Time for a New rifle/Small arms system

[Libyan]

Immagine if you would, Pakistan deciding to replace its g3's

However pakistan will need something cost effective.

Pakistan further will need something with high reliability,and the ability to do multi missions off one basic design.

Immagine if pakistan was to use the ak-47 as the basis of a new rifle and instead of firing standard 7.62/39 it used the same cartridge but with a .220 bullet (.220 russian is used by precision sport shooters and is incredibly accurate its based off the same cartrige as 7.62/39)

so here you have the high reliability and easy to aquire and manufacture AK in the Following variants

carbine (with shorter barell and a folding stock)
Rifle (Full barell and Folding stock for light weight)
Support Rifle(Heavy barell and bipod full stock for aupported automatic fire)
Sniper/Marksmans rifle (Heavy Barell and bipod)


Next you will need a Heavier rifle and a True General Purpose machine gun


I suggest attempting to convert the Mg.03 to 7.62/54 russian rimmed as in interm solution

The choice of .338 by most of the worlds special ops for long range engagements would be perfect for both a precision sniper rifle and heavy tripod based machine gun. Again I believe the old robust mg.03 could be modified to fire .338 LM

In closing we must remember that the mg.3 is a weapon which originated in world war two , it has been put into several dozen calibres from 7.92/57, 7.62/51 7.62/54 .

[umair]

Pakistan is already in the process of replacing it's HK-G3's with the Steyr-Aug(license produced in Pakistan at POF Wah)

[Revival_786]

How good is the new gun?

[umair]

Gary explanation please!(my land weapon/infantry equipment knowledge is quite sparse)

[amit21mech]

Pakistan is already in the process of replacing it's HK-G3's with the Steyr-Aug(license produced in Pakistan at POF Wah)

Which variant u want to tell us??

[umair]

As I said my knowledge of infantry weapon specs is sparse.
Ask me anything about aircraft though :D

[gf0012-aust]

The G3 is about 45 years old. It was the std assault weapon for the Germans for a number of years, and is now relegated to the reserves. Its a pretty popular gun and was sold to over 45 countries (IIRC)

Std 7.62 NATO round.

The Stey is a completely diff weapon, lighter, 5.56 and is a Bullpup, so it's an ideal urban assault, tight area weapon. It's also easier to manage if the operater is in a vehicle.

Aussie Gunner has been a AuSteyr (Australian modified Steyr) user, so he should be able to give you an idea of how he thinks it handles

I've used FN-SLR's/(FAL's), different again, std NATO 7.62, long barrel, not the best for urban assault, but urban assault wasn't really a design consideration for it.

[Aussie Digger]

The Steyr is a good rifle.I don't know if it's "the best", but it serves the Australian Army (and quite a few others including, New Zealand, Malaysia, Austria, Ireland etc) very well. The weapon is extremely accurate and is easy to shoot. It is sufficiently robust for most conditions and is very reliable if maintained correctly. The weapon is nice and compact for urban and jungle environments and sufficiently accurate (thanks to it's optical sight and long barrell, a benefit of it's bullpup configuration), for long range shooting (desert or grassland type environments). The weapon has a 30 round mag that is opaque to allow a quick assessment of the amount of ammunition remaining in the magazine. The weapon is capable of attaching a full range of external devices (including a bayonet, 40mm Grenade Launcher, night/laser aiming devices, different optical or night vision/thermal imaging sights, torches or basically anything else you might consider hanging off a rifle...) The weapon is available in Carbine (9mm or 5.56mm versions), assault rifle or light support weapon variants. The Australian Army chose this weapon after extensive testing against the M16 A2 and considered the Steyr to be superior. I have employed a number of other rifles in my service including FN-FAL (SLR's), M16 A1/2's and am familiar with AK-47, AK-74 and Chines Type 56 weapons. I consider the Steyr to be superior to any of these weapons based on my experience. I know Special forces generally prefer the M4 series of weapons, but I have heard they've recently complained about the weapons range and accuracy. Something no-one has ever questioned of the Steyr. ONe more thing. There was an "urban myth" going around when I was in the ADF, "that no-one had ever survived after being shot with a Steyr." Certainly no-one I ever knew who had actually fired the weapon in anger had only wounded the person he was shooting at... The Somalian's had a term for the Steyr afer 1 RAR served in Somalia in 1993. It escapes me at the moment but meant, "the gun that never misses"... They learned that the hard way unfortunately...

[Awang se]

Yep! my personal weapon is M4. I find it quite easy to handle and very user friendly. The problem is, beyond 200 meters, the shot begin to spread. i retain 92% accuracy at 150m and 87 at 200. but at 250 it drop to 43. quite a drop. I've use Steyr and find it very conveniant for long range engagement. But it is quite hard to handle. maybe it's only me because i rarely use this weapon. by the way, the weapons looks futuristic. I don't agree that the weapon is lighter than M16. Steyr is slightly heavier than M16. furthermore, many Malaysian Army veterans who use M16 before complaining about the handling of this weapons in the tropical jungle.

[Aussie Digger]

I only ever used M16A1 versions, not later versions which may account for the weight issue. I never had any problem handling a Steyr and my shooting was always reasonable (I was never selected to do the Sniper course, even though I spent a fair amount of time in a Recon platoon, put it that way... Australian Army snipers are employed within the "sniper cell", in the Recon platoon.) I used the Steyr for years in jungle environments (Tully in far North Queensland mainly) and never had any problems with it. It does require some fairly careful cleaning, but otherwise it's fine...

