taiwan has substantial underground assets - and they are hardened.

6) Ipso facto, the use of multiple nukes, would make the attack one of deliberate intent and opens the doors for a retaliatory strike by Taiwans neighbours and principle ally. It would by association justify the use of nukes as a reponse, if not by the US, then perhaps by Taiwan itself.

7) Would destroy any hope of gaining UN resolution and support due to the nature of the attacks.

As a lesson in tactical expedience, it's not the smartest opening gambit in waging war. Anyone who thinks that the Taiwanese are a pushover is making some pretty bold assumptions.

For all their bluff and bluster, China is not even remotely capable of invading and holding Taiwan. The thing that everyone tends to ignore is that sustained warfighting is not about rockets, missiles, artillery, fancy jet fighters etc... it's won by logistics. China, definitely does not have logistical capabilities to engage in a transnational war.

[adsH]

Yes exactly my point. If China wanted to take out Taiwan with force, it could've done that (at whatever cost) long time back but it wants the Taiwan as it is (developed and working) like it got Hong Kong thats why China is still playing diplomatically to get Taiwan and has shown major patience to this day. Hong Kong under British rule never had democracy so why cry about it now? And everyone knows what kind of democracy goes on in the UK and US so its rather useless to try and dig your own grave by discussing all that over and over again. :smokingc:

LOL myst mate whats wrong with democracy in teh UK and US

[Soldier]

Yes exactly my point. If China wanted to take out Taiwan with force, it could've done that (at whatever cost) long time back but it wants the Taiwan as it is (developed and working) like it got Hong Kong thats why China is still playing diplomatically to get Taiwan and has shown major patience to this day. Hong Kong under British rule never had democracy so why cry about it now? And everyone knows what kind of democracy goes on in the UK and US so its rather useless to try and dig your own grave by discussing all that over and over again. :smokingc:

LOL myst mate whats wrong with democracy in teh UK and US

Hell Yeah, Even I would like to know what is wrong with the democracy in UK. I consider UK to be more democratic of all the democratic countries in the world with freedom of saying things against the government too by a normal civilian. I wonder what prompts Mysterious to say that Hongkong was never democratic under British rule. Perhaps this is why more then half of the population of Hongkong wanted Britain to stay.... :P

[gf0012-aust]

I think Myst might have got something out of context. I've worked in Hong Kong prior to 1997, and it was clearly a democracy. It was one of the easiest places in the world to live in and had very very robust freedom of speech etc...

Up until 1997, I was thinking of living there for work.

[mysterious]

It was somewhat closer to a democracy (HongKong) but not truly one! Yes it has had more restrictions now since it came under Chinese control but oh well, Chinese have their own style of governance. Come on! Dont get me started on what kind of democracy prevails in the UK and the US otherwise people will then start maligning me as a hardline anti-western person or blah blah. Just give yourself a flashback in time and you'll know what kind of democracies they are! Recent example, Iraq war (please I'm tired of venting my lungs out over this again n again in every other thread, dont want to do it anymore). If UK was so democratic and its government responded to the wishes of its people, it wouldn't have wagged its tail behind the US blindly on Iraq. Now we see Blair having a crunch time day in and day out and getting critisized like hell at the House of Commons all the time (at times, looking at his face, I have the feeling as if he's going to cry and beg forgiveness of the opposition). Just my opinion. Not in the mood to have any fights here. Thnx :smokingc:

[adsH]

It was somewhat closer to a democracy (HongKong) but not truly one! Yes it has had more restrictions now since it came under Chinese control but oh well, Chinese have their own style of governance. Come on! Dont get me started on what kind of democracy prevails in the UK and the US otherwise people will then start maligning me as a hardline anti-western person or blah blah. Just give yourself a flashback in time and you'll know what kind of democracies they are! Recent example, Iraq war (please I'm tired of venting my lungs out over this again n again in every other thread, dont want to do it anymore). If UK was so democratic and its government responded to the wishes of its people, it wouldn't have wagged its tail behind the US blindly on Iraq. Now we see Blair having a crunch time day in and day out and getting critisized like hell at the House of Commons all the time (at times, looking at his face, I have the feeling as if he's going to cry and beg forgiveness of the opposition). Just my opinion. Not in the mood to have any fights here. Thnx :smokingc:

MYSt we had a million people march(well more then that) out in london demonstrating our freedom of speach this freedom of speech reflects our democrative values. now if the majority feel that Prime minister blair was wrong then the elections are coming up and the polls will decide. this is how democracy functions you select a party/person to repersent your self and then allow him to make decisions :) and trust me the amount of freedom offered here no one else is anywhere in the world the media bashes the Govt more than any countries media is allowed to bash there govt!! china is adictorial comunist nation with set prinicipals it's not a governance i would like to be living inn and they are ruining the HK economy since they took over, Hk is in recesion. there are so many Hk people that love to hold there british passports rather then there chinese ones!!!

