UAE Confirms Discussions With France On Purchase Of Rafale

[SABRE]

Originally Posted by ROCK45

SABRE going by what you said Pakistan personnel should know by actually flying both aircraft the specs of the radar and full knowledge of the weapons suite. Going further with this Pakistan personnel have had access to Vipers with ASEA radar's,wow I'm sure Lockheed isn't happy about that. Which means also information could be passed onto the Chinese as well? I'm not saying they did and knowing the capabilities of a radar doesn't mean you can build one I'm just saying it possible.

Lockheed never raised a voice but US congress did. However, matter was resolved in favor of PAF. Search on google may be you find something. I did find an article on it long time back.

Do you know if UAE Mirages are rated better or the same as Greece's MK2? I'm looking around but not finding anything.

Thanks

I don't think there would be any significant difference between the two's ratings. But some say M2K9 is better.

NOTE: Mirage2000-9 was first drawn for PAF with high ranking PAF officials in presence. I think it was designated as M2K5P first than M2K9P since PAF was also thinking of adding other foreign gadgets (other than French0. But the aircraft came out to be expensive and the deal French produced on paper did not favor PAF in long run. The deal was later offered to UAE with further changes in the plan. UAE approved of it. PAF officials were still working on the plans (but now for UAE) thats how PAF pilots became one of the firsts to have flew these machines. (Do google on this; there was an article on this as well)

[Crunchy]

Hi,

hope you guys don't mind when I revive this thread.

I just want to add a potential user for UAE's relatively young Mirage 2000-9:

the Vietnamese People's Air Force

Why?

- in 1979 Vietnam's "northern fighter regiments" had no strike capabilites to stop the advancing Chinese forces > bitter lesson
(The ex-South Vietnamese A-37s were already occupied in Cambodia with the Red Khmer.)

- still today VPAF's strike squadrons - 60 Sukhoi Su-22M4 - are all stationed on the Southern ABs.
(In case of an armed conflict over the Spratleys the Su-22s would suppport the 15 Su-27/30 in the VPAF's inventory.)

- Vietnam wanted to buy 24 Mirage 2000s in the 1996, but the US (arms) embargo prevented the French from selling them to Vietnam. The arms embargo was lifted several years ago. ->By then Vietnam had already bought the Su-27/30 instead to enforce its' claim over the Spratley Islands.

- Reformistic & stable Vietnam is much more acceptable for arms exports than near-bankruptcy/civil war Pakistan. (Sure there are dificits in human rights & rule of law in Vietnam, but aren't those Mirage 2000 property of the UAE? Donations anyone?)

- In 2010/12 the next round of downzising the Army (485000 -> 375000) will free up alot of resources for procurement of new/secondhand weapon systems. But VPAF cannot afford to replace its backbone - the 150 MiG-21bis - one by one. The Mirage 2000-9 + some additional Su-30 would be a good interim solution until 2020.

- The VPAF could then be a future customer for the Rafale. Final round of downsizing of the Army (down to 275000) would be around 2018/20 according to officials' statements - more money for more toys.

- It's well known that Vietnam wants to diversty its' arms suppliers. So far only Isreal & India & Ukraine & Belorussia have gotten into deals with Vietnam. Until 2020 Vietnam has to upgrade its Armed forces in a lowcost way.

- India sees Vietnam as a serious partner to counter China's rise. India could/will help Vietnam to get into French weapon systems.

- France has shown several times interests to work closer with Vietnam. DCNS has already stated several times that Vietnam & Thailand are the two most potential customers for the Andrasta SSK.

- PRC is building/expanding major AF/Navy bases on Hainan. Soon Su-27/J-11 will soon be permanently stationed on Hainan in larger numbers. Headcaches for Vietnam

- UAE (especially their state funds) has signed major contracts with the Vietnamese government/SOEs. It's said that the UAE wants to invest up to 20 billions 'til 2025 in Vietnam's infrastructure/real estate projects and Vietnam would send up to 300000 workers to the UAE. Maybe there can be some more options.

[ROCK45]

I don't know enough about Vietnam to be honest but are there real ties between the countries you mentioned? I never heard of Vietnam workers in those numbers working in or for the UAE can you post a link to that if you can, thanks.

Wouldn't China be a little unhappy with Vietnam buying semi advance Mirage fighters in their back yard?

I always thought China pressured France into not selling more Mirage 2000-5to Taiwan wouldn't Vietnam fall into the same type of situation?