[Awang se]

I only ever used M16A1 versions, not later versions which may account for the weight issue. I never had any problem handling a Steyr and my shooting was always reasonable (I was never selected to do the Sniper course, even though I spent a fair amount of time in a Recon platoon, put it that way... Australian Army snipers are employed within the "sniper cell", in the Recon platoon.) I used the Steyr for years in jungle environments (Tully in far North Queensland mainly) and never had any problems with it. It does require some fairly careful cleaning, but otherwise it's fine...

Hey! i'm a recon platoon leader once. nice to meet the same breed.

Compare to the M16, i have to struggle a bit to cock and chamber a bullet. the gas regulator always stuck to something when operating in the thick bush. Of course the scope is really helping in improving long range aiming. somethig that M16 amiss.

[Aussie Digger]

I was a section commander, (Corporal), I was never really interested in Commissioned rank, though the opportunity was offered to me before I discharged. I never intended to make a career out of the military. I had different goals. As an aside a mate of mine who joined at the same time I did (who took up the option of Officer Training, whilst being a full time NCO) is now a Major in the Australian Army... He is currently attached to a training school in the Army, but will soon be a commander of an Infantry company and has served 2 tours in East Timor, has undertaken a stint in Special Forces after successfully completing the entry requirements (for 4 RAR Commando) and has served overseas as an observer on a number of UN operations. I got out at the right time didn't I...

[dabrownguy]

I would recomend the Type 95 rifle because it uses 5.8 rounds so it would be useless to the likily enemy the IA. IA has taken the 5.56 rounds already and the best choice is Type 95 because the 7.62 rounds are inaccurate these days. The problem with Type 95 is that it is bad in Kargil style operations and its not as accurate as 5.56.

[gf0012-aust]

because the 7.62 rounds are inaccurate these days

Thats just a little wrong.. ;)

There are a number of things to consider with a round:

propellant mix
propellant type
platform (eg rifle, carbine type)
length of barrel
range to target
combat environment

I'd rather be shot at by a 5.56 or a 5.68 at 500m than by someone armed with a 7.62 SLR.

Bigger hole going in and a far bigger hole going out

7.62's fell out of normal load favour due to:

less rounds clould be carried per trooper due to size and weight differences
The US made a new standard, so all prev 7.62 users fell in to line

otherwise, there are a number of people who would definitely want to go into with the larger cal weapon. Thats why in a squad one guy will babysit the minimi 7.62 SMG, it's better at suppressing fire and better at stopping something from a distance.

[Awang se]

The problem with the Kalashnikov 7.62 is the propellant is not enough to push a bullet to a level of 5.56. I've try SLR before. You should see the size of the bullets. It's longer than the 7.62 round use by AK families and contain more propellant powder.

[Aussie Digger]

In actual fact, the 5.56mm NATO SS109 round is considerably more lethal than the old NATO Standard 7.62x51mm round. Studies showed that 7.62 NATO rounds often went straight through a soldier leaving him capable of fighting on, though no doubt in great pain. 5.56mm rounds have a flatter trajectory and have a tendency to "break up" after hitting a human being, thus creating additional wounds. 7.62mm rounds often went straight through and out the other side!!! I think dabrownguy might be referring to 7.62mm Russian rounds (7.62x38mm, standard AK-47 round), which is an obsolete round and is not used much even by the Russians anymore. They use 5.45mm rounds in their frontline assault rifles now. The emphasis these days is to try and wound a soldier rather than kill him outright. the strain placed on medical services tends to drain resources (and hopefully) an ability to fight, quicker than dead soldiers. The 7.62mm rounds are no less accurate than they ever were. What would change? The main reason for the SLR's acccuracy is the length of it's barrel. A 5.56mm rifle with a similar length would be just as accurate, if not more so. This is also applies to the velocity of the projectile. (5.56mm NATO rounds have a much greater velocity than 7.62mm rounds, generally). The length of the barrel has an effect on the rifling on the inside of the barrel, the higher the velocity, the greater the "spin" imparted to the projectile and hence the greater the accuracy. The Minimi is chambered for 5.56mm, the same round as NATO standard assault rifles. When firing a single round from a minimi you can obtain great accuracy (particularly Australian versions which are fitted with optical scopes) at long range, (the accurate range of a minimi is around 800m's) possibly as much or more so than an SLR. I think perhaps you are confusing the Minimi with the MAG-58 7.62mm GPMG?

[gf0012-aust]

I think perhaps you are confusing the Minimi with the MAG-58 7.62mm GPMG?

Geez, not my day, you're right again. ;) HTF I mixed a minimi with a 7.62 is beyond me...

2 stuff ups in 1 day... I should take a panadol and lie down for a while.... ;)

[Aussie Digger]

That's okay, I'm not trying to be picky though...

[Awang se]

SLR i think has an effective range of 1000m if i'm not mistaken. The break up effect in 5.56 you mention i think is base on what materials use for the bullets. I recall something about the type of blunt soft bullets being banned sometimes ago. I saw picture of people being wounded by M16 5.56 round and by 7.62 SLR round. The latter is a mess. The man lost quarter of his skull.

