Special forces entry?

[DRUB]

This is regarding entry into the various special forces around the world. Its widely known that most militaries quote themelves as having the toughest entry requirements for special forces, but, is there any particular special force group that is particularly different?

am i making sense?

[gf0012-aust]

This is regarding entry into the various special forces around the world. Its widely known that most militaries quote themelves as having the toughest entry requirements for special forces, but, is there any particular special force group that is particularly different?

am i making sense?

There is a degree of commonality between the selection processes for a number of spec services. eg UK SAS, SBS, Aust SASr, NZ SAS, Delta etc, but to some extent the UK SAS model acts as the basis for a lot of western/NATO selection processes.

Where there are "deviations" are in the specialist areas such as the US SEALs, Italian ComSub's etc....

What were you trying to ascertain?

[DRUB]

This is regarding entry into the various special forces around the world. Its widely known that most militaries quote themelves as having the toughest entry requirements for special forces, but, is there any particular special force group that is particularly different?

am i making sense?

There is a degree of commonality between the selection processes for a number of spec services. eg UK SAS, SBS, Aust SASr, NZ SAS, Delta etc, but to some extent the UK SAS model acts as the basis for a lot of western/NATO selection processes.

Where there are "deviations" are in the specialist areas such as the US SEALs, Italian ComSub's etc....

What were you trying to ascertain?

I was mainly trying to ascertain the different levels of training and selection standards of the special forces. Specifically, would it be easier to get into - provided that all other factors are standard - the special forces of a poorer nation than a richer one.

[gf0012-aust]

Not sure, each nations military would have a different approach. eg Russia wasn't exactly brimming with wealth, but it made sure that its specialists were looked after.

There are subtle differences involved. Eg western also undertake intense psycho profiling to make sure that operaters "fit" into the profile. Australian specwarfare operaters have a higher average age as the emphasis is on someone who is more mature in approach.

eg, the ave age for Aust SASr is v low 30's, whereas some of the US teams are low-mid 20's.

The US denies their forces of nothing, so they get to see and play with all the right gear. OTOH New Zealands SAS does not get as much later model gear as the Australians, Fijian specwarfare troops are in a worse situation, but they have a clear capability.

I'm not sure what the profiling is for Pakistan and India so I can't comment.

As another example Polands GROM have a very young (historical) specwarfare cadre, but they already have a very good reputation for capability. Poland is certainly not wealthy, and IIRC GROM go through a similar recruitment process to UK SAS.

Most nations treat their specwarries as a critical "elite" so they spend money on them more than on other troop units.

[Winter]

I was mainly trying to ascertain the different levels of training and selection standards of the special forces. Specifically, would it be easier to get into - provided that all other factors are standard - the special forces of a poorer nation than a richer one.

What an interesting question. One that is quite hard to answer, too...Personally I would hazard no:

I would imagine difficulty of special forces selection would not in fact, be directly influenced by the economic status or national assets and bank reserves. Just think about it: (No offence here) As an example, Taiwanese selection for their frogmen could quite easily be on a higher level of standards than that of say, the French GIGN, even. Who knows? The point is their economies are yet vastly different...

But then that raises the question, how would you define the standards? The commando force of country x is wholly ski-qualified unlike nation y, however it's mobility rate is lower (if you could acquire this information). Which special forces unit has the higher operating standards? There are also other factors involved. What of countries with more than one special operations unit? How would you define the national level then? Calaculate the 'mean' standard between Delta Force and a spec-ops capable MEU?

But back to the basis of your question...I would be surprised in the extreme if somehow, a list of world nations could be acquired displaying specops operating standards and difficulty of selection, and that they are directly ranked by GDP $ real terms, thus demonstrating a relationship. I would doubt this, for there would be too many exceptions.

