Saudi Arabia F-15SA Deal Details Released

[SpudmanWP]

WASHINGTON, October 20, 2010 – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress today of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Saudi Arabia of:

84 F-15SA Aircraft
170 APG-63(v)3 Active Electronically Scanned Array Radar (AESA) radar sets
193 F-110-GE-129 Improved Performance Engines
100 M61 Vulcan Cannons
100 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System/Low Volume Terminal (MIDS/LVT) and spares
193 LANTIRN Navigation Pods (3rd Generation-Tiger Eye)
338 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
462 AN/AVS-9 Night Vision Goggles (NVGS)
300 AIM-9X SIDEWINDER Missiles
25 Captive Air Training Missiles (CATM-9X)
25 Special Air Training Missiles (NATM-9X)
500 AIM-120C/7 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)
25 AIM-120 CATMs
1,000 Dual Mode Laser/Global Positioning System (GPS) Guided Munitions (500 lb)
1,000 Dual Mode Laser/GPS Guided Munitions (2000 lb)
1,100 GBU-24 PAVEWAY III Laser Guided Bombs (2000 lb)
1,000 GBU-31B V3 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) (2000 lb)
1,300 CBU-105D/B Sensor Fuzed Weapons (SFW)/Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD)
50 CBU-105 Inert
1,000 MK-82 500lb General Purpose Bombs
6,000 MK-82 500lb Inert Training Bombs
2,000 MK-84 2000lb General Purpose Bombs
2,000 MK-84 2000lb Inert Training Bombs
200,000 20mm Cartridges
400,000 20mm Target Practice Cartridges
400 AGM-84 Block II HARPOON Missiles
600 AGM-88B HARM Missiles
169 Digital Electronic Warfare Systems (DEWS)
158 AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Targeting Systems
169 AN/AAS-42 Infrared Search and Track (IRST) Systems
10 DB-110 Reconnaissance Pods
462 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System Helmets
40 Remotely Operated Video Enhanced Receivers (ROVER)
80 Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Pods

Also included are the upgrade of the existing Royal Saudi Air Force (RSAF) fleet of seventy (70) F-15S multi-role fighters to the F-15SA configuration, the provision for CONUS-based fighter training operations for a twelve (12) F-15SA contingent, construction, refurbishments, and infrastructure improvements of several support facilities for the F-15SA in-Kingdom and/or CONUS operations, RR-188 Chaff, MJU-7/10 Flares, training munitions, Cartridge Actuated Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices, communication security, site surveys, trainers, simulators, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistical support services, and other related elements of logistical and program support.
The estimated cost is $29.432 billion.

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2010/Saudi_Arabia_10-43.pdf


A couple of big points:

1. All existing F-15S fighters are to be upgraded to F-15SA.

2. IRST Included

3. Harm and Harpoons included

 

[Grand Danois]

Busy day for the Saudis.(But why three notifications on Apaches???)

Saudi Arabia – AH-64D APACHE, UH-60M BLACKHAWK, AH-6i Light Attack, and MD-530F Light Turbine Helicopters
WASHINGTON, October 20, 2010 – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress today of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Saudi Arabia of:

36 AH-64D Block III APACHE Helicopters
72 UH-60M BLACKHAWK Helicopters
36 AH-6i Light Attack Helicopters
12 MD-530F Light Turbine Helicopters
243 T700-GE-701D Engines
40 Modernized Targeting Acquisition and Designation Systems/Pilot
Night Vision Sensors
20 AN/APG-78 Fire Control Radars with Radar Electronics Unit
20 AN/APR-48A Radar Frequency Interferometer
171 AN/APR-39 Radar Signal Detecting Sets
171 AN/AVR-2B Laser Warning Sets
171 AAR-57(V)3/5 Common Missile Warning Systems
318 Improved Countermeasures Dispensers
40 Wescam MX-15Di (AN/AAQ-35) Sight/Targeting Sensors
40 GAU-19/A 12.7mm (.50 caliber) Gatling Guns
108 Improved Helmet Display Sight Systems
52 30mm Automatic Weapons
18 Aircraft Ground Power Units
168 M240H Machine Guns
300 AN/AVS-9 Night Vision Goggles
421 M310 A1 Modernized Launchers
158 M299 HELLFIRE Longbow Missile Launchers
2,592 AGM-114R HELLFIRE II Missiles
1,229 AN/PRQ-7 Combat Survivor Evader Locators
4 BS-1 Enhanced Terminal Voice Switches
4 Digital Airport Surveillance Radars
4 Fixed-Base Precision Approach Radar
4 DoD Advanced Automation Service
4 Digital Voice Recording System

Also included are trainers, simulators, generators, munitions, design and construction, transportation, wheeled vehicles and organization equipment, tools and test equipment, communication equipment, Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) systems, GPS/INS, spare and repair parts, support equipment, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical documentation, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services, and other related elements of program support. The estimated cost is $25.6 billion.