[Aussie Digger]

That may well be in an indirect role. I'd like to see someone fire aimed shots at 1000m's with an SLR. Even 7.62mm Sniper rifles need a lot of assistance at that range, ie: 12x optical scopes, a spotter with a high powered scope(usually 100x magnification) and specialist shooting techniques. Machine guns have no problem firing at this range and beyond, however they generally pour fire onto the target (it becomes in effect a "beaten zone"a rough area where the rounds will land) until it's destroyed, they can't fire with a high level of accuracy though.

[gf0012-aust]

SLR i think has an effective range of 1000m if i'm not mistaken. The break up effect in 5.56 you mention i think is base on what materials use for the bullets. I recall something about the type of blunt soft bullets being banned sometimes ago. I saw picture of people being wounded by M16 5.56 round and by 7.62 SLR round. The latter is a mess. The man lost quarter of his skull.

I think you're talking about dumdum bullets which are banned under the geneva convention. also cross hatched bullets etc....

I've always had a soft spot for the SLR, they're just not the most portable of weapons though (compared to a Steyr ;)

[Aussie Digger]

Nope, SS109 rounds are normal Full Metal Jacket rounds, in compliance with the Geneva Convention. It's just that through some feature of their design (perhaps their reduced cross-section maybe, compared to 7.62mm) and/or the extremely high velocity of the projectile, they have a tendency to shatter upon impact. The effect of this is that the projectile normally shatters when it hits a solid part of a human body (or any other hard substance) and creates multiple wounds within the body, thus hopefully (for the firer, not the recipient) creating a more devasting wound. It's a terrible thing I know, but that's war for you. This effect and the accuracy of the weapon is the reason the Steyr has been such a deadly effective weapon. I referred in an earlier post that a rumour used to go around in the RAA that no-one had ever survived when shot by a Steyr...

[umair]

Less graphic please guys! :sick :puke

[Aussie Digger]

Sorry guys, I wasn't trying to be so graphic, I could have talked about blunt trauma, entry/exit wounds and the actual effects (physiology) of a bullet hitting a human being, but it would no doubt gross most people out and they'd go else where. Unfortunately I had to mention some of these things to explain fully, why the 5.56mm round is preferred to 7.62mm rounds these days. The ability to carry more 5.56mm rounds is simply one reason to adopt it. There are many others...

[Revival_786]

Anyone has pics of the Steyr gun? :)

[Awang se]

http://www.remtek.com/arms/steyr/aug/specs/family.gif

And check this South african rifle

http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearms/assault/img/v_cr21.gif

[Deltared075]

I think you're talking about dumdum bullets which are banned under the geneva convention. also cross hatched bullets etc....

I've always had a soft spot for the SLR, they're just not the most portable of weapons though (compared to a Steyr ;)


I wonder why they banned the bullet??
Weapons were designed to kill, does it matter killing pretty or ugly?

[Aussie Digger]

Dum-dum bullets or properly manufactured rounds known as "hollow points" create horrific wounds, but have a tendency to incapacitate a person rather than kill them outright, though obviously they do kill people. It was decided that these bullets should be banned for military usage due to the damage they do to people who survive. They truly are cruel and inhuman. In saying that however, hollow point rounds are used by police services worldwide, which aren't covered by that particular convention...

[Deltared075]

US cluster bomb also do a lot of damage, why dun banned it?
I dun think a soldier will have much left for his body even he survived?

what a stupid rule!

[lamdacore]

can someone give a detail info on what exactly 5.56mm, 7.62mm rounds are in terms of their make, capability, pros and cons. I'm actually a bit poor in this field so some good info from informative people would be helpful.

[Aussie Digger]

I think it's a good rule Delta. Anything that reduces pain and suffering is good isn't it? Sure other ways to kill people remain and probably always will, but it's better than nothing. Info on 5.56mm and 7.52mm rounds eh? Whew!!! Have you got all day to spare?

Okay, the SS109 5.56mm round as it is known is the standard rifle round for NATO Countries and it's allies. It is a round chambered in 5.56x45mm (ie: the diameter of the projectile is 5.56mm wide and the length of the projectile is 45mm long) The Standard round is a 67.9 grain projectile (projectile weights are measured in grains, not grams.) The round when fired from a NATO standard rifle gnerally has a velocity in the vicinity of 3025 feet per second. This round is a full metal jacket round (ie: it has a copper casing around a steel penetrator) and is designed to be capable of penetrating a 10mm steel plate at 570 metres.

This round is normally used in NATO standard rifles (M-16/M4, SA-80, FAMAS, Steyr AUG, G36 etc) and light support weapons (FN-Minimi SA-80 Light Support Weapon, etc). The 7.62mm round is the older NATO standard round and is predominantly still used in general purpose machine guns, (M60E3, MAG-58/M240 etc) sniper rifles and countries still using older rifles such as the FN-FAL (SLR) or G3. The round is chambered for 7.62mm with a projectile length of 51mm. The projectile weights vary, but are generally around the 145 grain, mark. The velocity of the round also varies but is generally around the 2750 feet per second mark. This round as you can see is much bigger and heavier than the 5.56mm, but has a slower velocity. It is much more accurate over long ranges than the 5.56mm, but as it is bigger and heavier generally less rounds can be carried, which is the primary (though not the only) reason it was replaced by 5.56mm. The 7.62mm also produces far more recoil than the 5.56mm round and thus is far less controllable on an automatic weapons. (GPMG's excepted, due to their size and weight).