[Aussie Digger]

Well DRUB, I don't know the answer to your question about different Specwarops units, but I can answer about Australia's special forces and that may provide some insight. Firstly the ADF maintains the Special Operations Command. The operational units of this command comprises the Special Air Service Regiment (SASR), located in Perth Western Australia. The 4th Battalion Royal Australia Regiment (Commando) (4RAR Commando). The 1 Commando Regiment and the Incident Response Regiment. Each special forces unit each has a supporting Signals Squadron as well, but they don't come under the command of the Special Operations Command. To become a special forces operator in Australia you have to be infantry qualified. Once you have achieved that yopu can undertake the Special forces entry test, (otherwise known as the Barrier test.) When undertaking this test you must undertake a series of mechanical aptitude testing, navigation tests, and sit before a board interview. This is generally conducted by serving special forces officers, senior NCO's and a psychiatrist. After gettting through these you undertake the basic fitness tests. These start off with a minimum of 60 pushups, 100 situps and 10 chinups. You must also undertake a 2.4klm run wearing webbing (load carrying gear) weighing no less than 7 kilograms which must be completed in full uniform in less than 11 minutes. You must also complete a 15kilometre "route march" in less than 2hrs and 40 minutes carrying a full pack and webbing and a rifle all of which must weigh no less than 28 Kilograms. Finall6y you have a swimming test of 400metres in less than 18 minutes and 2 minutes of treading water whilst wearinng full uniform. All of these physical tests are conducted in the same day and basically serve to weed out those who won't make the grade. Once you have passed the initial testing you must undertake the Special Forces Group selection course which lasts for 3 days. During this course further rigorous physical tests are conducted including: Run 3.2 km in under 16 minutes with webbing and rifle (12kg). A 20 km route march with a 20 kg pack in under 3h:15min. A Climb up and down a 6m rope with webbing and rifle (12kg) twice. Swim 400m in 20 minutes and tread water for 2 minutes. Rope climbing exercises. Also conducted are numerous exercises etc designed to place mental and physical stresses upon the applicants. Successful completion of this course enable's employment in either 1 Commando Regiment (reserve unit) or 4RAR Commando (full time). If you wish to apply for the SASR, a further application is required followed by a 3 week selection course in Western Australia. There are very few details available about this course however it is reputed as being one of the toughest of these type of courses in the world with a less than 10% successful pass rate. The applicants who get through this are obviously world class operaters given the Australian SASR's excellent performance on recent operations. Hope this is of some help, www.specialoperations.com can also provde a wealth of knowledge about world special forces units. Cheers.

[DRUB]

Thanks for the response guys, much appreciated :). I also understand that a direct relationship between entry/standards and a nations economy is very slim. However, i believe, it may give some form of indication on how much importance a gvt places on its military.

:)

[Winter]

Thanks for the response guys, much appreciated :). I also understand that a direct relationship between entry/standards and a nations economy is very slim. However, i believe, it may give some form of indication on how much importance a gvt places on its military.

:)

Well now, that depends on the government in power and their policies... :roll

[gf0012-aust]

DRUB, there is a new ozmag out called CONTACT, published by an ex army bloke, so its worth getting.

Of interest to you is an article on 4 RAR (Commando). Discusses training, selection issues etc..

[DRUB]

DRUB, there is a new ozmag out called CONTACT, published by an ex army bloke, so its worth getting.

Of interest to you is an article on 4 RAR (Commando). Discusses training, selection issues etc..

cheers

[adsH]

"I'm not sure what the profiling is for Pakistan and India so I can't comment"

appart from the UK SAS the only other special service group i know off is teh SSG or the PAK ARMY heres a picture of them

Litle is known about british SAS(i think thats what i heard)i guess but heres a pic of them which apears to be a gas mask hazard suite the pic is edited i have no idea why looks like they altered it or could be an impression but u get the picture

http://www.usna.edu/combat/images/BritishSAS.gif
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/PakArmy/ssg.html
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Support%20Pics/SSG_03.jpg

[Aussie Digger]

adsh, a lot is now known about the British SAS. Far more than they would like actually. Walk into any bookshop and you'll find just about a whole section of books on the "True History of the SAS" etc etc...

