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Royal New Zealand Air Force

This is a discussion on Royal New Zealand Air Force within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Markus40 If Raoul Island didnt have an active volcano this would make a good base for a ...


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Old August 6th, 2006   #76
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If Raoul Island didnt have an active volcano this would make a good base for a self deployment option. Its extremely doubtful based on the geology of the Island that the government would want to invest any base infrasture there. Niue is a far better option. BTW the range for the NH90 is 800km. The closest point departing NZ at a NNE direction is 1100 km.
yes I am a bit sceptical of this self deployment talk. Technically possible I am sure, but I can't see it as an operational reality from NZ. The vast percentage of deployments from NZ will be by ship. That doesn't mean that they can't deploy better within a theatre of ops though.
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Old August 6th, 2006   #77
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If Raoul Island didnt have an active volcano this would make a good base for a self deployment option. Its extremely doubtful based on the geology of the Island that the government would want to invest any base infrasture there. Niue is a far better option. BTW the range for the NH90 is 800km. The closest point departing NZ at a NNE direction is 1100 km.
NH-90 is slated at 1200km ferry range (additonal tanks, no payload)

http://www.nhindustries.com/site/FO/...=10012&lang=EN

1100km NNE = is this Norfolk Island? Yeah 1100km still too afr if you can only push out to 12ookm. IMHO these babies will not self-deploy often - the MRV will do the lion's share of this, with a the odd C-130 deploy. I guess it depends on what is meant by the MRV will carry the 4 x NH-90's "on the vehicle deck". If it's not at flight-deck level then loading / unloading could be damned difficult, esp. via LCM.

Granted there will be occassions only 1-2 will be deployed but guess we just gotta wait & see! Groan - doesn't 2010 seem so far way!?!
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Old August 6th, 2006   #78
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NH-90 is slated at 1200km ferry range (additonal tanks, no payload)

http://www.nhindustries.com/site/FO/...=10012&lang=EN

1100km NNE = is this Norfolk Island? Yeah 1100km still too afr if you can only push out to 12ookm. IMHO these babies will not self-deploy often - the MRV will do the lion's share of this, with a the odd C-130 deploy. I guess it depends on what is meant by the MRV will carry the 4 x NH-90's "on the vehicle deck". If it's not at flight-deck level then loading / unloading could be damned difficult, esp. via LCM.

Granted there will be occassions only 1-2 will be deployed but guess we just gotta wait & see! Groan - doesn't 2010 seem so far way!?!
I believe that the NH90s will have access to the flight deck from the same level.

Agree that 2010 is still a long time away and then think that the actual operational deployment date will probably be 2 years from that.

Still on the bright side Aussie and the Europeans will have been operating them for a while by that stage so it should make things smoother for the NZDF.
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Old August 6th, 2006   #79
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Originally Posted by Markus40
If Raoul Island didnt have an active volcano this would make a good base for a self deployment option. Its extremely doubtful based on the geology of the Island that the government would want to invest any base infrasture there. Niue is a far better option. BTW the range for the NH90 is 800km. The closest point departing NZ at a NNE direction is 1100 km.
Raoul might be an active volcanoe (well semi) but we have full time DOC staff based there so would'nt be a problem to have a fuel supply and landing area does'nt have to be a huge investment (or manned) parts of the island are OK and a reasonable distance from the craters. Strategically it is in the right place as a refueling stop and fits inside the 1200km ferry range of the NH90 (1084km, am assuming the 1200km incorporates std reserve). This allows a one stop deployment to our region of interest. The alternate route is quite time consuming (via Norfolk), if the aircraft was required in region quickly and you did'nt want to disassemble to put in the back of a C130 or wait for the MRV deployment it is certainly an option.
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Old August 7th, 2006   #80
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Has anyone actually heard what's been officially shortlisted for LUH?
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Old August 7th, 2006   #81
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All of us presumed with a NH90 order the LUH would be a Eurocopter EC-135, but there doesn't seem to be any link now. The LUH could be any light helicopter next year, although I would say the favorite is still the EC-135. There really isn't much difference in the light helicopter category in price, to me the bigget difference is appearance.
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Old August 8th, 2006   #82
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All of us presumed with a NH90 order the LUH would be a Eurocopter EC-135, but there doesn't seem to be any link now. The LUH could be any light helicopter next year, although I would say the favorite is still the EC-135. There really isn't much difference in the light helicopter category in price, to me the bigget difference is appearance.

I think that the A109 LUH is still a distinct possibility, plus the fact that having a wheeled U/C it would be easier to move around on the MRV if deployed alongside the NH90, apparently Augusta/Westland are very keen to have a presence in the NZ market at the moment, this would be a nice entry opportunity. Both the EC135 or A109 would be good aircraft.
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Old August 8th, 2006   #83
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I think that the A109 LUH is still a distinct possibility, plus the fact that having a wheeled U/C it would be easier to move around on the MRV if deployed alongside the NH90, apparently Augusta/Westland are very keen to have a presence in the NZ market at the moment, this would be a nice entry opportunity. Both the EC135 or A109 would be good aircraft.
It would depend on whether the powers that be consider the the LUH as a deployable asset or a stay at home one.