The round is still used in GPMG's and sniper rifle's due to it's range, accuracy and penetrating power. Both rounds are still widely manufactured by just about every country on Earth (even ex-Soviet bloc countries). The Soviet 7.62mm round confuses some people. It is known as 7.62mm short, due to the projectile being chambered for 7.62mm diameter, but only 39mm in length ( ie" 7.62mmx39). The Soviet 7.62mm is therefore much less powerful than the NATO 7.62mm round and is more comparable to the 5.56mm round. This is just the basics. There is far more to learn on this subject and a quick "Googleing" will provide you with more info than you would ever want to know about this stuff... Cheers.


[Admin: AD, very hard to read everything in one paragraph. :)]

[Deltared075]

Pain and Suffering will make the enemies fear of you! They will think twice before go fighting with you.

[Aussie Digger]

Have you ever been a professional soldier Delta? You accept the risk that you may be killed or injured when you sign up for Military Service. A specific type of bullet isn't going to concern you overly. The idea to ban "dum-dum" bullets was considered such a good idea, that even the Soviet Bloc agreed to it. Doesn't that change your opinion just a bit? Everyone else in the world basically decided they should be banned from Military use.

Besides if one country introduced them, so would other countries and YOU would have just as much to fear as your enemies. Sorry but the case against them is much greater than the case for them will ever be. Much like the case against Land Mines is becoming these days. Nearly all Western Countries have banned the use of Land Mines in their militaries. I wouldn't mind betting that Cluster Bombs will follow the same fate soon. The US/UK have basically stopped using them operationally (although they are still in the inventory) and many Countries (including Australia) don't even have them in their inventories.

How's that Webs?

[VICTORA1]

Aussie,
Nice job on explaining the difference on the 2 different type of rounds.

[lalith prasad]

the reason why dumdums were banned was that the effect was too ghastly.the reason why the 5.56 was accepted atleast by the indian army was that it reduced weight and that it has superior dynamic also india army beleives that if you injure an enemy two people will be require to remove him thus effectively removing three people from the scene of battle whereas you leave the dead.

[Aussie Digger]

Dum-dums are also ballistically inferior to FMJ rounds, meaning your accuracy will be less. Overall there is not a strong enough reason for them to be used. Current FMJ rounds do more than enough damage. Dum-Dums or hollowpoints would be "overkill" for military use. Thanks Victoria, I tried to explain the difference as best I could...

[Deltared075]

the "hollow point" bullet cannot penetrate amour right?

[Aussie Digger]

Hollowpoint rounds have a tendency to break up upon impact thus leading to additional wounds within the target. A hollowpoint should therefore have a lesser ability than FMJ rounds to penetrate armour, but they would retain some ability. I know several types of hollowpoint pistol rounds are capable of defeating body armour if that's what you're referring to.

[lamdacore]

thanks Aussie for that brief info

[Deltared075]

steel bullets better or the copper bullets?

Most rifles used copper bullets but some used steel bullets.
what the different?

[Aussie Digger]

Most military rifle ammunition these days consists of a steel penetrator (core) with a copper jacket around the penetrator. I don't know of any ammo that uses a total copper projectile. Cheers.

[gf0012-aust]

Most military rifle ammunition these days consists of a steel penetrator (core) with a copper jacket around the penetrator. I don't know of any ammo that uses a total copper projectile. Cheers.

mate, there's the good old nail gun for carpenters.. you can load that sucker up with copper nails. that would hurt. ;)

[Aussie Digger]

Indeed it would, there was a bloke airlifted to a hospital in Brisbane the other day who had been shot through the neck by his (former :eek ) mate with a nail gun... I figured that would upset your day quite badly...

[Awang se]

Steel core? I thought they use lead.

7.65mm is a powerfull and rather hard to tame bullet. That's why SLR in Malaysian Army can only fire in semi auto. They even replace the barrel with the heavy type and now they fulfill their role as support weapon instead.

[Aussie Digger]

SS109 (ie: NATO standard 5.56mm) rounds these days use a steel core. 7.62mm might still use lead, I'm not really sure.

[pezfez]

pak is getting the steyr-aug for the special forces for now, and has license to mass produce it at POF, slowly they will replace the g-3, but its gonna take a long (15 years, to start seeing it regularly) time considering the size of pak army and the training required.

and the type 95 is uses the nato round 5.56

i personally would stick with the ak-47 of ak-74, the nato concept of injuring does not apply in the pak-indo arena as an injured would never get the help from other soldiers or the med units

p.s has ne one seen the swedish ak-5, that thing is just plain slick

[Aussie Digger]

Never fear pezfez 5.56mm rounds kill just fine.

[Awang se]

i personally would stick with the ak-47 of ak-74, the nato concept of injuring does not apply in the pak-indo arena as an injured would never get the help from other soldiers or the med units


u might as well try it on yourself and see the result, if u survive. ;)

[Pathfinder-X]

pak is getting the steyr-aug for the special forces for now, and has license to mass produce it at POF, slowly they will replace the g-3, but its gonna take a long (15 years, to start seeing it regularly) time considering the size of pak army and the training required.

and the type 95 is uses the nato round 5.56

i personally would stick with the ak-47 of ak-74, the nato concept of injuring does not apply in the pak-indo arena as an injured would never get the help from other soldiers or the med units

p.s has ne one seen the swedish ak-5, that thing is just plain slick

Type 95 use 5.8mm rounds developed by china, not 5.56.

