is the russian hind helicopter any good?

d_taddei2

Banned Member
hi all, is the russian (mi-24) hind helicopter any good/use in todays modern battles? depsite being in service for 40yrs now and has had various improvements and upgrades, and probably the most used attack helicopter by various countries and still in service.
in my own opinion, i would say its biggest strength is the various roles/variants this helicopter has, from various weapons options, allowing to become a tank hunter/direct ifre support/anti infantry role/anti air role to name a few, awsell as medi vac, NBC sampling, photo recon/obeservation, troop transport.
the helicopter is NBC proof, armoured to with stand 20mm rounds, and has good payload/cargo weight. Robust and reliable and cheap to maintain and buy (considering price of other helicopters out there).
I believe it still has a place in todays modern battles (fully upgraded version) being versatile and various roles it can carry out, especially if the countries military budget is tight, i think the troop transport role would be ideal for delivering special forces while at the same time having decent offensive capabilities, and possibly another role could be VIP transport again good offensive capabilities, and alot smaller and faster than other helicopters used in the VIP role.
all in all a good all round helicopter.
the apache for instance is limited in roles anti tank/direct support/and (possibly)obeservation, and it excels at this as this is what it was designed for and only that.
so please let me know what your opinions are.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
the apache for instance is limited in roles anti tank/direct support/and (possibly)obeservation, and it excels at this as this is what it was designed for and only that.
I don't really know much about the Russian helo, but in regards to the Apache.

It's not limited in the AT role, I'm not really seeing how being able to carry 8 Hellfires maximum is in any way a hinderance and has the capacity to employ them at a world class level.

Neither is it limited in terms of "direct support", my impression from after reading "Apache Dawn" about British Apaches in Afghanistan is that in terms of CAS, it is excellent. Considering the munitions available to it, it doesn't lack the punch and depending on the skill of the pilots, it can easily be equal - and in plenty of cases, superiour - to fast air support.

It's also quite effective as a recce asset. One of it's interesting roles (again, from Apache Dawn) was being able to observe targets of interest from very long range but appearing to not be interested in them (If that makes sense), i.e it'd be following a patrol but still be observing potential Taliban mortermen from long range.

There's also plenty of combat footage on YouTube from Apache gun cameras if you want first hand experience on how effective an Apache is in the roles you listed it as being limited.

Of course, this does all depend on the technical capability of your opponent.
 

d_taddei2

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
i wasnt saying the apache wasnt good at what it does, the apache really only has 3 roles, what i was getting at was how the hind is a good all rounder, not as good as apache of course, but it can still pose a decent AT threat, also i wasnt talking about the halo, but the hind helicopter. just looking for peoples reviews on the hind, and is people still think it has a role in modern warfare considering its design is now 40yrs old and still in service. but thanks for the input.


I don't really know much about the Russian helo, but in regards to the Apache.

It's not limited in the AT role, I'm not really seeing how being able to carry 8 Hellfires maximum is in any way a hinderance and has the capacity to employ them at a world class level.

Neither is it limited in terms of "direct support", my impression from after reading "Apache Dawn" about British Apaches in Afghanistan is that in terms of CAS, it is excellent. Considering the munitions available to it, it doesn't lack the punch and depending on the skill of the pilots, it can easily be equal - and in plenty of cases, superiour - to fast air support.

It's also quite effective as a recce asset. One of it's interesting roles (again, from Apache Dawn) was being able to observe targets of interest from very long range but appearing to not be interested in them (If that makes sense), i.e it'd be following a patrol but still be observing potential Taliban mortermen from long range.

There's also plenty of combat footage on YouTube from Apache gun cameras if you want first hand experience on how effective an Apache is in the roles you listed it as being limited.

Of course, this does all depend on the technical capability of your opponent.
 

