Small Stealth Ucav vs JASSM

[Paul OZ]

Small Stealth Ucav Concept.
Hyperthetical Black Ucav project. Fact or Fiction?
Possible or unnecessary?
Cost effective or not?
Pro's & Con's?

UCAV air launched from FA-18F or F-35. UCAV payload Small Diameter Glide Bomb.
UCAV would have Air/Sea/land recovery or autonomous landing capability.

SCARAB 324 : 6.15m, Payload 131.5kg, operating radius 975km, max speed 987kph, ceiling 13100m(43000ft), Gross weight 1130kg, Propulsion Teledyne CAE 373-8C turbojet.
BQM-145A : 5.6m, Payload 135kg, operating radius 650km, max speed 1115kph, ceiling 12192m(40000ft), Gross weight 900kg, Propulsion Teledyne CAE F408-CA-400 Turbofan.
GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb: 1.8m x 190ml, weight 129kg, glide range 110km(102 released at 987kph from 12192m), unit cost $70000- $90000.

VS

JASSM 4.27m, range 370km, weight 975kg, unit cost $700,000, Propulsion Teledyne CAE J402-CA-100 turbojet.
JASSM-ER range 926km.

Re-useable UCAV($70000 SDB) vs JASSM one use ($700000).

In my opinion the Small Stealth UCAV is a cost effective option.
I would suggest Australia approach Northrop Grumman to further develop the type.

Opinions or input anyone?

Regards,

OZ

References:
Black UCAv, page 1
stargazer2006.online.fr/unmanned/scarab.htm
stargazer2006.online.fr/unmannned/peregrine.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-158_JASSM
Net Traveller: Small Stealth UAV?

 

[My2Cents]

This is an apples and oranges comparison. :argue

The JASSM has a much larger warhead than the SDB, so the choice will depend on what kind of targets you anticipate. The JASSM can be used against targets suitable for SDBs, but can the SDB handle all the targets suitable for the JASSM?

On the other hand, the Scarab would also be usable for low level conflicts, such as Afghanistan or Libya, especially with a different weapons load like Spike or Hellfire missiles.
:duel

 

[Paul OZ]

Touche'!!!!

Apples and Oranges, understood! But the cost saving, 70 grand v's 700 is a huge difference. Many missions could be done with the Scarab/SDB.

I do agree with the Scarab for low level strike, Hellfire and the like.

I am just struggling to understand the huge investment in larger ucav's when the Scarab tech is already done (stealth, capacity, range). Smaller investment in development than creating a whole new type. Just imagine a cruise missile that does the job and returns home!

JASSMER or Scarab-er?
Food for thought!
Save $$$$$!!
Cheers

OZ

 

[My2Cents]

It is not the missions that could be done with the Scarab/SDB, it is the missions that cannot, like taking out an entire hanger, factory, or apartment block. The SDB warhead is too small for that.

But, don’t be surprised if something like the Scarab/SDB shows in the arsenal sooner rather than later. Or maybe just a kit converting the SDB into an ER configuration. There are lots of possibilities.

As for the investment in larger UCAVs:
1 – These are designed from the start for internal bomb carriage to maximize stealth. The Scarab has the payload capacity, but it is the wrong shape and external carriage will violate stealth.
2 – Larger payloads and dimensions increase flexibility and bomb size. The Scarab has already maxed out its growth potential.
3 – There is tactical stealth (I can’t get a lock on the <expletive>!:lul) and there is strategic STEALTH (What the <expletive> just happened!?:nutkick). The Scarab is the former, most the larger UAVs go for the later. Larger UAVs can also carry countermeasures for when stealth does not work well enough, and they can fly higher.
4 – Sensor load. The Scarab loses most of its sensor capabilities to free up weight for the bomb.
5 – Communications. There are a major bandwidth, range, and stealth limitations when using local broadcast control. Larger drones can use satellite links to increase the number of UAVs that can be simultaneously deployed by an order of magnitude or more, plus increased resistance to jamming.
6 – There are more reasons, but you get the idea.

 

[Paul OZ]

That's awesome feed back. All valid points.

Appreciate it. Thanks for your 2 cents.

Regards

OZ

 

[Paul OZ]

Conscience!