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2010/Saudi_Arabia_10-44.pdf

 

[SpudmanWP]

Busy day for the Saudis.(But why three notifications on Apaches???)

Three customers within the SA government.

Saudi Arabian Royal Guard
http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2010/Saudi_Arabia_10-46.pdf

Royal Saudi Land Forces
http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2010/Saudi_Arabia_10-45.pdf

Saudi Arabian National Guard
http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2010/Saudi_Arabia_10-44.pdf

One thing of note, all the 70mm rockets ordered are of the laser guided version.. that's new.

 

[Grand Danois]

Three customers within the SA government.

Saudi Arabian Royal Guard
http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2010/Saudi_Arabia_10-46.pdf

Royal Saudi Land Forces
http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2010/Saudi_Arabia_10-45.pdf

Saudi Arabian National Guard
http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2010/Saudi_Arabia_10-44.pdf

One thing of note, all the 70mm rockets ordered are of the laser guided version.. that's new.

Ah, missed that. Btw, these are notifications to Congress for possible FMS, however if picked up (and absorbed into the KSA forces) this will a considerable increase in KSA offensive capability, i.e. large numbers of F-15 with sophisticated ground attack capability and the large amounts of air to ground ordinance,including 3,100 2k lbs GBU's, and SEAD missiles. (and where does this leave the prospects of future sales of Eurofighter?)

Further, the massive amount of anti-shipping missiles (or anti-shipping capable)? The -114R can take out patrol boats at stand-off ranges. 400 Harpoon and 2,592 -114R!!!

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Ah, missed that. Btw, these are notifications to Congress for possible FMS, however if picked up (and absorbed into the KSA forces) this will a considerable increase in KSA offensive capability, i.e. large numbers of F-15 with sophisticated ground attack capability and the large amounts of air to ground ordinance,including 3,100 2k lbs GBU's, and SEAD missiles. (and where does this leave the prospects of future sales of Eurofighter?)

Further, the massive amount of anti-shipping missiles (or anti-shipping capable)? The -114R can take out patrol boats at stand-off ranges. 400 Harpoon and 2,592 -114R!!!

This is no downgraded F-15. AESA + sniper + aim-9x + aim-120c7 makes it as good a air-sup export fighter as it gets minus stealth. DEWS is the latest EW offering by bae.

The ground atk includes 600 Harm + the usual JDAM suite. Other than JASSMs, SLAM and JSOWs + stealth, this is as good as it gets. More than enough weaponry to take out the entire Iranian AF and navy.

As mentioned previously, if Saudi turns rogue and manages to retain the capability, Israel's in trouble.

 

[fretburner]

I'm puzzled with the number of 2,000-lb bombs, HARMs, and especially the Harpoons. Who are they gearing up for? Iran? Certainly not Yemen or some other North African states?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

As mentioned previously, if Saudi turns rogue and manages to retain the capability, Israel's in trouble.

Since the demise of the Soviet Union any conventional military threat against Israel such as a de-Sauded Arabia would have to fight the IDF and the US military. Much like in Iran all that high tech military equipment would become a lot harder to operate without American support. Especially since it is all software driven and the US has loads of anti-customer-tamper and supplier-tamper-at-will software capability loaded into these products.

This is all about the Sauds being able to defend themselves against the Iranians. In the west we just have Ahmadinejad’s anti Israeli venom publicised but its just as strong against the Sauds and other resistors to the Iranian Shia ideology.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

I'm puzzled with the number of 2,000-lb bombs, HARMs, and especially the Harpoons. Who are they gearing up for? Iran? Certainly not Yemen or some other North African states?

Iran. 4,768 hellfires if one adds up the 3 atk helo notifications.

Why Iran? Cos they have very poor mobile sam capability. The harms will be useful in suppressing the fixed sam sites, if required.

500lb or 2000lb LGBs will shred any vessel crossing the gulf and the F-15 is a bomb truck.

What's strange is no mention of cfts.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

The F-15S order also includes AESA and JHMCS (front and back) for the legacy F-15S fleet as well. And keeping a squadron in the USA for some serious training - which is a very good thing for the RSAF. RSAF has had problems with fluctuating standards depending on variable investment in training. They have gone from being very good to very bad and back again. Hopefully the USA training presence will maintain high standards.

 

[fretburner]

Iran. 4,768 hellfires if one adds up the 3 atk helo notifications.

Why Iran? Cos they have very poor mobile sam capability. The harms will be useful in suppressing the fixed sam sites, if required.

500lb or 2000lb LGBs will shred any vessel crossing the gulf and the F-15 is a bomb truck.