Gremlin29

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Hind is a mature weapons platform and certainly has it's place on many of todays battlefields. For a small country that doesn't have the resources to dedicate attack and lift platforms the Hind does fill a niche but there are other platforms that can do both jobs and at least excel on the utility side. As a lift platform it is very limited, if you've been in the cabin of one you would know what I mean because it's made for Munchkins.

I would say that the Hind's biggest assett is that it is prolific and in use all over the world.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well the Mi-35M variant has TIs a modern FCS, can make use of relatively sophisticated guided munitions, and has decent comm gear. On top of that it retained the benefits of the earlier Hinds, namely the incredibly heavy armor (for a helo) and the rather large payload. So it's quite relevant today, and fairly modern. Granted it lacks a radar of it's own, and is inferior to the Mi-28N. But it's also a lot less expensive.

So I would think that it's biggest asset is it's relative inexpensiveness.
 

Lostfleet

New Member
Maybe I am influenced a bit by Rambo III but I think psychologically it is a very effective weapon, it looks more menacing, it can directly attack you or bring people who can attack you and you need a MANPAD to take it down. ( or an arrow with a high explosive tip :) )

Gremlin29, it seems you have been inside one, have you flown with it as well? or is there anyone here who had a chance to have a ride at one?
 

Gremlin29

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I have not flown them but I've operated out of the same airfield and had the opportunity for a throrough walkaround, chat with the pilots and maintainers etc.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I have not flown them but I've operated out of the same airfield and had the opportunity for a throrough walkaround, chat with the pilots and maintainers etc.
Which variant were they using? What did they think of the FCS?
 

Gremlin29

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I've been around Iraqi and Polish Hinds, they looked like D models to me. Didn't talk about an FCS at all, just talked TTP's and handling/performance. What surprised me the most is that components have a shelf life like a carton of milk (obviously for years). Also the designers seemed to have a phobia about safety fasteners ie castelated nuts etc so it seems just about every nut and bolt is saftey wired. The maintainers were vocal about having to wear gloves lest you get your hands shredded from all that wire. Anyway I sure would have liked to get up in one but never even had a remote opportunity.

As an aside, I was at the book store last month and found a book about a Rhodesian/South African merc that flew MI24's in Africa. I was buying other stuff but will probably pick it up my next visit. The title is Gunship Ace, looked pretty darned interesting.
 

the road runner

Active Member
As an aside, I was at the book store last month and found a book about a Rhodesian/South African merc that flew MI24's in Africa. I was buying other stuff but will probably pick it up my next visit. The title is Gunship Ace, looked pretty darned interesting.
Think you mean Neil Nellis ? I remember the ABC doing a doc on him and found it on the tube.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnOTkGAgRos&feature=related"]EO MI 24 Sierra Leone - YouTube[/nomedia]
 

BDRebel

New Member
Hinds

Maybe I am influenced a bit by Rambo III but I think psychologically it is a very effective weapon, it looks more menacing, it can directly attack you or bring people who can attack you and you need a MANPAD to take it down. ( or an arrow with a high explosive tip :) )

Gremlin29, it seems you have been inside one, have you flown with it as well? or is there anyone here who had a chance to have a ride at one?
Would it really take a MANPAD to take it down? I mean if flying on low altitude, wouldn't a machine gun do the job?

I see one almost on a daily basis shooting down its missiles and machine gun on residential buildings and neighborhoods.
PS: I live in Syria
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Would it really take a MANPAD to take it down? I mean if flying on low altitude, wouldn't a machine gun do the job?

I see one almost on a daily basis shooting down its missiles and machine gun on residential buildings and neighborhoods.
PS: I live in Syria
MANPAD's were what really got the pilots nervous in the Soviet/Afghan war - as soon as Stingers and to a lesser extent Javelin/Blowpipe came into the theatre, everything had to either fly above 15K feet or under a 100 feet. Anything between tended to have an exciting and possibly short life. A solid burst from 12.7mm could do the job if it hit the internals - there's an old story that Afghan gunners were told to aim just under the star on each side of the Hind as there was a large oil cooler sited there but I don't know if that's correct or not.