[adsH]

thats true i actually turned onn the tele and found out that they had programe on discovery about SAS WARfare and training

[Aussie Digger]

There's a lot of hype about the SAS (and the SASR here in Australia) these days, but most of it is what is spoon fed to media organisations. The media are really only interested in the flashy parts of the Special forces, ie: the men dressed in black, carrying sub-machine guns and busting in doors etc. The "real" work they do, never gets reported and even Andy McNAB and Chris RYAN's "controversial" books only ever gave a broad outline of past SAS operations. They would never be allowed to describe the operations in intimate detail, with exact specifics, such as SAS patrol routines, exact tactical area of operations, timings, codes, communication equipment details, exact weapons and other equipment capabilities etc. About the most you read is that they carry "satellite phones" and TACBE's and carry M16/M203's etc. This tells you nothing of the equipment's or the troops actual capabilities though and is simply the sorts of information that can be obtained by doing a Google search or whatever. Again the training things about "selection" are generally fairly well known, such as the "fan dance" etc that is conducted in the Black Mountains in Wales during the initial 4 week SAS Selection course. What is not well known is what happens after this. There's no real problem with people knowing about the initial selection course because all it does is select people who are mentally very tough, physically very fit and appear to have the right sort of attitude and perhaps aptitude to "fit in". The real training starts after this and for obvious reason is a closely guarded secret. Cheers.

[adsH]

Hey i have heard you need a four year minimum problem free record to be even considered for the SAS,i saw many programes about there operations like the the Iranian Embasy seige in london that was like pure skill and tactic and they did mention they had some sub machine guns ah!!! yeah the Mp-50(odd whay german) or might of been 40 either would be nice weapns i know they get the best they carry Sat nav with them a sat phone for pick ups i think thats about it, oh yeah rite they never show faces on tv of active SAS for some odd reason that leads me to believe that they must work very close to the Mi5 and Mi6 which is logical. but i still think the SWAT team even tho low police should be acknowledged for there skill. what i have heard about them is that they train FBI and CIA agents with there skills that they gained from being in the Military like X NAVY SEALS OR THE MARINES.

[Aussie Digger]

A lot of ex-military personnel move into the training field after they leave their respective service, particularly special forces types. It's unfortunate that the types of training you receive in "combat arms" of the military don't really have any use outside of the military. Some people get quite bitter about that and seem to think that a few years in the army should entitle them to anything they would like in life. When they leave the military is when real life starts to hit them... I personally know ex-ADF servicemen and ex- Australian Police (mostly former Special Operations Group memebers) who are currently in Iraq earning exhorbitant sums of money for their work as Security/Body Guards etc. They are welcome to it as far as I'm concerned. You wouldn't get me there short of a military deployment and I'm no longer in the military, though it's nice to see some members of my old unit in Iraq these days...

[gf0012-aust]

A lot of ex-military personnel move into the training field after they leave their respective service, particularly special forces types. It's unfortunate that the types of training you receive in "combat arms" of the military don't really have any use outside of the military. Some people get quite bitter about that and seem to think that a few years in the army should entitle them to anything they would like in life. When they leave the military is when real life starts to hit them... I personally know ex-ADF servicemen and ex- Australian Police (mostly former Special Operations Group memebers) who are currently in Iraq earning exhorbitant sums of money for their work as Security/Body Guards etc. They are welcome to it as far as I'm concerned. You wouldn't get me there short of a military deployment and I'm no longer in the military, though it's nice to see some members of my old unit in Iraq these days...

There's huge money involved at the moment. I was trying to put together a support team for afghanistan for some private contractors. The charge out rates were USD $2000 per day for team members, USD $3500-4000 per day for the team leader.

In the end the project sponsor gave up as the civilians weren't prepared to go.

