US encourages Europe to help bolster Pak defence, security

fieldmarshal · July 1st, 2004

US encourages Europe to help bolster Pak defence, security
By Zia Iqbal Shahid
link http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/
Friday July 02, 2004-- Jamadi-ul-Awwal 13, 1425 A.H.

BRUSSELS: In the wake of President Pervez Musharrafâ€™s upcoming visit to two European sates, US defence officials in Brussels are engaged in encouraging their European allies of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (Nato) to effectively consider Pakistanâ€™s requests for purchase of defence equipment from European countries, a credible diplomatic source told The News.

Pakistan has made several formal requests for purchase of defence equipment including used F-16 fighter planes from different European countries. After completing all formalities involved in declaring Pakistan a Major Non-Nato Ally, the defence source said, the US has officially decided to provide help in strengthening, at all possible venues, the defence and security of the country playing a vital role in international war against terror.

Prior to the upcoming US-Pakistan Defence Consultative Group meeting expected to be held in September this year in Islamabad, the source said, the US authorities are working assiduously to get congressional approval for refurbishing the F-16 fleet provided to Pakistan including its up-gradation. The policy makers at the Pentagon, the defence source said, have already agreed to raise the strength of Pakistanâ€™s F-16s to its original level of 40 and help upgrade them, but it wouldnâ€™t be possible before a congressional approval.

The issue of strengthening Pakistanâ€™s security remained a subject of informal consultations in the recent EU-US summit in Ireland, Nato summit in Turkey and G-8 summit in the USA and leaders from both sides of the Atlantic agreed that Pakistanâ€™s security was vital for the ongoing war against terror, the source said.

In response to a question, the defence source said, the US authorities have not initiated as yet the process of seeking a congressional approval on the Pakistani request to provide Awacs as this issue will once again be discussed in the next Defence Consultative Group (DCG) meeting.

There is a wide difference of opinion in senior US defence official on the Pakistani request, which was made after Indian acquisition of Phalcon air borne system from Israel. Pakistan pleads that the Awacs is direly needed by the country in the changed security environment in South Asia.

The defence source also said the decision on Pakistanâ€™s request to acquire used F-16 fighter planes will be taken shortly. Belgium can only sell the used F-16 fighters to Pakistan if a clearance is given by the US administration. The defence source indicated that the US administration was willing to give such a clearance.

Defence experts in the West, however, are still busy in analysing the outcome of the Wana operation launched by the Pakistani security forces, the source said.

Some European countries are also planning to schedule of military-to-military exercises and training activities with Pakistan, the source said. Such plans would provide Pakistan avenues for deepening its existing military relations with European countries, besides offering new opportunities for strengthening it defence capability with the changing security environments in the region, the source said.

adsH · July 1st, 2004

notice the article said Help upgradeing the F-16 fleet means that the AC would not be moved from the country and they would probably be upgraded at local repair facility.

and the AWAC's, the US has now got the in principal policy approval. what i mean to say here is that the US does not introduce weapon systems in a region but if a competitor introduces a similar system in the region, then the US by its own policy is free to sell its weapon systems in that region.

mysterious · July 1st, 2004

That means, E-3Cs should be coming our way sooner or a bit later (after this DCG meeting, we may come to know more about the issue). I just want things to proceed now! Enough of talking and discussions! Darn, the patience is driving me nuts!

July 2nd, 2004

E-3C's are made by the US aren't they?

gf0012-aust · July 2nd, 2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aussie Digger

E-3C's are made by the US aren't they?

yep, the downside I can see here is that the US is still a little cranky at Pakistan giving the F-16 over to China for eval. They will be most cautious about providing an E3 of any shape, form or fashion in case it ends up in China for eval as well.

mysterious · July 2nd, 2004

Well I'd say the US (at the same time) also knows that 'why' Pakistan did what it did with that F-16! It was the US back-stabbing that led Pakistan to seek other sources of weapons systems and obviously advanced ones so China had to be given some bench-mark to start from in a way. Hope I'm getting my msg across. So, if the US is really sincere about its allied relationship with Pakistan this time round, it should take Pakistan in to confidence before providing the E-3Cs or other sensitive equipment and then remain true to its commitment and I'm sure Pakistan would be cautious of doing something like that (the F-16 case) again.

gf0012-aust · July 2nd, 2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by mysterious

Well I'd say the US (at the same time) also knows that 'why' Pakistan did what it did with that F-16! It was the US back-stabbing that led Pakistan to seek other sources of weapons systems and obviously advanced ones so China had to be given some bench-mark to start from in a way. Hope I'm getting my msg across. So, if the US is really sincere about its allied relationship with Pakistan this time round, it should take Pakistan in to confidence before providing the E-3Cs or other sensitive equipment and then remain true to its commitment and I'm sure Pakistan would be cautious of doing something like that (the F-16 case) again.