The cockpit is heavily armoured and was supposed to be able to shrug off light cannon rounds.

Hind doesn't have all the redundancy features of say, Apache (which can fly for about twenty minutes with no gearbox oil, can hover on one engine in most load/environmental conditions) Additionally, the bulk of the models out there have a fully articulated rotor head, which basically means under a fast roll or turn, the rotors can fold around the body and you end up with a rotor bump which will get you into the ground very quickly.

Everything I'm saying here is second hand however - I have no direct experience!
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
A good example of the kind of damage the Apaches can take was the failed raid near Karbala in 2003. Despite being hit by multiple AA rounds, only one Apache was actually shot down, the rest, despite some taking heavy damage, made it back. One Apaches was penetrated in the cockpit area by a 7.62mm round, injuring one of the crew. The ambush site was near the Iraqi army's AA school - details are in 'Cobra 2' by Gordon and Trainor. Tactics used by the Iraqis were quite innovative and effective and included spotters with mobile phones, targeting Apaches near power lines to force them to fly higher, switching off the town's power grid to alert gunners to the presence of the Apaches and targeting the Hellfire and rockets pods to cause damage.

Admittedly, the Iraqis had luck on their side - the Apaches were hit in a sandstorm and had no artillery or MLRS support which had originally been requested - but never managed to repeat their success. I think the lesson is that if AA teams have early warning and are trained to exploit, surprise and the terrain to their advantage, any attack helicopter would be vulnerable. Whether or not, other attack helicopters like the Tiger, can take the amount of punishment the Apache can, remains to be seen.

This video has interesting footage of a Hip that was downed -

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjowqgS2uxM&feature=related"]Chechen Rebels Shoot Down Russian Plane, Helicopters - YouTube[/nomedia]


A helicopter being it by a SAM -

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBJ8e_IVOO0&feature=related"]Russian Helicopter shot down on 2002/08/08 - YouTube[/nomedia]


Guncam from a Pakistani Cobra -

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSQ2cdLJR-U"]AH-1F Cobra Gun Camera Footage - SWAT Operation against TALIBAN - YouTube[/nomedia]


A Hind promo video -

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAT-MEImJ9o"]Mi-24 "Hind" - YouTube[/nomedia]
 
hind damage

sadly the Mi-24 got well beat up in Afghanistan here is a translation of some of the Mi-24 variant losses..

However.. whoever said Mi24 and Rambo3 (shaking fist) that was no Mi-24 that was a Puma with some glued on wings.. :)

rambo puma: http://www.rotaryaction.com/images/rambo3c.jpg

puma puma: http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/imgs/aerospatiale-sa330-puma.jpg

hind: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-Mi-24_flown_by_ATEC_at_Roving_Sands_2000.jpg


--- below is a terrible google translation.. but you get the idea of types of damage Hinds have gone down from ---

Plas

- History of the Mi-24 damaged by fire in the ZU-23 July 1983: reports on the battle damage repair and the service in July 1983 is not such a case (in other words, it was not).

- The story of the death of Mi-24 in August, 1986 'from getting suspended in the bomb shell' in August 1986 loss of Mi-24s in the Air Force 40th Army was not at all.

- History of the Mi-24 damaged in July 1983 'to hit two RPG grenades': reports July 3, 1983 no such case (was not at all).

- Similarly there was no case of 'destruction of the main gearbox and Eva RPG' in December 1983.

- In November 1983 RPG of the 'hit the Mi-24, was killed during a forced landing operator' in November 1983 among the crews of the Mi-24 were no losses (even the very 'Memory Book' boys really did not bother to look through).

- April 1986 'ended up in a helicopter, several grenades, the pilot-operator was killed': the same crap, was not killed on the Mi-24 this month. Why you so like to bury the operators?