AK-47 and 74 is reliable, i'll give you that. But it's also got a long list of con's
-Effective range is only up to 300m
-Bad kick
-Hard to fix when it jams(although very rare)
-Heavy
-The curve on the magazine makes it hard for carrying
-Hard to adjust the sights
-Shell can eject up to 4 meters

[Salman78]

G3 still soilders on and if it really needs to be replaced then just get the lighter M-16. We dont need somthing more expensive and fancy. M-16 is light, proven, cheap and reliable.

[Deltared075]

Actually a very good move for China to change it ammo to 5.8mm, even if in war, the ammo capture by enemies cannot be use because different size!

[Aussie Digger]

I seriously doubt the Steyr AUG would be more expensive than the M-16, for no other reason that if it was, Australia never would have bought it... There's an old Australian Army saying that goes along the lines of, "remember son, that weapon you're relying on to save your life was chosen because it came in as the lowest bid..." :roll

[pezfez]

i would think that the aug was pretty expensive just by looking at it, plus we paid for the local production, and no one else was gonna sell ne rifles for tot to us

seriously, i need an answer, what do u guys think of the swedish ak5, a cross between ak47 and m4 and is reliable, and dead sexy, pak should've went for these

[Aussie Digger]

Australia too manufacture the Steyr under licence. It was evaluated against and preferred to the M16A2. Can't say much about the AK5. Never heard of it before. Cheers.

[Awang se]

Australia too manufacture the Steyr under licence. It was evaluated against and preferred to the M16A2. Can't say much about the AK5. Never heard of it before. Cheers.

Same as Malaysia.

[zamrijf50]

ak5 is the swedish version of the FABRIQUE NASIONAL FN FNC ASSAULT RIFLE/CARBINE...chambered for the 5.56mm cartridge. :roll

[highsea]

Since no one has mentioned this, I thought I might throw this up here. This is the new US infantry weapon. I understand that at least one batallion in Iraq will be getting this around the last quarter of this year for field trials. So far the reports I've seen have been very positive. Anyone here seen this in person yet?

XM8 Rifle
The new U.S. Assault Rifle, the XM8, is a modular weapon that can be fitted with three different barrels (9", 12.5", 20".)

The 9" barrel is for a very compact weapon for tank crews or commandoes. With the nine inch barrel and the butt stock retracted, the weapon has an overall length of 21 inches.

The 12.5" barrel is the standard, for use with the assault rifle or, with the butt stock retracted, it serves as a carbine. The 20 inch barrel is thicker as well and used for the light machine-gun version. There is also a lighter 20 inch barrel for use by snipers.

The assault rifle can be equipped with the new M320 40mm grenade launcher.

The U.S. Army is happy with the initial field testing of it's new M-8 (or XM-8) Assault Rifle. One of the major design features of the M-8 that makes it superior to the M-16 is the way it handles propellant gasses. The M-16 has these gasses going into the receiver, depositing layers of crud from propellant that did not completely burn. The M-8 keeps the propellant gasses out of the receiver and this reduces the cleaning time by about 70 percent. The troops appreciate this. More importantly, the reduced amount of crud in the receiver greatly increases reliability (far fewer rounds getting stuck.) In fact, the M-8 is designed to fire 15,000 rounds without cleaning or lubrication, even in a dirty (like a desert) environment. Troops are not allowed to let their weapons go like that, but this degree of reliability makes it less likely that rifles won't jam in a sandstorm or after getting dropped in the mud. The M-8 barrel and receiver is also of more sturdy construction, making it less likely that the user will get injured if there's something in the barrel when a round is fired. This is not unusual in combat. All you have to do is accidentally jam the barrel into the dirt while hitting the ground or otherwise avoiding enemy fire, and then have to return fire. On an M-16, this can often cause the rifle to, well, blow up in your face. This unfortunate event is much less likely with the M-8.

The M-8 comes with a battery powered sight that includes a red-dot, close-combat capability, plus infrared laser aimer and laser illuminator with a backup etched reticule. The sights on the M-8, similar to those which have been showing up on M-16s over the past decade, make it much easier to hit something. The M-8 is better designed for "ease of use" and support troops who don't handle their weapons frequently will find that they can more easily hit something with an M-8. Tests, using people who have not handled a rifle frequently, have demonstrated this.

Because the attachment points for rail mounted devices are built into the M-8, the sight can be factory zeroed. The M-16, because it has rail mounting hardware mounted on it, requires frequent re-zeroing in the field. This is a feature very much appreciated by the troops. The attachment points allow additional sighting devices to be quickly added to the weapon. A new 40mm, single shot grenade launcher (the M320) will be available for the M-8 and can be quickly installed by troops, without special tools. The M-8 is designed for easy left or right handed operation.

Testing will increase, as more M-8s are available, and the plan is that by early 2007, the first of over a million M-8s will begin distribution to all troops in active and reserve army units. One thing that may slow this down is the army research on the use of a new caliber (6.8mm). The new bullet has shown to have better accuracy and stopping power. While troops would be carrying less ammo with the larger round (25 rounds in the current 30 round magazine), they would require fewer shots to take down enemy troops. American troops today are much better trained in the use of their rifles than they were four decades ago. Automatic fire is not often used, with accurate, individual shots being the norm. The M-8 rifle, and possibly a new caliber, are a reflection of that.




http://www.webmutants.com/strategypage/XM8_Rifle_2.jpg

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/XM8_Rifle.asp

-CM

[gf0012-aust]

So far the reports I've seen have been very positive. Anyone here seen this in person yet?