It's got nothing to do with US sincerity. Its the issue that a tier 1 weapon system runs the risk of being jeopardised - and thats the way that they may look at it due to recent history.

The E3 is a far more crucial piece of kit, the fact that Israel did not shift the Phalcon to China (and the Phalcon is deemed to be less capable) may be a sign of what is likely. The Saudi E3's are co-crewed at some stations, I can't imagine the Pakistani Govt allowing US co-crewing on their planes.

Due to local sensitivities it's not even allowing US troops to engage in hot pursuit. An AWACs is a completely different thing again.

To expect the US to roll over so quickly is very optimistic. There needs to be a reality check here. The US knows that it's relationship with Pakistan is somewhat fractious, but it isn't going to jeopardise tier 1 technology unless it can elicit some kind of guarantee. And that will mean co-crewing at workstations. (just like the Saudi's and Japan)

mysterious · July 2nd, 2004

But the thing is that I dont think the US would give Pakistan some brand new E-3Cs with the latest upgrades. It would most probably be second hand ones with capabilities somewhat on the Phalcon level so as to balance of the Indo-Pak scenario in that sector. What do you think? Even those E-3Cs would be needed to be co-crewed cuz of US reluctance?

gf0012-aust · July 2nd, 2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by mysterious

Even those E-3Cs would be needed to be co-crewed cuz of US reluctance?

Yes, they would. Even the older analogue E3's are considered to be more powerful than the Phalcon.

OTOH, the E2's may not be subjected to the same conditions. They have less range (which is still rumoured to be better than the IL-76 Mays) and less concurrent acquisitions (compared to an E3C)

mysterious · July 2nd, 2004

So is an E-2 better or at par with a Phalcon or not?

gf0012-aust · July 2nd, 2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by mysterious

So is an E-2 better or at par with a Phalcon or not?

The Phalcon is a far larger system, hence it has the capacity to:

have more potable water onboard - thus able to stay on station with crew comfort attended to
is able to loiter longer
has a stronger more powerful directional seeker (forward)
uses phased arrays for sidescanning
uses digital systems, which are lighter and not dependant on mechanical searches (eg not a radome, so uniform sweep)

I'm unsure as to what the export models would have as part of the std EW fit,

The E2C is rumoured to have similar range, but is a smaller aircraft, so it's range is affected.
It's less dependant on large airstrips, so is more flexible in deployment
Is of a known capability
Is less resource intensive
Cheaper to service and maintain

There are negatives for both, but not too many people like hearing about the negative issues in life.

mysterious · July 2nd, 2004

Oh yeah! That last sentence is pretty true.

Oqaab · July 2nd, 2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by mysterious

That means, E-3Cs should be coming our way sooner or a bit later (after this DCG meeting, we may come to know more about the issue). I just want things to proceed now! Enough of talking and discussions! Darn, the patience is driving me nuts!

Pakistan negotiated for E-2C Hawkeye AWACS. E-2Cs have a maximum range of 550 kms. They are a better option then Erieye.

adsH · July 2nd, 2004

i think PAF will get E3c new versions !! and they would be co crewed with USAf personnel!! just like the new ground radar stations! USAF needs to bolster its Capability while its is redirecting it's already stretched assets !! giving Pak 3 E3c with operators and working with PAF operators would allow the US to get three E3c in the feild for cheap. The US has a bilateral relation ship with Pakistan. India cannot affect the decision that the US administration would make regarding Pakistan, beside the Falcons were given to India to be used against China not Pakistan. Pakistan is special interest Ally Like Israel to the US!!

fieldmarshal · July 2nd, 2004

awacs being opperated by a joint team of us n PAF personal is very interustin but highly unlikely...........n PAF personal already have experience on awacs Saudi ie.