- '6 June 1987 as a result of contact with an RPG grenade fire occurred fuel tanks, the crew made an emergency landing and escaped ': the real event took place June 9, 1987 in the 50th osap, knocked his two starts MANPADS at an altitude of 500 m (as grenades do not fly high), sits down - no question there was a crew collar Rachko jumped with a parachute and landed in a minefield, but there were minor injuries.

- In November 1987 'after being hit shells' Oerlikon 'aft helicopter caught fire, the crew left the crumbling machine': there was no loss of the Mi-24 in November 1987. Oh, there's more savory items - 'blown traction control', of which there is not, by definition, the wiring in the tail of the rope.

- June 24, 1987 'under fire' Hispano-Suiza 'went to the Mi-24V-on GG Chekashina of the 181 th AFP. First, fuel tanks were punctured, and the fire started, then was broken and one engine caught fire, after which the fire swept the entire machine. If you try to make an emergency landing the helicopter crashed, the pilot and the pilot-operator killed ': zvinyayte in of the long, but fun fantasy dyuzhe top to bottom: On order: kunduzskogo helicopter from the 181st Regiment (which God knows where on the scene with a . Gudalekalay), he was one of spetsnaz EIA 239-D, no romance to the fire was not in sight, and helicopters - not one but two Mi-24 in the pair broke their own, without help dushmanskoy entered the narrow gorge, the reason - 'error in piloting technique. " Both were killed the commander, Gusev and Chekashkin (that was his name, not Chekashin), and both operators, again, alive. By the way, and who died in October 1980 'to Spanberg-on' is actually called Alexander Evgenichem Shpanbergerom, and to-the 'VP Mikhailov ', crashed January 17, 1986 - Viktor Ivanovich Mikhalev, and he died not because of' management failure ', and black and white that says -' error in the pilot's flight technique on takeoff. " Halturshiki you guys, even though the names of the victims bother to write correctly. Or was too busy with 'work in the secret Soviet archives'?

- October 19, 1987 "when the next attack in the saturated region of anti-aircraft guns, ZSU dodging the queue, the helicopter touched the ground and destroyed ': it was much easier -' foolhardiness and nestsiplinirovannost, the pilot performed the maneuver on the route at altitudes of less than 10m ', frolicked, flying out to explore the route number 2.

- Hero of the Soviet Union, VK Gainutdinov August 17, 1980 died on the Mi-24 Kozovoy his old friend (who flew with the 'ride') does not 'near Jalalabad' - it was in Kunduz, where he was the 181st Regiment, and 'about' - is about 350 miles to the north (as Moscow and St. Petersburg, almost). Geography within the 5 th grade should know - cab drivers out there will help.

- History of downed y Surubi 'Mi-24 of the 50 th osap October 30, 1987, which is' round the ZU-23 flashed below, got into the engine and brought him down, the car made an emergency landing and the crew came to his last fight ': God knows what he could do at Surubi, if left to cover boarding at the Kabul airport in IL-76, where he was shot down by MANPADS. As for 'last battle' - it, in fact it was at night, according to the documents' helicopter crashed and exploded, the crew was killed. " Was on board the prospect of Bekkerat and Art. L-T Popov from the group AB have just arrived in the Afghan and begged a ride 'for romance. " Curiously, borttehnika, dishes indicate that there is no extra folk on board in order to avoid unnecessary losses, did not surf the skies for nothing, stayed on the ground, something that God has saved him.

But all this is so, a prelude: a bit further on the author's text tells the trio about the same helicopter and crew, who now fire from the DSK was repulsed by the blade tail rotor, the helicopter crashed and killed the crew. Do not believe me? Everything just - Well no wonder guys 'did a great job,' and the crew ditched the poor as much as twice pordryad (': and broke three accordion at the funeral').

- Here is a curious passage: "In Soviet documents not recorded any case of shooting down the Mi-24 of RPG '. Why not? Such cases are recorded, and just 'in Soviet documents', with very specific descriptions of the damage, the dates and circumstances.

