Israel Works on Missiles for India

[suleman]

By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI


Israel has begun developing a missile for India that will have a range of up to 300 kilometers.

Indian Army officials here on Feb. 9 confirmed that the service’s specifications for two long-range artillery (LORA) missiles were submitted to scientists at Lod-based Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI). They said the Army needs 36 India-specific LORA systems.

The India-specific missiles would represent an extended-range version of the LORA, initially developed by IAI. Current versions of the solid-fuel missile now in testing carry a 570-kilogram warhead less than 200 kilometers.



Israeli sources say Indian specifications for a longer-range version would require significant reductions in warhead size to comply with the physical properties of the missile itself, as well as international restrictions governing the transfer or sale of missiles capable of delivering a 500-kilogram payload more than 300 kilometers.

“I do not rule out the possibility of sale and even co-production of [the LORA] missile,” Moshe Keret, IAI’s president and chief executive, said Feb. 7 during the Defexpo 2004 trade show here. “This program is not only important for us, it is a crucial element of IAI’s relationship with India.”

Army artillery officials here said Feb. 9 that a high-level team from the Artillery Directorate went to Israel in November to witness the live-fire demonstration of the LORA missile system.The Army also will fund the development of the India-specific prototype, the Army officials said. They would not disclose financial details.

The Army will conduct up to 10 trials of the solid-fueled LORA missiles before placing a bulk order with IAI, the Artillery Directorate officials said. The Army last year began its evaluation of the existing LORA missile system and the Russian Iskander-E missile system. Pursuit of the Iskander has been abandoned by the Army in favor of the LORA.

The Army currently has the indigenous Prithvi missile in its inventory. It has a range of up to 150 kilometers and is capable of carrying a nuclear warhead. The Army officials confirmed that the India-specific LORA also would have that capability.

The Army officials noted that the Prithvi missile is cumbersome to transport because of its liquid fuel, and that they preferred to deploy a solid-fueled missile. This is also to defend against solid-fueled missiles equipping forces in Pakistan.

The Army officials said the Defence Ministry will follow service recommendations to delay procuring the Smerch multibarrel rocket launch system due to concerns with support from Russia during the system’s life cycle.


Barbara Opall-Rome contributed to this report from Tel Aviv

link (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2630561&C=mideast)

[mukul]

India conducted mnay test of soild fuel Prithvi missiles , now only soild version of this missiles handed to army.

[Panzer]

India conducted mnay test of soild fuel Prithvi missiles , now only soild version of this missiles handed to army.

Source ??

[gf0012-aust]

India conducted mnay test of soild fuel Prithvi missiles , now only soild version of this missiles handed to army.

The Privthi is liquid only - it was based on the US Scout missile. To re-engine the Privthi to use solid fuel packs would be an expensive and somewhat debatable exercise in futility - especially when other opportunities are possible.

Redesigning an SRBM from liquid to solids is highly questionable when the rest of Indias ballistic missile ORBAT covers range overlaps.

However, if you have links confirming a conversion to solid fuels it would be good to see them posted.

[mukul]

well India updated its prethiv missiles and now made it soild fuel version also .

please update your knowledge , I don;t like to post link to give proof every time

http://www.indianembassy.org/i_digest/2004/jan_31/prithvi.htm

http://in.news.yahoo.com/040123/43/2b3hu.html

[mysterious]

To this day, I've never believed India developed its ballistic missiles and N-technology on its own. Its just clean propaganda! Isreal (indirectly U.S.) and Russia all helped India do all this stuff and quite a lot sensible people know it!

[Red aRRow]

I don;t like to post link to give proof every time

Sorry but that's how it is on message boards.

[mukul]

To this day, I've never believed India developed its ballistic missiles and N-technology on its own. Its just clean propaganda! Isreal (indirectly U.S.) and Russia all helped India do all this stuff and quite a lot sensible people know it!

yea thats why ot take more then 20 years to develop , then pak in 5 years straight ...