-CM

I'm attending a Land Warfare Conference at the end of September. There are rumours that it will be there. They generally do have gear like this available - especially the future weapons like personal and squad weapons.

Unfortunately no cameras are allowed in the venue except official photograpgers, so I won't be able to shoot anything inside the conf.

If there are static displays in an outside area I'll see what I can do. But this year everything is inside a huge exhibition centre due to security reasons, so I doubt that external displays will be there.

[highsea]

GF, I first came across this when I was reading about the M-25 and the new computerized airburst rounds.

This looks like a very nice weapon, and the 6.8mm round (.270) should be excellent, especially in a sniper role. I read a report from a reporter that was in Afghanistan. He commented that (from a distance) he could identify the US troops from the Al-qaeda by the fire. We were firing single shots, and they were firing full auto.

The US is becoming an army of marksmen, so the larger caliber makes a lot of sense, as it doesn't have the distance limitations of the 5.56. I think the loss of ammo will be more than compensated for by the more effective larger caliber, especially at ranges of 300m +.

I think the sniper version is to be fitted with an advanced telescopic sight. I don't recall who manufactures it, but it is supposed to be range and wind compensating. Next generation sights are expected to have the rangefinder built in (laser, IIRC), and will also compensate for the angle of the rifle to the target. This should reduce the need for a spotter, and eliminate the math on more difficult shots.

All in all, it sounds like some pretty sporty stuff!

-CM

[Gremlin29]

I had a Roberts .270 some years ago and I will say this, that was a very very flat trajectory round. I used it to bag woodchucks, and 600 to 700 meter shots were the norm. It appears that the version with snail drum and bipod will be utilized as a squad weapon?

[highsea]

It appears that the version with snail drum and bipod will be utilized as a squad weapon?That's correct. BTW, the 6.8mm as I understand is different than the .270 Winchester (which is a necked down .30-06). The 6.8mm is based on a rimless 30-30 (necked down to .270), so it won't have quite the ballistics of the .270 Win, but should be a little more controllable in the SAW version (than the 7.62 NATO). Ballistically it would be closer to the 7.62 NATO (.308 Win.) in energy, but flatter shooting and should carry the energy downrange a little better due to the smaller caliber.

Looking at the pistol version of the M8, even in 5.56 it looks like a handfull!

I think my comment on the telescopic sights was incorrect though, IIRC the telescopic sight I was thinking about is for a new large caliber sniper system that is scheduled to replace or supplement the Barrett .50's and M2's. Part of the M25 program. The M8 sniper version will have the same integrated sight as the others, at least to start out. It will also be fitted with the bipod and a 20" barrel. There is also a snap-on 12 gauge shotgun for the M8 as well as the grenade launcher.

The other thing I mentioned in passing was the M25 system. The original planning was to have a single weapon, 25mm/5.56 in an over-under configuration. It proved to be too heavy and awkward, so it was split into two seperate weapons. The M25 is to have several different types of rounds, but the one I thought was interesting was the 25mm computerized airburst round. You dial in the distance to the target on the receiver, and if the bad guys are hunkered down behind a barricade, you send the round over their heads. When it gets to the programmed distance, it explodes, sending 600 pieces of shrapnel raining down. Great for shooting around corners, too!

-CM

[neel24neo]

The M25 is to have several different types of rounds, but the one I thought was interesting was the 25mm computerized airburst round. You dial in the distance to the target on the receiver, and if the bad guys are hunkered down behind a barricade, you send the round over their heads. When it gets to the programmed distance, it explodes, sending 600 pieces of shrapnel raining down. Great for shooting around corners, too!

computerised round???how much would each cost :?: now they would start making homing rounds i guess.nanotechnology is just arriving.
by the way,600 pieces of sharpnel u say,will that be enough.how much damage would it do?

[highsea]

Here's a little bit on the XM-25:

XM25 Air-burst Assault Weapon

A 25mm air-burst assault weapon that dramatically increases soldier lethality, survivability, standoff, and versatility

The XM25 provides the soldier with a 300-500 percent increase in hit probability to defeat point, area, and defilade targets out to 500 meters. The weapon features revolutionary high-explosive, air-burst ammunition that is integrated with the weapon’s multi-functional, all-environment, full-solution target acquisition/fire control system.

Target Acquisition/Fire Control System

The XM25 integrates ballistics computation in the full-solution Target Acquisition/Fire Control (TA/FC) system. The TA/FC system automatically communicates to the chambered 25mm round. Using advanced turns-count fuzing technology, the round is fired at the target and bursts precisely overhead.

The XM25 precisely delivers air-bursting munitions in all conditions, including MOUT and complex terrain. It is five times more lethal at the M203 maximum range and continues to provide lethality well beyond the M203’s maximum ability. The system is designed for optimum performance at 300 meters but will perform to 500 meters and beyond.