To give you an idea of the costs: it was approx USD $80k per day

[Aussie Digger]

Hang on, $2K per day, let me think about that...

[gf0012-aust]

I'm looking for people who have had boarding party experience later on this year. So if you know anyone...

It's an evolving contract, so details are furry.

But, they need sea legs, have done boarding at speed and the usual things that come with that. Money is not as good, probably $500 AUS pp.pd.

[Aussie Digger]

Unfotunately the only people I know in that line of work, "are still in that line of work"... A friend of mine has just completed the first few stages of the Special Forces direct recruiting scheme and will be a full time member of 4RAR soon, so I might make some contacts there. Other than that the only other people I know who might be interested in that sort of work have recently started work as air-marshalls and seem to be enjoying that, so I'll let you know if anything comes up...

[Paxter]

every nation has their own way of making their special forces i found one on PASKAL

Paskal : Training
As a Special Forces unit, Paskal's personnel must be mentally and physically agile. Every new trainees are required to undergo 3 months of basic commando training at RMN Lumut Naval Base and then, they will be sent to SWTC (Special Warfare Training Centre), Sungai Udang to experience basic parachuting and diving. Those who passed the grueling training process, will continue to withstand the Advanced First Class training. Paskal's personnel are given specialize courses in several fields such as medical, communications, explosives and electrical / mechanical repairing. They are also required to pass a physical test once for every three months. Among the test conducted:

1)7.8km running in 24 minutes (below 24 years of age)
2)1.5km swimming not more than 25 minutes (in swimming pool)
3)6.4km sea swimming with full combat load in under 120 minutes
4)Free style swimming for 1.5km under 31 minutes

Swimming with hands and feet tighten together for about 75m
Diving without breathing apparatus for about 50m in depth
Paskal is strongly influenced by the tactics and organization of British Special Boat Section (SBS). Paskal usually trains with GGK as well as US Navy's SEAL, Indonesian Navy's KOPASKA and, of course - SBS. One of the 'problems' that Paskal is facing right now are the very low passing rate of it's trainees. This is particularly because the selection process is so tough, that the passing rate was supposedly 5 - 10% only. As an example, from 100 personnel who undergo the basic commando training, only about 10 of them are qualified and selected to join Paskal.

Paskal : Roles
One of Paskal's roles is to launch offensive operations independently via sea, land and air in enemy controlled waters. Paskal were trained to conduct maritime operations such as anti-pirating, anti-ship / oil rigs hijacking.
The security of 30+ oil rigs in Malaysian waters are under the control and responsibility of Paskal. Until now, Paskal had been able to conduct training in almost all of those oil rigs. A consortium of oil company may also support Paskal's operation by contributing financial assistance in buying new weapons and equipment. This has made Paskal as the most sophisticated and well-equipped SOF unit in Malaysia.

The Paskal's missions also consist of beachhead / deep penetrations reconnaissance, demolition and sabotage, but their skills and activity extend beyond that. Paskal can be deploy in securing landingsites for Army's amphibious attacks, attacking top priority ships in enemy harbours, Counter-Terrorist missions (CT) and countermine operations.

Paskal's personnel were also located in man-made offshore stations particularly in Layang-Layang atoll as well as in several RMN's ships. Like other Special Forces units, Paskal requires special type of weapons and equipments such as submachineguns and ammunition that is specifically designed for underwater combat. Another equipment that has been used by Paskal is subskimmer, a high-speed inflatable / collapsible craft that can be converted into to a small 'submarine'. Its crew usually use close-circuit breathing apparatus while remaining in underwater. Subskimmer is the best way to move around without being detected.


BTW they have excess to the most advance weapons around for special forces due to the money they get from oil and gas corp.

[adsH]

Almost all SF are well trained and well equipped and well funded !