[Roger Smith]

To this day, I've never believed India developed its ballistic missiles and N-technology on its own. Its just clean propaganda! Isreal (indirectly U.S.) and Russia all helped India do all this stuff and quite a lot sensible people know it!

yea thats why ot take more then 20 years to develop , then pak in 5 years straight ...

I believe eventually all missiles and WMD should be banned. :)

Libya and Iran are the example for foregoing their nuclear arsenal/knowhow/technology. I think they should be commended on their brave move for betterment of mankind.

[mysterious]

lol...thats what YOU, the Indian public is made to believe that it took 20 yrs to make missiles themselves! But its known fact that Israel and Russia helped 'em. Even today, Russia provides a LOT of nuclear fuel to india which India is unable to make enough to meet its needs. And yea mukul, as said; u need to prove stuff ALL the time here! No one's here to hear ur dreamz n self valued judgments

[gf0012-aust]

well India updated its prethiv missiles and now made it soild fuel version also .

please update your knowledge , I don;t like to post link to give proof every time

http://www.indianembassy.org/i_digest/2004/jan_31/prithvi.htm

http://in.news.yahoo.com/040123/43/2b3hu.html

Prithvi is propelled by a mix of solid and liquid fuels.


Note the sentence in your quoted article - it is not solely a solid fuel booster, if you do your research you will find that the missile is a liquid primary. the solid portion in all likelihood is an impeller stage.

Your reference to Privthi being a solid fuel was misleading.

If you look at the US Scout you will see distinct similarities - which should be of no surprise as it is the legacy system

BTW the second article is the journos hack of the embassy release - its not a supporting ref as such.

Don't take offence when people ask you to provide evidence. There are some people in here who on the flush of patriotic enthusiasm will make things up to support sometimes nonsensical claims - that helps no one and can actually destroy your credibility as a respondent for future threads.

It is for your benefit as well as everyone else.

please update your knowledge , I don;t like to post link to give proof every time

I'll try not to be offended by this and assume that you have unfortunately compromised the tone and thrust of your response by delivering a short statement. - But you MUST post a link to support claims - otherwise its an opinion and should be declared as such (eg IMHO).

Finally - my official job requires me to stay up to date with issues, if I have a doubt then I make it clear in my posts - I'm not in the habit of saying things to be famous on here - I'll say them usually because I have had some involvement in contracts or projects. - It would pay to remember that in future. There are numerous other people in here with similar occupational qualifications.

A challenge to a response is not a challenge to your country - its a challenge to accuracy.

This is not a competition. If others treat it as such, then argue the point calmly, rationally and logically. Nothing else will win you favours.

[mysterious]

[Mod edit: You're just begging to get banned again huh??]

[Winter]

lol...thats what YOU, the Indian public is made to believe that it took 20 yrs to make missiles themselves! But its known fact that Israel and Russia helped 'em. Even today, Russia provides a LOT of nuclear fuel to india which India is unable to make enough to meet its needs. And yea mukul, as said; u need to prove stuff ALL the time here! No one's here to hear ur dreamz n self valued judgments

mysterious, please, so what? You cannot judge an entire nation on it's energy imports...Show a little backbone.

[mysterious]

lol...thats what YOU, the Indian public is made to believe that it took 20 yrs to make missiles themselves! But its known fact that Israel and Russia helped 'em. Even today, Russia provides a LOT of nuclear fuel to india which India is unable to make enough to meet its needs. And yea mukul, as said; u need to prove stuff ALL the time here! No one's here to hear ur dreamz n self valued judgments

mysterious, please, so what? You cannot judge a entire nation on it's energy imports! Show a little backbone.

lol. Did I hurt u or something Winter (when u were young)? Why u after me man? :cop hahhahaha looks like u're mukul's bro :P dont worry. All my gathered articles and material have sorta gotten mixed up here so I'm separating relevant from the irrelevant. I'll give u ur due dose in time with evidence. so relax and keep to the topic, not me!