What's strange is no mention of cfts.

I read somewhere the F-15E would have twice the payload of an F-16C/D, and so if that's true, that's a LOT of bombs

Iran doesn't have destroyers right? Maybe a few frigates? I thought they have mostly just patrol boats, not some ships that can potentially attack a neighboring state?

Also, can the Harpoons be configured for ground attack?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Also, can the Harpoons be configured for ground attack?

The Saud order is for AGM-84 Block IIs which can hit a geo-coordinate on land thanks to GPS. But I think they want it for anti-ship strike. 400 Harpoons could seriously dent any large scale amphibious attack over the Persian Gulf by Iran. Such an attack would likely use large numbers of coastal luggers (Dhows).

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

I read somewhere the F-15E would have twice the payload of an F-16C/D, and so if that's true, that's a LOT of bombs

Iran doesn't have destroyers right? Maybe a few frigates? I thought they have mostly just patrol boats, not some ships that can potentially attack a neighboring state?

2008 ONI report on Iranian navy.
http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/oni/iran-navy.pdf

Realised that the harms could also be targeted at the radars supporting the silkworm batteries along the coast. Might tackle a blockade of the straits of hormuz scenario.

 

[fretburner]

2008 ONI report on Iranian navy.
http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/oni/iran-navy.pdf

Realised that the harms could also be targeted at the radars supporting the silkworm batteries along the coast. Might tackle a blockade of the straits of hormuz scenario.

Hhhhmmmm... 3 Kilo-class submarines, some corvettes and a lot of smaller, fast-attack crafts...asymmetrical warfare. Doesn't seem like it's a Navy which can impose it's will on anyone but rather than slow down a little a good-sized invasion/landing force... And yet the Saudis are worried? Or maybe the Saudis are thinking, if it gets hostile, they're going to strike Iran's main ports first and cripple their coastal defense?

The Saud order is for AGM-84 Block IIs which can hit a geo-coordinate on land thanks to GPS. But I think they want it for anti-ship strike. 400 Harpoons could seriously dent any large scale amphibious attack over the Persian Gulf by Iran. Such an attack would likely use large numbers of coastal luggers (Dhows).

I did a lot more reading, and the SLAM-ER was based on the Harpoon. Those SLAM-ERs have a range of 140mi right? Nice.

These coastal luggers (from the PDF link above) these looks like merchant ships with NO self-defense systems? Maybe just some hand-held SAMs? Aren't Harpoons overkill for those types? I'm thinking why not just use those 2,000-lb bombs on them instead.

Or am I just too naive about naval warfare and too naive to think that the Iranian Navy can't put some serious hurting on the Saudis?

 

[JoeMcFriday]

2008 ONI report on Iranian navy.
http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/oni/iran-navy.pdf

Realised that the harms could also be targeted at the radars supporting the silkworm batteries along the coast. Might tackle a blockade of the straits of hormuz scenario.

I would think that might be closer to the truth than Abe's "dhows across the gulf" invasion scenario. [Mod Edit: Text deleted, pending Mod discussion on your behaviour. Post on facts with reason and cut out attempts at mockery, as it can go horrendously wrong. The discussion thus far has been entirely professional in conduct till your entry.]

Also, wouldn't Saudi air support of a "coalition" ground campaign in Iran be invaluable, politically and actually, to said "coalition"? We can bet the official line will be all those arms and upgrades are for the deterrence of said dhows though.
Cheers,
Mac

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I would think that might be closer to the truth than Abe's "dhows across the gulf" invasion scenario. [Mod Edit: Text deleted, pending Mod discussion on your behaviour. Post on facts with reason and cut out attempts at mockery, as it can go horrendously wrong. The discussion thus far has been entirely professional in conduct till your entry.]

Laugh as much as you want but this vision terrifies the Sauds. Since the Dhows tend to have engines it’s hardly Shakespearean. If the Iranians could land 150 Dhows on the Arabian coast then that’s 10,000 plus Revolutionary Guards in amongst the anti Saud Shia population and all the oil wells. That is the end of the House of Saud’s gravy train and its back to riding camels around the Nafud.

The Iranian Navy or naval arm of the Revolutionary Guards is heavily armed with fast small boats with infantry support weapons. They have used them for decades to out range and sneak in under the conventional weapons of surface combatants. The best measure for wiping them out is helicopters with guided missiles. The Iranian naval strategy is to use these asymmetric assets to close the Gulf to merchant shipping (ie most of the world’s oil flow) and launch amphibious strikes or raids.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

c

I did a lot more reading, and the SLAM-ER was based on the Harpoon. Those SLAM-ERs have a range of 140mi right? Nice.

You should have read the DSCA advisory. "AGM-84 Block II Harpoon" is quite specific. SLAM-ER is the "AGM-84H/K SLAM-ER" they would NOT make such an oversight...

