This is a discussion on Sixth Generation Fighter within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Boeing has described its "6th Gen" fighter in combination with a planned F/A-18E/F Block III:
Originally Posted by Aviation Week
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Boeing has described its "6th Gen" fighter in combination with a planned F/A-18E/F Block III:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aviation Week
"Boeing is touting an even newer version of its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet that, paired with an advanced sixth-generation fighter in the works at the company, would give customers what Boeing deems a better package of capabilities than Lockheed Martin's combination of the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.
The idea is that customers could buy 4.5 generation Super Hornets (perhaps 4.75 generation with the planned extra forward stealth and extra range of Block 3 aircraft) and then switch to a new, sixth generation faster than if they bought the fifth generation Joint Strike Fighter. To be available circa 2024, the sixth generation aircraft would feature a combat radius of more than 1,000 miles and stealth against a much wider spectrum of radars.
"The [Navy] C-version of the F-35 doesn't buy you a lot that the Super Hornet doesn't provide," says Bob Gower, Boeing's vice president for F/A-18 and EA-18G programs. "Our strategy is to create a compelling reason for the services to go to the next [sixth] generation platform. How do you bridge F/A-18E/F to get us there? We want to convince customers to stay with [Super Hornet] a few years longer -- by adding advanced capabilities and lowering price -- so that they can get to the sixth generation faster. If you go to JSF first, it's going to be a long time."
Another part of Boeing's argument is that the "Navy is comfortable with the Super Hornet against the highest [enemy] threat through 2024, with the [improved] capabilities we have in the flight plan," Gower says. "The ability to counter the threat gets you to about the point that [Boeing's] sixth generation is available."
It's part of Boeing's counterattack on Lockheed Martin's claim that the decreasing price of the F-22, which is now at $140 million each, will make it so attractive that Australia may reconsider its buy -- already being paid for -- of 24 two-seat F/A-18F Super Hornets. Until Australia's recent change in government, a number of U.S. officials said the government was considering a second lot of 24 Super Hornets and a six-plane squadron of EA-18G Growlers.
Boeing makes the argument that a sliding in-service date for the JSF is worrying both the Australians and the U.S. military.
"The U.S. Air Force and Navy are now talking a lot more about where they need to go with sixth generation to get beyond JSF," Gower says. "It could be unmanned, but I think you will see a combination of missions -- some manned, some unmanned."
For Boeing, the real discriminators are going to be extended range (1,000-1,500 miles), a small radar signature against low-frequency radars, expanded awareness through connections with the network, and the ability to carry a number of bombs internally."
One has to beg the question as to wether this is just a ploy to sell some more Rhino's. Would the 6th gen fighter be ready by 2024, considering we know virtually nothing of its design goals or capabilities? Although 16 years is plenty.
What would be the criteria for the 6th gen fighter to distinguish it from 5th gen? I thought an interesting comment was "It could be unmanned, but I think you will see a combination of missions -- some manned, some unmanned." Perhaps fitted for but not with a Pilot? It seems the F-35A~C may not be the USAF's last maned fighter after all?
I would love to hear some opinions on this project.
I like the sounds of this only if the American congress allows the external sales of this airplane. I also like the F-18 but it is sowing it's age and an upgraded version would be ideal to nations like Australia and Canada. But you cannot just keep on pumping more juice to a dead horse once it's charm has rubbed off you can never get the charm back. Kinda like trying to modernize a F-111 to the brink of where a new plane would make more sense.
It's not easy for Boeing these days... As soon as slots in the F-35 programme becomes available for export customers, hard times will fall upon the sales prospects of "4 3/4 Gen" jets.
And now the KC-X.
________________ "Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell the world, eh?"
I never really did like the F18 all that much, coz low speed, low payload and short range. A6E was better bombtruck, F14 was better interceptor. F18 is multirole tho...
If they improve in these areas OK. I think "It could be unmanned" is a brilliant move, and is what will define a 6th gen fighter, together with all aspect stealth.
What i think is especially appealing is 1: to send the aircraft on a suicidemission like take out AWACs.(its hard work convincing a pilot he's the right man for the task) and 2: just loitering around on the flanks and triangle everything that radiates. You just need a handful of these planes.
7th gen is getting more interesting, mach 6, long range, cloaking, laser, who knows..
Last edited by Dr Freud; March 1st, 2008 at 05:15 AM.