[Winter]

lol...thats what YOU, the Indian public is made to believe that it took 20 yrs to make missiles themselves! But its known fact that Israel and Russia helped 'em. Even today, Russia provides a LOT of nuclear fuel to india which India is unable to make enough to meet its needs. And yea mukul, as said; u need to prove stuff ALL the time here! No one's here to hear ur dreamz n self valued judgments

mysterious, please, so what? You cannot judge a entire nation on it's energy imports! Show a little backbone.

lol. Did I hurt u or something Winter (when u were young)? Why u after me man? :cop hahhahaha looks like u're mukul's bro :P dont worry. All my gathered articles and material have sorta gotten mixed up here so I'm separating relevant from the irrelevant. I'll give u ur due dose in time with evidence. so relax and keep to the topic, not me!
I'm not defending anyone, mysterious. I just think you're out of line...But that is for a Mod to decide, I suppose.

[mysterious]

yeah it sure is.

[gf0012-aust]

Some of you really need to calm down, I go away for 8 hours and come back to find that people are in orbit again.

Read the rules really carefully and slowly again.

Anyone who maligns an individual and/or a country outside of the spirit of a mature debate will get their posts deleted from now on if I am online.

This will apply to anyone apart from those who are new and have not been warned by another mod, or by the web.

Some of you have had warnings already, and from my perspective don't have the privilege anymore of leniency anymore.

You must post links - whether you like it or not. READ the rules.

You must declare if information is an opinion if not supported by links

If someone provides links - it is irrelevant whether you disagree with the information or not - this is an electronic house of debate and communication - so argue with rational responses

I am sick of dealing with people who do not have the capacity to keep their emotions in check. Going off the rails does nothing to support your argument and only provides more fuel to fires that are stoked by errant patriotism.

[WebMaster]

Mysterious, you need to stop acting like a kid and stop passing out useless comments that have nothing to do with the topic. You don't have to reply to every single thing that someone says. When someone does say something in regards to rules, its important you take the advice and leave it alone not argue over it. We don't want to go in the chamber again. ;)

[mysterious]

oh man! I thought I was off ur notorious list man! lol dont worry I'm trying hard to abide by the rules but sometimes I get carried away. and come on! I'm not as old n experienced as u guyz. Gimme time to correct ma self peepz. :(

[Indus]

To this day, I've never believed India developed its ballistic missiles and N-technology on its own. Its just clean propaganda! Isreal (indirectly U.S.) and Russia all helped India do all this stuff and quite a lot sensible people know it!

mysterious, Well you can think whatever you want to, problem is that you cant back any of it up.. no one is saying that this latest Israeli missile is Indian indigenous.. Israeli missile technology is obviously superior.. India is just trying to diversify its arsenal..

Maybe before you talk about other countries programs, you should be reminded that almost entire Pakistani nuclear arsenal are Chinese and North Korean missiles that were renamed and/or modified..

i.e.: entire Shaheen series "are imports from China by the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC)".. these are simply M-11 missiles that were renamed to the farsi word for hawk - Shaheen.
---> http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/pakistan/missile/

Ghauri Series:
"More recently, the A.Q. Khan Research Laboratories, which is also responsible for Pakistan's uranium bomb program, has imported and tested the North Korean Nodong missile under the name Ghauri.
---> http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/pakistan/missile/

So basically everything in Pak arsenal besides maybe the Hatf series, is imported..

[Soldier]

Come on Guys, cool off.... Let Indian missile be Israeli's or Russians, Let Pakistani Missiles be NKorean or Chinese...

The truth is both of em kill....right? So chill off... :smokingc:

[mysterious]

To this day, I've never believed India developed its ballistic missiles and N-technology on its own. Its just clean propaganda! Isreal (indirectly U.S.) and Russia all helped India do all this stuff and quite a lot sensible people know it!

mysterious, Well you can think whatever you want to, problem is that you cant back any of it up.. no one is saying that this latest Israeli missile is Indian indigenous.. Israeli missile technology is obviously superior.. India is just trying to diversify its arsenal..