These coastal luggers (from the PDF link above) these looks like merchant ships with NO self-defense systems? Maybe just some hand-held SAMs? Aren't Harpoons overkill for those types? I'm thinking why not just use those 2,000-lb bombs on them instead.

They would carry the MANPADS of the RevGds they are deploying. To destroy them with bombs would require multiple target engagements compared to the much quicker engagement of a single volley of four Harpoons per Eagle.

 

[fretburner]

c

You should have read the DSCA advisory. "AGM-84 Block II Harpoon" is quite specific. SLAM-ER is the "AGM-84H/K SLAM-ER" they would NOT make such an oversight...

Yes, I got that one. I'm just saying, that a "switch" perhaps later won't be too difficult. Although, the Israelis might protest such a move.

They would carry the MANPADS of the RevGds they are deploying. To destroy them with bombs would require multiple target engagements compared to the much quicker engagement of a single volley of four Harpoons per Eagle.

Come to think of it, a ship + the marines/army and equipment on it, that would be a LOT more "expensive" than 4 harpoons Makes sense.

4 Harpoons per eagle is a LOT of missiles. Reminds me of Red Storm Rising, haha!

 

[JoeMcFriday]

[Mod Edit: Text deleted, pending Mod discussion on your behaviour. Post on facts with reason and cut out attempts at mockery, as it can go horrendously wrong. The discussion thus far has been entirely professional in conduct till your entry.]

As to my "behaviour"....When compared to the personal insults traded in other threads [before mod intervention], I must ask myself what did I do wrong?

No offence was intended to anyone, especially to A. Gubler, whose posts I read here and on another forum with great interest. He has shown a good sense of humour elsewhere and I am amazed that my rather soft "Far Side" imagery has caused so much concern.

I did post on the facts of the discussion, I do not and have never have mocked or "slagged" a poster or his/her content [here or elsewhere]. In fact I would say I behave with more than adequate "dignity" in all I post. [Mod Edit: I've modified the Mod text to address your concern, in the interest of fairness to you.]

If it is wrong to once in a while try to share a little humor, then I have seriously misjudged Mr. Gubler and the members of this forum, for that error I apologise. For being a fan of "Far Side" imagery, I cannot but will endeavor to keep it myself in future so as not to de-stabilise sensitivities.[Mod Edit:The Mod team has been monitoring the increase in emotion laden behaviour and have attempted to keep the temperature cool so to speak. I can understand your attempt at humour but it did not come across as such. I'll give you the benefit the doubt, this time.]

Whilst it is clear to any observer that the Saudis have a very real concern about the security of their territory, the upgrades and purchases, as listed, seem to me to be an overkill for that particular scenario, thus the point of my post.

I felt no compulsion to extrapolate on an invasion scenario, or the defensive armament of any such invaders because it is not, IMO, the basis for the upgrades and purchases. It may well be the public justification but again I do not feel compelled to adopt this line of thought.

Are any of the above opinions, or the right to voice them or the form I voiced them in, unacceptable to to the mods? Do they lack dignity?[Mod Edit: Poor choice of words on my part and in future any concerns should be taken off-line and not in the thread, as this is a thread derail. After I reviewed my initial Mod text, I realised it was too harsh and was in the process of changing it when you posted.]
Mac

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Yes, I got that one. I'm just saying, that a "switch" perhaps later won't be too difficult. Although, the Israelis might protest such a move.

You can’t do that with these advisories. The whole point of a DSCA advisory is for Congress to approve the type of weapons being sold. To try and substitute an anti ship missile for a long range land attack missile is what this mechanism is designed to avoid! Congress would go ape and the US DoD would never play along with it. If the Sauds want SLAM-ER or JASSM or whatever they have to ask for it directly. Or just buy Storm Shadow of the UK. The Brits will even let you do a commercial contract so plenty of room for huge kickbacks. Those palaces in Granada don’t come for free you know…

PS I had no problem with what Mac had written. Clearly he was wrong but all those Dhows would be pretty funny… until they unloaded their passengers that is.

 

[Aussie Digger]

I did a lot more reading, and the SLAM-ER was based on the Harpoon. Those SLAM-ERs have a range of 140mi right? Nice.

These coastal luggers (from the PDF link above) these looks like merchant ships with NO self-defense systems? Maybe just some hand-held SAMs? Aren't Harpoons overkill for those types? I'm thinking why not just use those 2,000-lb bombs on them instead.

SLAM-ER can go a bit further than that. More like 180 miles...

Harpoon Block II gives you a standoff land attack capability out to about 130k's against a fixed target as well as it's anti-ship capability. If you can't get SLAM-ER or JASSM from the Americans, then I guess Harpoon Block II is seen as the next best thing...