Just one more thing keeps nagging at me. With the concept of stealth combined with high speed, autonomous control and with 'Internal' ordinance, couldn't the Scarab be the the basis to develop this concept?

Last Question, I promise!

I know I'm a pain.:hitwall

OZ

 

[My2Cents]

Just one more thing keeps nagging at me. With the concept of stealth combined with high speed, autonomous control and with 'Internal' ordinance, couldn't the Scarab be the the basis to develop this concept?

Last Question, I promise!

I know I'm a pain. :hitwall

OZ

Well, if you ignore the fact that

• the only ‘internal’ ordinance would be an explosive charge turning the Scarab into a guided missile
• it’s relatively slow speed, while perfectly adequate for surveillance work, is hardly high speed.
• limited stealth

Sure. nfloorl:

But there are a lot of better alternatives.

 

[Paul OZ]

Yes I'm a novice!

Well, if you ignore the fact that

• the only ‘internal’ ordinance would be an explosive charge turning the Scarab into a guided missile
• it’s relatively slow speed, while perfectly adequate for surveillance work, is hardly high speed.
• limited stealth

Sure. nfloorl:

But there are a lot of better alternatives.

So, I know you'll give me another spray. But I was referring to speed in relation to other UAV's.
So, it's a pipe dream to develop the Scarab to host the SDB. We've got just as much chance of getting a carrier, I know. But stuff me up a gum tree a lot of people talked about that one!
I know I'm dreaming, but I'm trying.

Now, you've got me intrigued. Can you please point out the better alternatives?

Thanks,

OZ

ps. I won't bother you again!

 

[wormhole]

It wouldn't be cost effective, not enough bang for the buck. If you want to go unmanned, look at something like an Avenger/Predator C or a UCAS which are stealthy and can carry enough internal weapons to make a difference. They won't be cheap but you get what you pay for (usually).

 

[wormhole]

Not to say you can't arm a small UAV. The 81mm Mortar Round with GPS can be tube-launched but it has also been successfully dropped from UAVs , a poor man's JDAM sort of. A round would probably weigh in at around 10lbs so even a small UAV could carry a bunch of them giving the infantry its own aerial strike capability.

 

[ADMk2]

Not to say you can't arm a small UAV. The 81mm Mortar Round with GPS can be tube-launched but it has also been successfully dropped from UAVs , a poor man's JDAM sort of. A round would probably weigh in at around 10lbs so even a small UAV could carry a bunch of them giving the infantry its own aerial strike capability.

Plenty of ways to employ mortar bombs if you get creative...

 

[My2Cents]

So, I know you'll give me another spray. But I was referring to speed in relation to other UAV's.
So, it's a pipe dream to develop the Scarab to host the SDB. We've got just as much chance of getting a carrier, I know. But stuff me up a gum tree a lot of people talked about that one!
I know I'm dreaming, but I'm trying.

Now, you've got me intrigued. Can you please point out the better alternatives?

The questions that you need to answered are:

1. How much range? This determines the fuel fraction of the total weight.
2. How many targets per sortie? What kind of targets? This will determine the types and quantities of munitions it will have to handle, which will give you minimum payload and stowage requirements.
3. Do you need maximum stealth? If so, you need to subordinate all other requirements to that task, starting with a requirement for internal stowage of weapons, you are going to end up nearly building a minimal UAV around it. The problem here is less the weight then the dimensions. An SDB is only 7.5 inches wide, but it is nearly 6 feet long. The next step up is a 500lb JDAM, which is nearly 9 feet long. For stability the bomb bay will need to be located on the centerline slightly below the center of mass.
4. The propulsion system (engine intakes, exhaust, and ductwork), presumably a jet engine since you want high speeds, will also want to be on the centerline, so the size will have to grow to remove interferences. Another possibility would be to use 2 smaller engines located on either side of bomb bay. Top speed is defined by the thrust to weight ratio.
5. Shape – The Scarab is modeled on an older stealth design that predating the concept of the faceted shape that lead to the F-117. To be truly stealthy will require a completely different airframe, probably more like the B-2.
6. The rest of the design can be divided into various other mechanical items like control actuators and landing gear, which can be approximated as a fixed percentage of the total weight, and fixed items, such as sensors and communications gear, which while important and costly will not vary much with the size of the UAV.

Put those requirements together and you end up with, well, one of your high cost systems under development. :hul