Maybe before you talk about other countries programs, you should be reminded that almost entire Pakistani nuclear arsenal are Chinese and North Korean missiles that were renamed and/or modified..

i.e.: entire Shaheen series "are imports from China by the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC)".. these are simply M-11 missiles that were renamed to the farsi word for hawk - Shaheen.
---> http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/pakistan/missile/

Ghauri Series:
"More recently, the A.Q. Khan Research Laboratories, which is also responsible for Pakistan's uranium bomb program, has imported and tested the North Korean Nodong missile under the name Ghauri.
---> http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/pakistan/missile/

So basically everything in Pak arsenal besides maybe the Hatf series, is imported..


did I say they werent? :smokingc: lol...why r u so hyped up? just because I said something abt Indian stuff being israeli n russian? lol chill man! its a known fact :cop

[gf0012-aust]

To this day, I've never believed India developed its ballistic missiles and N-technology on its own. Its just clean propaganda! Isreal (indirectly U.S.) and Russia all helped India do all this stuff and quite a lot sensible people know it!

India certainly has an indigenous ability to build ballistic missiles. As for nuke development, it's a bit of a stretch to say that they couldn't do it themselves either.

It's an unhelpful comment, but seeing your thread was posted before your last warning, I assume that you won't be delivering such "pearlers" in future. :)

[Indus]

did I say they werent? :smokingc: lol...why r u so hyped up? just because I said something abt Indian stuff being israeli n russian? lol chill man! its a known fact :cop

Not hyped up, just wanted to correct your exaggerations. Agni I, II, III are indigenous.. prithivi series may be based on other designs, but it most certainly is not imported and renamed, unlike Pakistani missiles.. As far as nuclear development, surely that involved substantial Russian assistance..

This new Israeli missile should definitely provide a boost for India's short-range capabilities.. The Prithvi is great in terms of payload/wt ratio.. for such a short-range (250km) missile, it packs quite a punch.. 1000kg payload.., but im not sure how great the accuracy is.

[/quote]

[gf0012-aust]

:cop :cop No more biting thanks gents, back to the discussion on technical issues. :cop :cop

[mukul]

Prithiv has 10 m of CAP

Gf now pRithiv is also soild fuel...their its written it is soild /liquid mix and Prithiv is one stage missile and use only one type od fuel and not two type on same missile......

[gf0012-aust]

Prithiv has 10 m of CAP

Gf now pRithiv is also soild fuel...their its written it is soild /liquid mix and Prithiv is one stage missile and use only one type od fuel and not two type on same missile......

Mukul, can you show me some links please? All my databases show Privthi as being a combination propellant.

[Faisal_Masud]

All the publications made by FAS are based on the conconcted stories published by US newspapers.So don't believe on these stupid things published by FAS.

[gf0012-aust]

All the publications made by FAS are based on the conconcted stories published by US newspapers.So don't believe on these stupid things published by FAS.

If you are responding to a poster then make sure they know who it is you are responding to.

For the record, I don't use FAS or Global Security etc as they are data scrapers. However, in their defence, they don't use info just from US sources either, they access all available info including countries of origin.

Don't generalise, it's a dangerous past-time and will lead to unwanted misunderstandings and conflict on here.

If people use FAS etc then it is fine, they have made an attempt. Although some data may be inaccurate, it is not the posters fault as they post in good faith.

Comments such as your post are not helpful and I would suggest that you change your approach.

[Roger Smith]

All the publications made by FAS are based on the conconcted stories published by US newspapers.So don't believe on these stupid things published by FAS.

:? :help

Do you have any other reliable source? :? :smokingc:

[gf0012-aust]

The difficulty is that FAS tries to provide information for free - so it relies on reliable other free sources. Some of these are right, some are wrong. You just need to be careful quoting them. Even Janes gets it wrong now and then.

I tend to have access to other sources not in the public domain - thats the difficulty.

[mysterious]

Yeah. I agree with what u're tryin to say gf. Thats pretty true! :smokingc:

[mukul]

India conducted mnay test of soild fuel Prithvi missiles , now only soild version of this missiles handed to army.