You mentioned

60 Sukhoi Su-22M4

I thought Poland was the only user who upgraded the to M4 standards, please correct me if I'm wrong. About Su-22s that would suppport the 15 Su-27/30 over the Spratleys
there pretty short range platforms not to sure they have the range. Do they really have 60?

[Crunchy]

Originally Posted by ROCK45

I don't know enough about Vietnam to be honest but are there real ties between the countries you mentioned? I never heard of Vietnam workers in those numbers working in or for the UAE can you post a link to that if you can, thanks.

Wouldn't China be a little unhappy with Vietnam buying semi advance Mirage fighters in their back yard?

I always thought China pressured France into not selling more Mirage 2000-5to Taiwan wouldn't Vietnam fall into the same type of situation?

You mentioned I thought Poland was the only user who upgraded the to M4 standards, please correct me if I'm wrong. About Su-22s that would suppport the 15 Su-27/30 over the Spratleys
there pretty short range platforms not to sure they have the range. Do they really have 60?

It's not like that 300000 workers will come to the UAE at the same time. Vietnam's population will grow in the next two decade, so it's part of the national plan to send thousands abroad every year to relieve the domestic labour market.

http://english.vietnamnet.vn/social/2008/01/764782/

Vietnam is not a renegade province of China. As an independent nation the Viets are free to deal with everyone. (Sure Arms deal are always political. But he... Mirage 2000s aren't ICBMs.)

Well, actually Poland & Belorussia sold their Su-22 to Vietnam a few years ago.
Yes, the Su-22 do have the range to operate over the Spratleys. See link below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VfmVKoLGzg

Only Vietnam's human rights violations & the price & logistics considerations are hurdles towards Western arms sales to Vietnam. Nothing else.

[ROCK45]

Hi Crunchy
I didn't mean apply Vietnam is a renegade province of China I understand it not but it would be a political situation for Vietnam to purchase Mirage 2000-5/9 from the UAE, your still on China's border. Doesn't China also claim the entire Spratleys Islands as well and their oil? I'm not saying it's right don't get me wrong but its out there and on the table.

I agree Vietnam is independent nation and should have every right to purchase fighters from any country they chose to. I find this interesting and thank you for posting that link it helps understand things a little better.

As far the Su-22 goes I guess depends on how far the Su-22 need to go. I have read good things about the Su-22 that its a pilots aircraft. One of my favorite little cold war strikers. Peru is another country that comes to mind that got a lot of years service out there Su-20/22 over the years.

If Vietnam bought the UAE's Mirage 2000-5/9 teamed with their Flankers it would give a Vietnam's Air Force a powerful combo. I can't see the Mirages going cheap and Vietnam might be able to buy almost 2 Flankers for one Mirage depending the deal and goodies that come with the purchase deal.

You mention Vietnam's human rights violations I know little about current Vietnam is this something that the government is improving on?

Thanks

[jtm]

According to the french press and several defense blogs here in France, UAE's Mirage2000-9 will be rebought by France who will...sell them to undefined buyers.
French Armée De l'Air (ADA) is not interested by these AC, indeed ADA's mirages are too different to the -9 to make it interesting. By the way the rafale is supposed to replace most of mirages at term...
You will ask, why buy them then...because Dassault has been unable to sell any mirage outside of France, and it's becoming critical for the whole program.

[ROCK45]

Hi jtm
Are any of those articles and or Blogs in English? Do you know of any French aircraft sources that are always in English please list them, I'm always interested in hearing a different view.

Thanks

[jtm]

Hi ROCK45,

I'm sorry but I don't know any french military related blog in english, looks like we're not that interesting
By the way I desperatly tried to find an english source confirming the fact that france are gonna buy the 2000-9 to resell them in exchange of the rafale deal...
French press and blogs reporting this are, I think, reliable, so I tend to believe them. If I find any english confirmation I'll post it here for sure.

[ROCK45]

Thanks jtm for trying just wanted to get the French take on things if I could.

If it's true I wonder who the French would resell the Mirage 9's to I'm sure their fully operational with low air time on the frames. A friend told me the UAE use the Vipers more but I can't confirm that.

I suspect that Frances air force would keep a bunch for themselves. I would have to look it up but maybe they still have some F1 operational in a recon role or maybe some of their Mirage 2000-N are getting up on age and frame time and could use a replacement.