- The same authority and vumno talks about the invulnerability of the Mi-24 small arms: "No one helicopter was lost for this reason." Well, well: I did not know about it to Mr. Vaytehovich, lost with all hands May 27, 1982 (the reason: "The helicopter fired bullets of 7.62 mm, damaged engines and cabin crew, in a collision with the ground exploded '), or dead September 11, 1982, the crew of the Philippines ('shot at landing arms of 7.62 mm, because slain fell cable management'), there is still: The official figure of those very 'Soviet documents', which sort of like' authors' "- in 1985 to 25% of all losses Mi-24 had just on fire with weapons of 7.62 and 5.45 mm, the most vulnerable to it - the crew (39:41%), fuel system ( 28:30%) and control (29:31%). Bullet - a fool, it does not recognize the authority and banging, where he wants - there are a couple of cases where one bullet enough to kirdyk come.

- A great story about a direct hit Dukhovskoi 57-mm anti-aircraft guns in the Mi-24, after which he 'returned safely to base. " No comment:.

In general, how well the trio makarom authority is taken to argue, what and by whom he was hit by a helicopter? There's the rozmysly about the nature of combat damage from the ZU-23,'' from Oerlikon 'and' Hispano-Suiza ', and even from the U.S. 25-mm anti-aircraft guns. Well would seem that no one will ever have the spirits of those anti-aircraft guns had not seen, not to mention - if only one to fuck such a thing with trophies, all the stories about them - only on the conscience of bearded 'storytellers', which will tell for Yefim Afghanis everything you want to hear. Even if we can get somewhere in the spirits of anti-aircraft installation of this type, then a) where to get ammo for it (a children's issue - where you can find cartridges for 'Oerlikon' in the mountains?), B) where to get any spare parts (even the tape requires special equip machine, a hand-fuck out), and c) most importantly - how to carry it from place to place, because the same 'zushka' half a ton more weight, and it is not far from his hands drove off, not to mention - to pull on the mountain, or even loaded on to truck (another thing - in large groups, such as Massoud and the Taliban, but that's not us it was when these 'zushek' in Afghanistan is enough left.) So still - so different than the holes from various anti-aircraft guns to so authoritatively diagnosed? But, understood in the ruins, I see the stigma ostalyutsya - 'Made in Swiss' or there' Factory number 2 Name of Comrade. August Bebel's' right to determine - from which the shot. Either spirits and then sent a telegram to the report: So what about all those rozmysly 'means destruction' - vysokoumnaya is riding on the ears of the reader. In reality, spirits, except DShK and ZSU, no bother - to them, it is always and ammunition on hand, and thrust can be on his back, where it is necessary - even to the mountain, though in a caravan cover.
From the amazing tale of American antiaircraft gun caliber of 25 mm, 'on account of which are usually related to' helicopter Belyaev, Khabibulin, knocked February 16, 1988? Who relates to whom? The helicopter was on H = 15m, was something powerful right in the joint of the beam, she flew off, and Mi-24 went directly into the ground. For portrait and signs - most likely a grenade RPG, so said and squadron leader who flew to the place. No anti-aircraft guns, especially the U.S., no one has seen close to where they take up in the middle of the steppe, and the holes in the wreckage was not the nature of damage - explosive kick butt beams and fuselage. The shot they had seen and had krutnutsya away from the gunman, but then in the grenade over and hit - hit at point blank range with a slope close gorushki. In statistics, combat damage, recorded Engineering Department of the Air Staff of the 40th Air Force A and TurkVO, there is no word about the holes on some magical anti-aircraft guns, there is only a graph ', and ZSU DSK', short and clear ('RPG' as a cause of loss By the way, is there too). Generally you want to know - where were these three authors, the wonder-heroes, and what side they relate to aviation.
 