[DRUB]

1)7.8km running in 24 minutes (below 24 years of age)


Whoa, now that is ridiculously fast. My best time would be somewhere in the mid 30's, but 24 minutes, whoa

[Aussie Digger]

Are you sure about the 7.8k's in under 24 minutes? Slightly better than 3 minute k's seems like a bit of overkill to me. Endurance and speed is important, but you'd need to train to almost Olympic standards of running to achieve this. Whilst in the army, the best time I ever achieved on the 2.4klm run the Australian Army uses as it's basic fitness assessment was 8.30 minutes flat. At that pace (presuming I could keep it up!!!) I would only cover 6.9 kilometers over 24 minutes. I would never be able to do 7.8k's in 24 minutes. The 8.30 minute run was basically a flat out sprint for me and with the level of fitness I had then I would have easily met the basic Australian Special Forces fitness standards. As such, I think the timed run is a bit of an exaggeration.

[Paxter]

that isnt that bad if you consider the basic commando training where you basicly are in loin cloth and a commando knife and getting your ass kick out of the heli into the rainforest and you got to live there for 2 weeks and come out alive if you do you are a commando in the malaysian army.



Here is an url on paskal some fan did it check out the pic section nice SAS pics too

http://satu.pelayanweb.com/~rl03/paskal/

[Paxter]

are you mad SAS is like the most known spec ops units on earth, the british are the fathers of modern commando tactics check out during WW2 what they did, they made sure the nazi could not build the atomic bomb by blowing up all those heavy water factories,

[gf0012-aust]

are you mad SAS is like the most known spec ops units on earth, the british are the fathers of modern commando tactics check out during WW2 what they did, they made sure the nazi could not build the atomic bomb by blowing up all those heavy water factories,

There's an argument that would support that the SAS are the grand daddies of all modern special forces.

BUT, the first unit that defined special forces roles and definitely has the title for being the foundation for all special forces concepts is Rogers Rangers from the 18th Century. Some of the tactics as defined by Rogers in the 18th Century are still used conceptually 250 years later.

[Soldier]

Just because Rogers Rangers tactics are still used does not make them the best in the world. They may be been in 19th century. For now it is SAS of British, which rules with the cleanest record.

[gf0012-aust]

Just because Rogers Rangers tactics are still used does not make them the best in the world. They may be been in 19th century. For now it is SAS of British, which rules with the cleanest record.

Soldier, read my post in relation to the prev thread. I'm not saying that Rogers were the best in the world. The response was in context to the british are the fathers of modern commando tactics The above statement is palpably incorrect.

The SAS are for me the benchmark, and I have seen a few other special forces operaters at "play."

[Soldier]

Yep you are right GF.... I did not read it properly before commenting... Sorry about that!!!

Soldier, read my post in relation to the prev thread. I'm not saying that Rogers were the best in the world. The response was in context to the british are the fathers of modern commando tactics The above statement is palpably incorrect.

The SAS are for me the benchmark, and I have seen a few other special forces operaters at "play."

[adsH]

are you mad SAS is like the most known spec ops units on earth, the british are the fathers of modern commando tactics check out during WW2 what they did, they made sure the nazi could not build the atomic bomb by blowing up all those heavy water factories,

well known, but not much about there ops is known other than wht is released we know they go through some of the most back breaking and Syc training and assemment and as some people said before you need to have a clean service record with realy high levels of fitness but what they realy do out there and where they are is not known. :roll

[Gremlin29]

Generally selectee's for a Spec Ops organization will be screened for well above average intelligence, as well as being physically fit well beyond the "standards" of their parent military orgainization. Being tough a good spec ops operator does not make, it's a combination of intelligence, toughness (inestinal fortitude), skills and equipment. I'm not familiar enough with every spec ops community to pass judgement on them all but I would put my money on the SAS as being the best of the best. They are intelligent and tough individuals, they have superb training, equipment and all of their operators have "real world" experience the last of which is a real boon to any spec ops community. I suspect that the SAS, and the United States spec ops communities will see a vast improvement over the next 10 years because of the diverse real world experience the operators and the feeder organizations have been getting this past few years.