The bottom line is even if they eat them and take the loss they need to sell or move the new model period. If it were myself I would have sold a squadron at huge offset prices to get the product on the market. Sometimes you have take chances and invest in yourself. Frances Air Force could have always cut the numbers off the end of the production if need be. To me they had little to lose and more to gain to take the chance and get them out there.

Brazil or Greece would have been flying a squadron for two years or more now and getting tons of press coverage. Maybe it's just my way of thinking but that's what I would have done five years ago.

[jtm]

Over here the word is that the french army won't keep the planes : the -9 standard is apparently too different to the -5 and N to be efficiently and at low cost integrated to the ADA, especially because of the differences in avionics and software.
I must add that half of the -9 are actually old mirage2000SAD8, upgraded to the -9 standard.

So it's not interesting for the French ADA to keep it.

Rumors say that the PAF is interested in buying them, but it might be a little hot right now (politically maybe not the right time), so we should keep them in a hangar for a while.

At last, I must report here a rumor I've heard, with no proof at all. Some says that the french army is actually gonna keep the UAE -9s, and Dassault Aviation is gonna deliver the brand new rafale to the UAE Air Force BEFORE the French ADA.
I personnally can't believe it, for obvious political and strategical reasons, but...you never know.

[Crunchy]

Frenchs are desperatly looking for customer of their combat-aircrafts, but seriously the current economic crisis will make it very hard to gain some orders/deals. It will interesting to see where those Mirage 2000-9 are heading to - if they will be sold.
For me hopefully to the VPAF.

[ROCK45]

Maybe a deal between Frances Total Co and Vietnam can be worked out. Gas platform, refineries, etc money to be made. If I'm not mistaking Frances Total Co are already in Burma and may be at other countries in the region as well?

The Mirage 2000-5's get over looked but are still capable fighters on many levels.

jtm do you think my idea of getting a offset price squadron of Rafale's out there for the world to see has any merit? It seems like such a capable fighter I can't understand why no sales.

Are MICA expensive? Compared to AA-12/AIM-120?

Can Rafale's mark their own targets yet?

[Crunchy]

I checked the media headlines today:

Vietnam's Prime Minister is currently in the UAE. A large business delegation is going with him, but also some military brass.

France's president Sarkozy is expected to visit Vietnam in second quarter of 2009.

This can't be a coincidence.

[jtm]

That's the point of the french government : finally sell a damn squadron to show the world the plane's good... To answer your question : selling high tech weapons such as a 4th generation fighter planes needs a strong diplomatic force, which france no longer has. Every time Dassault and the french government were close to a deal, the US came up with huge price cuts on F16s...especially just after the beginning of the war in 2003 (Rice said at the time Forgive Russia, forget Germany, Punish France. ).

The Rafale had not yet reached his full potential, since "F3+" standard is to be reached by 2012 (maybe later). France already ordered 286 Rafale : 228 for the ADA and 58 for the French Navy ; about 60 are actually operationnal today in the French military. They are engaged everyday in Afghanistan since early 2009, replacing the Mirages 2000D previously positioned there.

According to me France is desperate to sell Rafale for 2 main reasons :
- if this plane is not exported it will be the very last French fighter plane : loss of independance, loss of qualifications for the french military and aircraft industry.
- it causes an industrial problem : Dassault oversized the production plants, and the French government actually can't pay for all the planes Dassault could hypoteticaly deliver each year, so the plants run slow. Of course, it's never a good thing for the profitability of such a project to have factories running half time...


Over here the propaganda is very strong and clear : the Rafale is the best ever fighter plane (if you forget the F22). I'd be glad to read comments from people knowing what they are talking about and who are less biaised than french officials : is Rafale really competitive ? How is it seen out of France ?

Thanks for your opinions on the plane...

[swerve]

Originally Posted by ROCK45

If it's true I wonder who the French would resell the Mirage 9's to I'm sure their fully operational with low air time on the frames. A friend told me the UAE use the Vipers more but I can't confirm that.

About half of the Mirage 2000-9s are upgraded older M2Ks, delivered from 1989, & were the main combat type for over ten years. I expect they have a fair few hours on them, though I'm sure they've been well maintained. The new-built M2K-9s were delivered from 2003.

If the UAE does buy Rafale, I would expect the old Mirage 2000EAD/-9 to be retired first. That would give them over 20 years in service, & the new -9s maybe 10 years, probably at lower average usage rates, by the time they're replaced. Any potential buyer would have to take account of the two batches having very different future service lives.

Buying the Qatari M2K-5s & bringing them all to the same standard might also be an attractive option.