Nicezewy

New Member
Three out of three

Three Ugandan hinds take-off at Entebbe, destination Somali after refuelling in Kenya. Two loose contact and discovered to have crashed, one makes an emergency landing after a May Day, this on Mt Kenya (15000ft). Is this a good test for the Hind? What could cause such uniform failure ( they could not even deploy)? Is it altitude? Distance? What?

Nicezewy.
 

d_taddei2

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17
reply

well my honest opinion would be two things lack of training and poor maintainance. The russians used the hind in afghan war and speak to a few friends who are deployed there told me the the russian helicopters used by the new afghan army cope no problem with the altitude there however the lynx helicopter is no good so the british army havent been using them aparently a few had upgrades to cope but the upgrades where cancelled due to the army looking to replace the for the lynx with the lynx wildcat. many governments forget its not just buying the equipment but being to able to fincially maintain it and keep pilots/crew trainging upto date. if not accidents/failures are no doubt going to happen.



Three Ugandan hinds take-off at Entebbe, destination Somali after refuelling in Kenya. Two loose contact and discovered to have crashed, one makes an emergency landing after a May Day, this on Mt Kenya (15000ft). Is this a good test for the Hind? What could cause such uniform failure ( they could not even deploy)? Is it altitude? Distance? What?

Nicezewy.
 

Toptob

Active Member
First of all, I love the Hind! What defense enthusiast doesn't right?

The poster said: I believe it still has a place in todays modern battles

I think this statement needs some disassembling. What is a modern battle? And how would a combat system lose or gain a place in this? To be realistic, most defense organizations prepare for a great diversity of (modern?) combat situations and contingencies. To do this they select, operate and maintain equipment, train personnel and build a logistics system to keep it all running.

Whether a platform is still relevant relies on a great many different factors. In this thread the Mi-24/35 has already been established as an immensely versatile asset for a fighting force. In my opinion this versatility alone makes the Hind a very very valuable asset for any modern military force that operates it, regardless of the specific version they operate.

A quick gander at wikipedia shows the the Hind's impressive combat record. I know that the Hind was a crucial asset for the Sri Lankans against the LTTE, where they operated with quite unsophisticated Hinds in a very dangerous environment with lots of AAA and MANPADS. They suffered casualties, but the Hind crews used a lot of skill and even more guts and the Hind became one of the most appreciated assets in the latter part of the war.

Now it is debatable whether or not this is a modern combat situation. But I dare say it is, and the Hind has proven itself a useful and capable combat asset again and again. Ultimately though, whether or not an asset proves successful in a modern combat situation relies for a great part on the skill, guts and training of its crew. But also on its position within a military operation. How does it communicate, how is situational awareness built and shared between asstets, which specific missions is it required to perform and against which enemy?

To answer the posters question; if the Hind has a place in a modern battle. I'd have to say that it depends on who's fighting with it and who's fighting against it. But the same goes for any weapon system, and combat records from afghanistan show that the most beloved weapon with attach helicopter pilots is still the unguided rocket. So with it's great payload and overall ruggedness I think even the most basic Hinds will find useful service for many years to come.

On a side note I'm totally in love with those upgraded Hinds. Especially the upgraded Algerian Hinds, they just look super mean (guess it's kinda appropriate :eek:). I would like to see what would happen if the Israelis made a super duper Hind?!? It's such a big machine, they could hang every toy they ever made on it and still have space left for more... Exciting stuff I say!
 

Dodger67

Member
The South African modified Super Hind is an awesome piece of aircraft, well worth looking at.
If you want detail about it the company responsible is the ATE Group - Innovation, a powerful engine for development - ATE

Here is the brochure for the Hind upgrades - http://www.ate-group.com/medias/articles/Mi-24.pdf and a demonstration video - Insert title here

They offer a similar upgrade for the Mi-17 - http://www.ate-group.com/medias/articles/Mi-17.pdf and demo video - Insert title here

For lighter helicopters they offer a variety of items in different combinations - SAWS integration - ATE
 
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