The Privthi is liquid only - it was based on the US Scout missile. To re-engine the Privthi to use solid fuel packs would be an expensive and somewhat debatable exercise in futility - especially when other opportunities are possible.

Redesigning an SRBM from liquid to solids is highly questionable when the rest of Indias ballistic missile ORBAT covers range overlaps.

However, if you have links confirming a conversion to solid fuels it would be good to see them posted.

Well First of all Privthi is not based on US Scout Missile , infact it is based on Russian From Russian SA-2. Army missile.

Last tested on April 29, 2003 from a site in eastern Orissa state. A defense ministry spokesman deemed it successful. This version of the missile has "the latest on-board computer and navigation system and can use both solid and liquid propellant

http://www.ceip.org/files/projects/npp/resources/ballisticmissilechart.htm


India tests nuclear-capable Prithvi missile
By Jatindra Dash, Indo-Asian News Service


ADVERTISEMENT





Bhubaneswar, Jan 23 (IANS) India Friday successfully test-fired the nuclear-capable surface-to-surface Prithvi (Earth) missile from a range in coastal Orissa state, defence sources said.

The 8.5-metre-high and one-metre-thick missile, mounted on a mobile launcher, was fired from the integrated test range at Chandipur in Balasore district, 229 km from here, at about 2.39 p.m., the sources said.

The test was successful and the missile hit its target accurately, they said.

Equipped with the latest on-board computer and an advanced inertial navigation system, Prithvi is propelled by a mix of solid and liquid fuels.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/040123/43/2b3hu.html

[gf0012-aust]

Mukul, I'm not going to get into a competition with you. (Look at your own post - its a dual fuel system - which is what I tried to point out to you before - it is NOT a solid fuel missile.

In 2001 I was a delegate at a Land Warfare Conference which had Ballistic Missiles as one of the round table discussions.

The Privthi data was made available, (along with other SRBMs) showing its development path.

This was a military conference, ie a valid security pass access only event, not an "armchair general" or a military hobbyists conference. It involved senior ranking military officers from numerous countries - specialists in their fields of relevant expertise. The guest speaker was an Indian Scientist.

India may publicly want to trace the lineage of the Privthi to something else for whatever reasons it deems fit - the bottom line is that its heritage is based on the Scout.

You may choose whatever sources you want to believe. Personally I will go with the experts, I have far more faith in believing the specialists, ballistic experts and uniforms than some article that deals with technology in the public domain.

Its a no brainer for me.

I think you should start to recognise the fact that there are experts - and then there are other "armchair" experts.

BTW, The most senior scientist in Australia dealing with ballistics and kinetic energy weapons is an Indian born naturalised Australian.

[gf0012-aust]

Brain ,,, please consult your source ........

Prathi is single stage missile ..... how can single stage missile two type of fuels at the same time ?

The lines means that prithaiv can use soild and liquid .... or we have borth version of prithaiv mssile .... mix fuel dosen't means it use liquid first and then soild later ... dosen it ? .... cmon please ....

1) don't be insulting or you will have an incredibly short forum life.
2) your posts talk about dual capability - not mine
3) I guess I will take your comments as being far more accurate than a room of 250 weapons specialists dealing with ballistic and tactical missiles?

I guess the Indian ballistics specialist has no idea what he is talking about either. I'll have to remind the conference organisers that he was providing inapprop information and that we were all misled. :eek

This is my last on this as it is apparent that you are unwilling to hear anything that does not conform to what you read in the papers or on the net.

As I said before. my faith in the information received at a land warfare conference is a bit more solid than your persistent attempts to promote your own vision.

Now assuming that India has redesigned the missile to become solid rather than liquid, then I think I'll wait to have it confirmed through work related sources rather than a media spin.

Redesigning an SRBM to go from liquid to solids is a significant and cumbersome step. There are BETTER ways to go about it.

[mysterious]

C'mon mukul. Dont tell me you wana argue with gf. Atleast I'll go with gf's side of the arguement :smokingc: