What are those things?

dorratz

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  • #3
I don't think so...

Listen, I don't think so that he is trying to break the sound barrier, cause breaking it take a very short time(the white cone is appeared only for few seconds), but you can see this kind of strips(like you can in the first picture) for much longer time.

You can see those strips also in this picture:
http://www.aero-pix.com/jsoh/f15/f15ecdta.jpg

I don't think this is a breaking of the sound barrier.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
dorratz said:
Listen, I don't think so that he is trying to break the sound barrier, cause breaking it take a very short time(the white cone is appeared only for few seconds), but you can see this kind of strips(like you can in the first picture) for much longer time.

You can see those strips also in this picture:
http://www.aero-pix.com/jsoh/f15/f15ecdta.jpg

I don't think this is a breaking of the sound barrier.
It is caused by the drop in pressure on the upper surface of the wing. The drop in pressure is also what produces the lift. The drop in pressure is associated with a drop in temperature. If these together make the moisture content in the air hit the condensation point then it condensates. So it is vapour trails.
 

dorratz

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Let's see if it clear enough...

Thanks for your help, I just want to see if I understood it:

Above the wing there is low pressure and low temparture, below the wing there is the opposite contidions. Together those conditions create vapor behind the wings?
this is exactly like the vapour trails behind the engines of the boeings?
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
dorratz said:
Thanks for your help, I just want to see if I understood it:

Above the wing there is low pressure and low temparture, below the wing there is the opposite contidions. Together those conditions create vapor behind the wings?
this is exactly like the vapour trails behind the engines of the boeings?
I found this on Wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapour_trail

Contrail creation
Contrails are created in one of two ways:

1. First, the airplane's exhaust increases the amount of moisture in the air, which can push the water content of the air past saturation point. This causes condensation to occur, and the contrail to form.

Aviation fuel such as petrol/gasoline (piston engines) or paraffin/kerosene (jet engines) consists primarily of hydrocarbons. When the fuel is burned, the carbon combines with oxygen to form carbon dioxide; the hydrogen also combines with oxygen to form water, which emerges as steam in the exhaust. For every gallon of fuel burned, approximately one gallon of water is produced, in addition to the water already present as humidity in the air used to burn the fuel. At high altitudes this steam emerges into a cold environment, (as altitude increases, the atmospheric temperature drops) which lowers the temperature of the steam until it condenses into tiny water droplets and/or desublimates into ice. These millions of tiny water droplets and/or ice crystals form the contrails. The temperature drop (and therefore, time and distance) the steam needs to condense accounts for the contrail forming some way behind the aircraft's engines.

2. The wings of an airplane cause a drop in air pressure in the vicinity of the wing (this is partly what allows a plane to fly). This drop in air pressure brings with it a drop in temperature, which can cause water to condense out of the air and form a contrail.

Exhaust contrails tend to be more stable and long-lasting than wing-tip contrails, which are often disrupted by the aircraft's wake and are commonly very short-lived.
So it's called saturation point and not condensation point as I said in previous post. ;)
 

dorratz

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Ok look...

Ok look, the relevant text is this one:
The wings of an airplane cause a drop in air pressure in the vicinity of the wing (this is partly what allows a plane to fly). This drop in air pressure brings with it a drop in temperature, which can cause water to condense out of the air and form a contrail.

But, I don't understand - if there is a drop in the pressure above the wing - then the water should condense there, but if there is a rise in the pressure below the wing- then the temperature should also rise there and the water shouldn't condense...

How can you explain that?
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
dorratz said:
But, I don't understand - if there is a drop in the pressure above the wing - then the water should condense there, but if there is a rise in the pressure below the wing- then the temperature should also rise there and the water shouldn't condense...

How can you explain that?
I guess it is this pic you're thinking of...

http://www.eteacher.co.il/temp/download/%FA%EE%E5%F0%E41.jpg

Well, I don't know for fact but I would say they're not produced by any rise in pressure under the wing surface. I would think they're created by low pressure vortices caused by the external payload.
 

dorratz

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So...

Yes - and we are talking about the wings.

Anyway, so actually most of the time there is contrails only above the wing and not under it - look at the picture of the f-15, but when the aircraft carries payload - it will have also contrails under the wing?
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Big-E said:
Wing contrails and engine contrails occur by two different processes, don't mix up the two.
Just to make sure. The contrails in the three posted pictures are caused by low pressure? ;)
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
dorratz said:
Yes - and we are talking about the wings.

Anyway, so actually most of the time there is contrails only above the wing and not under it - look at the picture of the f-15, but when the aircraft carries payload - it will have also contrails under the wing?
Regarding the F-15 pic:

Here is as how I understand it. The air flows at different speeds past wings, fuselage and payload. These differences in airspeed translates into different air pressures and this can cause condensation where the airspeed is high=low pressure. The airflow can even be in different regimes (sub-, trans-, and supersonic) around the fuselage etcetera at the same time. Vortices are also part of this system. Thus these diferences and turbulence precipitates vapour.

Heat-pump-effect from lower to upper surface of the wing through conductivity is certainly a possibility (I'm not an aeronautics engineer ;)), but would require for the wing to be considered solid.
 
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