It's not easy for Boeing these days... As soon as slots in the F-35 programme becomes available for export customers, hard times will fall upon the sales prospects of "4 3/4 Gen" jets.
And now the KC-X.
Yeah, this is why i'm slightly scheptical of wether the 6th gen fighter will be ready as a replacement for the 5th gen by 2024. F/A-18E/F & F-15K/SG are boeings only real military export oportunities and they'll dry up one F-35A/C hits the scene. All in all it sounds like a good deal but if your relying on 4.5th gen alone and this magic 6th gen fighter is either delayed or denied export and the threat has evolved to 5th gen, well you'd probably buy late build F-35's, which means you will be annother 10-15 years behind 6th gen. Kind of a catch 22 if that one occurs.
Well, indeed most nations leave out one or two generations, jumping from 2nd to 4th gen or so called 4.5 or even 5th gen. Perhaps Boeing's statement is more or less directed towards those who are inducting 3+ or 4+ generation fighters at the moment, saying don't panic, the JSF isn't the end of all times. Staying with the 4.5 generation fighters probably won't be too much of a problem compared to rushing into a JSF-buy for most countries' needs.
Most of these fighters like the SH or EF will be phased out in the 2030-2040 timeframe. By the time the (evolved) JSF will still be on the market I guess and perhaps first 6th gen designs will be mature enough.
For me as a specialist in production technology rather than aircraft design a revolutionary step is hard to imagine.
I guess that besides the all-aspect stealth and better network capabilities the defining stuff will be:
- an all black airframe
- a significantly enhanced MMI
- further enhanced "all-around-sensor-suite" utilizing parts of the hull as sensor arrays
- much better self-defence suite perhaps based on directed energy weapons
- significantly increased operational speed (with the accordant engine technology)
Unlike many others I don't believe the next generation will be unmanned. Especially in the very tight and populated European air space that'll not be an option. And I don't think DEW's will serve as primary weapons so soon.
To be available circa 2024, the sixth generation aircraft would feature a combat radius of more than 1,000 miles and stealth against a much wider spectrum of radars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzy Blizzard
What would be the criteria for the 6th gen fighter to distinguish it from 5th gen?
Bigger? hmmmm
Add: on the other hand...with some improvment of fuel efficency and behaps ability to combine realy good aerodynamics together with stealht, its mayby not need to increase the size that much
I'm having a hard time believing DEW will serve as the primary weapon on such a small aircraft too, allthough i can't fully dismiss it.
Perhaps jumbojets will serve as the primary fighter, they will have the capability to use DEW, indeed they allready have.
I do belive technological breakthroughs is going to come faster and faster. (perhaps a combination of historical fact and wishful thinking)
I see a really useful niche for unmanned aircrafts tho.
Perhaps 6th generation's defining capability may not necessarily be the fighter being unmanned...but rather its capability to operate closely and "naturally" with a range of unmanned aircraft. Perhaps develop a concept that could be very closely linked many assets...manage to direct control on UAV/UCAVs?
Actually who is boeing to say what defines 6th gen or not? If generations are to be followed strictly, then JSF wouldnt be 5th gen coz it doesnt have supercruise.
Boeing (MacD) offered an export version of the Hornet decades ago. The F-18L was a de-Navalized version, taking away all of the heavy beef needed for carrier landings. With the hinges on the wing removed, those massive wing carry through bulkheads thinned up and a set of YF-17 landing gear, on paper, the aircraft's performance saw impressive gains. A similar new, by today's standard, version could be even more attractive.
If they based the F-18L(new) on the original C/D size and keep the F414's which have 35% more thrust than the original F404 series engines, puts the thrust/weight ratio on the right side of 1:1. A new hinge-less composite wing would give better maneuverability, range and a lower RCS. Give the new model a pair of vectored thrust nozzles and it could be quite formidable and tempting to potential F-35 customers.
Betting on the F-35 variants to be a) delayed, b) not as good as advertised, c) more expensive then advertised -- seems safe money to me.
Boeing (MacD)
Betting on the F-35 variants to be a) delayed, b) not as good as advertised, c) more expensive then advertised -- seems safe money to me.
Especially as it has already met or exceeded those criterias
Actually who is boeing to say what defines 6th gen or not? If generations are to be followed strictly, then JSF wouldnt be 5th gen coz it doesnt have supercruise.
I think the general consensus is that the defining features of 5th gen over 4th or 4.5 are VLo and the ability to operate in a nextworked environment. Supercruise is superfluos to the core requirements.
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hmmmm