[mysterious]

Just 'cuz a handful preferred holding on to British passports and not Chinese ones, doesn't give the right to a colonial power to separate one type of people from their own homeland. Britan realized long ago that it could not function as a colonial power for long as no matter how much freedom you give to the people you're ruling, they will have stronger ties with their own people than someone foreign sitting on their heads. Democracy is not 'always' the best solution to everything.

[adsH]

Just 'cuz a handful preferred holding on to British passports and not Chinese ones, doesn't give the right to a colonial power to separate one type of people from their own homeland. Britan realized long ago that it could not function as a colonial power for long as no matter how much freedom you give to the people you're ruling, they will have stronger ties with their own people than someone foreign sitting on their heads. Democracy is not 'always' the best solution to everything.

Ok (NO offence Ausie digger and GF) but myst look at Australia and Canada they are still part of our monarch our queen still rules as the head of state with appointed governors and the Australians and the Canadians have a sense of pride in that a pride on being apart of a history, thats what Common wealth form is (ithink) HK was never treated any differnt may thats why HK like holding onn to there pasports there aren't just a few that hold British subject Pasports. and trust me they may be Chinese from origin but they sure the hell act English !!!

[mysterious]

Ahem Ahem! Dont mean to offend anyone or act as a racist but Canada and Australia are both "white" countries like the UK while Hong Kong, Pakistan, India, etc are not.

[gf0012-aust]

Ahem Ahem! Dont mean to offend anyone or act as a racist but Canada and Australia are both "white" countries like the UK while Hong Kong, Pakistan, India, etc are not.

ahem ahem: 28-4-2004

People born overseas increased Australia's population by 250,000 over the five years to 30 June 2002, according to Australian Bureau of Statistics figures released today.

By comparison, people born in Australia increased by 868,000 over the same period. The percentage of people born overseas remained stable at 23% of the population.

After the United Kingdom (with 1.1 million people or 6% of Australia's population in 2002) the next largest country of birth groups were New Zealand (414,000 people or 2% of Australia's population), Italy (235,000 or 1.2%), Viet Nam (172,000 or 0.9%) and China (165,000 or 0.8%).

New Zealanders (90,000 people), Chinese (33,000 people), South Africans (29,000 people) and Indians (23,000 people) added the largest numbers of people to Australia's population in the five year period (after Australian-born).

People born in Iraq and South Africa were the fastest-growing groups in Australia's population over the same period (9% and 8% a year on average respectively). However, the Iraq-borns' rapid growth was partly as a result of starting from a small base (19,100 in 1997).

People born in the United Kingdom continue to make up the largest percentage of overseas-born people, but this figure has declined by 0.6% per year over the five year period.

Meanwhile, the Australian population born in Southern and Eastern Europe declined 38,000 (down 0.9% a year on average) and North-West Europe declined 37,000 (down 0.5% a year on average) with continuing decline in immigration from those regions.

Net overseas migration continues to become more important to Australia's population growth, with more than half of annual growth coming from migration (125,300 people in 2002-03) and the rest coming from natural increase, the excess of births over deaths (115,200).

While there were 11% more settlers arriving in Australia from 2001-02 to 2002-03, permanent departures also increased, by 10%. There is a continuing trend toward Australian-born people leaving permanently - this comprised around half of all permanent departures since 1998-99.

http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/cd7a3322c1efbee2ca256e8400000472?OpenDocument

In the state of victoria there are over a total of 151 languages are spoken in Victoria, originating from 208 countries

In all my little travels, the only place on earth where I have seen greater racial diversity is in Amsterdam - and that certainly doesn't qualify as a country. ;)

[Red aRRow]

:cop :cop OK people back to the topic please. Somehow the discussion turned from Indian navy to racial makeup of societies. :? :? Need to get back on topic. If somebody wants to discuss world societies, integration, racial pie-charts etc. they are welcome to open a new topic in the Social and Political Forum. :cop :cop

[corsair7772]

Yea bac 2 topic.

The doctrine sounds an awful lot like a shopping list rather than a strategy.

Besides, Indian doesnt have a threat from china. If it wont enrage my fellow indian counterparts, i cud be bold enuff to say that india uses china as an excuse for technolgical an militry escalation. It only needs to defeat pakistan and doesnt need an entire AC taskforce for that. :P

[amit21mech]

Yea bac 2 topic.

The doctrine sounds an awful lot like a shopping list rather than a strategy.

Besides, Indian doesnt have a threat from china. If it wont enrage my fellow indian counterparts, i cud be bold enuff to say that india uses china as an excuse for technolgical an militry escalation. It only needs to defeat pakistan and doesnt need an entire AC taskforce for that. :P

If somebody kills 2 birds with single stone than thrower will not be get enraged but feel proud.

[adsH]

Yea bac 2 topic.

The doctrine sounds an awful lot like a shopping list rather than a strategy.

Besides, Indian doesnt have a threat from china. If it wont enrage my fellow indian counterparts, i cud be bold enuff to say that india uses china as an excuse for technolgical an militry escalation. It only needs to defeat pakistan and doesnt need an entire AC taskforce for that. :P

If somebody kills 2 birds with single stone than thrower will not be get enraged but feel proud.

LOL !! Amit mate depends if the second bird belongs to a Group (GANG) of birds that would come back to haunt you !!! :D

[amit21mech]

Yea bac 2 topic.

The doctrine sounds an awful lot like a shopping list rather than a strategy.

Besides, Indian doesnt have a threat from china. If it wont enrage my fellow indian counterparts, i cud be bold enuff to say that india uses china as an excuse for technolgical an militry escalation. It only needs to defeat pakistan and doesnt need an entire AC taskforce for that. :P

If somebody kills 2 birds with single stone than thrower will not be get enraged but feel proud.

LOL !! Amit mate depends if the second bird belongs to a Group (GANG) of birds that would come back to haunt you !!! :D

Once killed( defeated) no one will come to the help. And this is what cruel world of reality. However I hope birds behave themselves and India does not have to throw the stone. Now do not stretch it too much. Tu to bach jaeyga per Mod muje ban kar dega. :roll

[adsH]

Yea bac 2 topic.

The doctrine sounds an awful lot like a shopping list rather than a strategy.

Besides, Indian doesnt have a threat from china. If it wont enrage my fellow indian counterparts, i cud be bold enuff to say that india uses china as an excuse for technolgical an militry escalation. It only needs to defeat pakistan and doesnt need an entire AC taskforce for that. :P

If somebody kills 2 birds with single stone than thrower will not be get enraged but feel proud.

LOL !! Amit mate depends if the second bird belongs to a Group (GANG) of birds that would come back to haunt you !!! :D

Once killed( defeated) no one will come to the help. And this is what cruel world of reality. However I hope birds behave themselves and India does not have to throw the stone. Now do not stretch it too much. Tu to bach jaeyga per Mod muje ban kar dega. :roll

LOL i meant china's NAVY being the second bird !! its other Armed servies being the other Birds in there Gang lol

[amit21mech]

>> LOL i meant china's NAVY being the second bird !! its other Armed servies being the other Birds in there Gang lol <<

Chidiyon kee baat nahin hai sirf...Unse har jagah aage jana hai
Khwaboon ko poor hone mein ...waqt to lagta hai..

(It not just the matter of "Birds"...We would beat them in every field)
( Its take time to fullfill your dreams)

[Soldier]

Yea bac 2 topic.

The doctrine sounds an awful lot like a shopping list rather than a strategy.

Besides, Indian doesnt have a threat from china. If it wont enrage my fellow indian counterparts, i cud be bold enuff to say that india uses china as an excuse for technolgical an militry escalation. It only needs to defeat pakistan and doesnt need an entire AC taskforce for that. :P

Corsair, There is no immediate threat from China as of now since China is more focussed on Taiwan Issue. Both countries China & India are currently involved with their economy which is a good thing. The threat perception is long term and for that Indian Navy is charting its course which any wise nation will do. Besides screaming wolf about China helps India to arm itself more, then what the heck? Every nation does it.
As to defeating Pakistan, As Nuclear arsenals of both countries become more advanced day by day, you can be sure there will be no winner in case of a war other then Goddess Destruction. I do not think it will ever come to that point.