Lase – Aim – Fire:

The soldier places the aim point on target and activates the laser rangefinder
The fire control system provides an adjusted aim point
The soldier places the adjusted aim point on target and pulls the trigger

It includes five different types of ammunition:

Thermobaric
Flechette
Training
High Explosive Air Bursting
Non-Lethal

Combat Capabilities:

Semi-automatic high-explosive, air-bursting 25mm weapon
Full solution/integrated, compact, target acquisition/fire control system
Single round system accuracy
Ambidextrous, field strippable, and iron-sight backup

http://www.atk.com/ProductSheets/Category/SoldierSystems/2012709.htm


http://www.atk.com/ProductSheets/Category/Graphics/SoldierSystems/2012709-2.jpg

-CM

[Awang se]

Believe it or not, I never fire my M-4 in full auto after 4 years in the service though it is capable of doing so. After some rigorous training, i feel more comfortable in taking a well aim single shot. Of course, there's no one yet that can go far enough to force me to spray a bullets to them.

[neel24neo]

Believe it or not, I never fire my M-4 in full auto after 4 years in the service though it is capable of doing so. After some rigorous training, i feel more comfortable in taking a well aim single shot. Of course, there's no one yet that can go far enough to force me to spray a bullets to them.


but it depends on situations doesnt it.there may come times when you really need the fire volume of automatic fire.but yes aimed shots are better.i guess every army trains their soldiers to do just that.



i have a doubt here.if the xm-25 was separated from the rifle(m-8)wouldnnt it be better if they went for a larger caliber grenade launcher configuration employed as a squad weapon instead of induvidual weapon?

[Jason_kiwi]

By 2010 the NZ C9 MG's, Carl Guistafs and SAS weapons are due for replacement. I would love NZ to get the same standard smalla arms as USA.

[EnigmaNZ]

XM25 Air-burst Assault Weapon, ah yes, it was advertised as the gun that could shoot around corners. Lol. A bit disconcerting having a round airburst just past the corner of a building you are hiding behind. Brilliant idea though. I thought the US was moving to the P-90, first seen in Stargate :D I guess the point is, to take down a target with one shot and make sure he is out of the fight. The old policy of shooting to wound, to burden the enemy with wounded to take care of, doesn't work fighting those that are a danger even when wounded, and want to die to become martyrs. For those not familiar with the P-90, it uses a 5.7x28mm cartridge, and carries 50 rounds, and is very short bullpup design.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg13-e.htm

[Jason_kiwi]

What would replace the C9 mgs and carl guistafs?

[gf0012-aust]

I thought the US was moving to the P-90

AFAIK, the P90 failed every CONUS test it entered. There was some talk of the FBI using it for HRT work, but IIRC it lost out against the MP5 family.

[Alektas]

How about the new 6.5Grendel round?
It offers .308NATO ballistics in an ar-15 package. Firing a 6.5mm 120grain bullet with a high BC it retains a lot of energy downrange and because of its small size it woulf be ideal for a designated marksman rifle, SAW or assault rifle. It allows a practical range of more than 800m.

www.65grendel.com

[Pendekar]

AFAIK, the P90 failed every CONUS test it entered

remember the Stargate TV series? they change their MP5 from the first season to P90 in the second, now isn't that a backward track. :)

i'm under the impression that P90 was intended to be some sort of PDW. generaly, i understand the concept, but in detail, what really is the requirement for PDW? can MP5 be considered PDW?

[HateBreed]

PDW stands for personal defense weapon. a weapon that is compact for portability and is less likely to be used as an offensive weapon.
mp5 and p90 can be called pdws but they are designed for CQB or close quarter battle for antiterrorist forces. the advantagge p90 has on mp5 is that its 5.7 mm bullets can shoot straight thru 40 sheets of kevlar by sheer kinetic energy.

[vintec]

i have read a lot of complaints from us troops regarding the FMJ 5.56, they said unless they shot the enemy's head or spinal cord, it's impossible to drop the enemy in one or two shots. one example, a troop from stryker brigade in Mosul fired three shots into the insurgent's abdomen at point blank, the insurgent was still able to fight with the troop hand-to-hand. i've also watched a video clip where an insurgent still crouching with his RPG after being shot like 4 or 5 rounds, another 5 rounds made him dropped.

since no one mention the new HK416, i'll post some info of it

http://www.hkdefense.us/corporate/media/pdf/416revised4-5-05.pdf
it uses short-stroke piston, that means no carbon fouling in the chamber, it has better cooling effeciency just to name a few pros.

XM-8 will most probably scrapped due to the cost, looks like hk416 is a good candidate if the m4/m16 are to be replaced. most of the current accessories are able to use on hk416 as they have the same RIS and handguard. personally, i'm not a fan of m-8, looks like a damn toy to me :P but i know, choosing rifle by it's look is stupid. like what Sgt. Maj. Basil Plumley said in the movie "we were soldiers", "too much goddamn plastic in it!" his comment for the "new" m16

btw, since the hk416 is using piston, will that mean worse accuracy compare to the current m4/m16 that uses gas system (lets ASSUME that everything else is the same).

i'm really interested in small arms than tanks, jets etc... i have yet to find a good website that explains how every single piece of rifle internals works, mind sharing some websites? ta :D

[turin]

@HateBreed & Pendekar:

Actually the MP5 is a pretty classic submachine gun. There do exist some versions of the MP5, which can be considered PDWs, for example versions of the MP5/10 firing .224 BOZ rounds or the MP5K. A more comparable regular design by H&K would be the MP7. Also the purpose of these weapons is stated in their very names, its not some gear specifically designed for anti-terrorist operations, although they may be and in fact are widely used in that context. However the primary intention was to give troops, especially such personnel not primarily concerned with infantry duties, a more powerful means of defense and general combat capability. Thats why these weapons are called Personal Defense Weapons in the first place.
Therefore the german army fields the MP7 primarily with personnel such as the crews of tanks and other vehicles. The MP7 is more compact than the P-90 though, the latter is often seen with SOF or bodyguards (in fact, the personal security of german heads of state and other federal VIPs use this weapon on a regular basis). Still, that weapon was developed primarily for the purpose mentioned with the MP-7 as well.

For a comprehensive approach to the topic of PDW on the net, you may want to check out this site:
http://www.personaldefenceweapons.com/

As for Stargate...well its a sci-fi-show and the weapon looks cool. I guess that was the deciding factor.

[Cyclop]

The P-90 is introduced in the Austrian Jagdkommando (SOF) and intelligence service. Especially in urban areas, it seems to be an excellent weapon - small (short), powerful, 50 shoots, cardridges to the front, rails for lights etc. ...
The P-90 has a special ammunition capable of get trough Kevlar armour.
The P-90 is in fact replacing a number of older SMG.

[HateBreed]

actually the market is comparatively limited for toys like the p90 and mp2000. hk and its variant are and will remain the choice of mainstream specail ops forces in the foreseeable future. true the p90 is remarkable weapon to kill with, but the profieciency required to handle a bullpup design doesnt come easily. as is the case with AUG.there are a very few instances when i'd greatly prefer p90 over the hk mp5, although i can get the same result carrying either. i am not selling p90 short but its just that Fn seemed to make a market around itself and a very introverted at that. lets see how the CQB demands evolve with the changing global anti-terrorism needs, only then we can actually put these armor chewing toys at test.

[turin]

but the profieciency required to handle a bullpup design doesnt come easily. as is the case with AUG

For example?

[Pursuit Curve]

The G3 is about 45 years old. It was the std assault weapon for the Germans for a number of years, and is now relegated to the reserves. Its a pretty popular gun and was sold to over 45 countries (IIRC)

Std 7.62 NATO round.

The Stey is a completely diff weapon, lighter, 5.56 and is a Bullpup, so it's an ideal urban assault, tight area weapon. It's also easier to manage if the operater is in a vehicle.

Aussie Gunner has been a AuSteyr (Australian modified Steyr) user, so he should be able to give you an idea of how he thinks it handles

I've used FN-SLR's/(FAL's), different again, std NATO 7.62, long barrel, not the best for urban assault, but urban assault wasn't really a design consideration for it.

GF, I was in the MIddle East , Mid Eighties, I had some up close exposure to the Israeli Galil( 7.62 and then the 5.56 calibre models). The Israelis that I was in contact with gave some insight into the "perfect" combination of the Galil 5.56 and GPMG combination. I realise that the Galil is old hat now, but is Bullpup flavour of the decade or is there hard fact regarding its design virtues? The Israelis also showed me how they did a quick cleaning of their 5.56, a cigarette filter, and a blank cartridge, and bang, a clean barrel!

BTW, I am a die hard FN fan, but of course on the Canadian Prairies you sure could get the best out of it! It certainly does not have any advantage in an urban warfare situation, except for one thing, good old fashioned penetration!

[gf0012-aust]

BTW, I am a die hard FN fan, but of course on the Canadian Prairies you sure could get the best out of it! It certainly does not have any advantage in an urban warfare situation, except for one thing, good old fashioned penetration!

I love the old FN/SLR. The americans used to call it the "aussie elephant gun" for it's kick. I guess that happens when you dial it up. ;)

[Pursuit Curve]

GF, I liked the solid feel, and most of all the accuracy. I never handled a M14 but I still see a few of them around configured as sniper rifles, and the USA has unloaded M14's to the Estonian Security Forces.

But the one Assault Rifle that has always impressed me is the French Bull Pup, though I cannot recall its name?

[Pursuit Curve]

GF, I liked the solid feel, and most of all the accuracy. I never handled a M14 but I still see a few of them around configured as sniper rifles, and the USA has unloaded M14's to the Estonian Security Forces.

But the one Assault Rifle that has always impressed me is the French Bull Pup, though I cannot recall its name?

[gf0012-aust]

But the one Assault Rifle that has always impressed me is the French Bull Pup, though I cannot recall its name?

Isn't that the P90???

[Pursuit Curve]

GF, I was refering to the FAMAS G series, I have heard alot of great things about it.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the Famas the first in the line of Bullpups?

[HateBreed]

well, fast handling is an issue when switching from conventional rifles to bullpups, no matter how ergonomic the design is. things do require alot taking when rapid reloading is the issue, as newbie will fumble when pointing the bullpup rifle in the air and raising it to level with the magazine well. Also sighting with iron sights off the seemingly short receiver will look like bringing the front sight closer and pushing the target farther. special forces will have some problem at first when flying thru the windows SAS style in room clearing scenarios.........

[HateBreed]

not really, there were were a few other bullpup in service before famas joined the french army, i think AUG had made it out of the factory and into the field by then.

[HateBreed]

he is right, gf , P90 is not french but belgium.