I hope it is the former.
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Old August 8th, 2006   #84
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It would depend on whether the powers that be consider the the LUH as a deployable asset or a stay at home one.

I hope it is the former.
Yes hopefully logic will prevail, Phil Goff actually sounds like a reasonable Defence Minister for a change, good on him for getting the 9 NH90 approved, I'm sure there was a degree of resistance at the final cost from other members of cabinet. The A109 LUH comes with a defensive measures outfit so would be nice adjunct to the NH90 in a deployed operation, as long as no one tells Helen it has offensive capabilities they should get it through OK its all in the presentation.
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Old August 8th, 2006   #85
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Yes hopefully logic will prevail, Phil Goff actually sounds like a reasonable Defence Minister for a change, good on him for getting the 9 NH90 approved, I'm sure there was a degree of resistance at the final cost from other members of cabinet. The A109 LUH comes with a defensive measures outfit so would be nice adjunct to the NH90 in a deployed operation, as long as no one tells Helen it has offensive capabilities they should get it through OK its all in the presentation.
I would see it more as an economic issue, if you are deployed in a ET situation and you have an outpost in the jungle that requires re-supply/medivac etc, do you use a large expensive to operate helo like a NH90 or a smaller LUH? Same with VIP etc.

It is a Helo that would allow for the NH90 to be tasked with a primary mission of transport of troops and equipment while being backed up by a cheaper to run LUH for general Liaison duties.
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Old August 8th, 2006   #86
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It would depend on whether the powers that be consider the the LUH as a deployable asset or a stay at home one.

I hope it is the former.
Yeah hope so too. Original plan (2002) was for a training chopper leased from & maintained by civvy contractor similar to 42Sqgn's B200's - guess that would have ruled out overseas deployments. However with the change to combined training/LU type that's probably not relevant anymore.

The LUH will hopefully also be deployable on new RNZN OPV's when necessary as the 5 SH-2G's won't cover RNZN Op's + maintenance & training requirements at peak operational periods.

Hey read in the latest Pacific Wings mag that Govt is looking at 4-6 Q200 for RNZAF to cover transport; SAR & inshore aerial maritime patrol - I guess not unlike the Aussie's 'CoastWatch' a/c. AirNZ apparently likely to get the maintenance work.

>>> Actually I'm very dubious about the accuracy of this report. Surely the Govt's not about to suddenly announce a significant a/c purchase a week after being accused of mis-management of the NH-90 purchase price!?! There's certainly been no 'talk' of such a purchase although it does fit the bill for one of the projects WAY down the LTDP list - yet the Govt's said that the NH-90's are the 'last of the major LTDP purchases' (need Goff's statements clarified - what about all the stuff still on the list?)

Anyone else got any comment about this report? Who's got their ear to the ground?
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Old August 9th, 2006   #87
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Yeah hope so too. Original plan (2002) was for a training chopper leased from & maintained by civvy contractor similar to 42Sqgn's B200's - guess that would have ruled out overseas deployments. However with the change to combined training/LU type that's probably not relevant anymore.

The LUH will hopefully also be deployable on new RNZN OPV's when necessary as the 5 SH-2G's won't cover RNZN Op's + maintenance & training requirements at peak operational periods.

Hey read in the latest Pacific Wings mag that Govt is looking at 4-6 Q200 for RNZAF to cover transport; SAR & inshore aerial maritime patrol - I guess not unlike the Aussie's 'CoastWatch' a/c. AirNZ apparently likely to get the maintenance work.

>>> Actually I'm very dubious about the accuracy of this report. Surely the Govt's not about to suddenly announce a significant a/c purchase a week after being accused of mis-management of the NH-90 purchase price!?! There's certainly been no 'talk' of such a purchase although it does fit the bill for one of the projects WAY down the LTDP list - yet the Govt's said that the NH-90's are the 'last of the major LTDP purchases' (need Goff's statements clarified - what about all the stuff still on the list?)

Anyone else got any comment about this report? Who's got their ear to the ground?
I thought that the govt got away with the annoucement of the NH90 cost very lightly, the opposition did'nt really run with it with any conviction (Winstons mozzie bite has gotten more airtime ! ), maybe by "major" they mean $500M or more Interesting that none of the local media has picked up on the 9 NH90 versus 8 declared by the defence ministers press release. EADS are saying 9 and I guess they should know how many they have sold.

Yes the LUH should make a good backup for the PP fleet if they get the right one (and numbers) It is slated to be used for aircrew training for the Sprites and the NH90 so should be capable of operating in the same environment as well so I would think a wheeled aircraft is a strong possibility which would push more towards the A109 rather than the EC135. I don't think anyone would really bulk at a $100M purchase for this item after the NH90 price revelation.
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Old August 9th, 2006   #88
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how many A109 or EC135 would 100 million get the airforce because if their still going to go with the original number there not going to be much use for them other than training

Last edited by stryker NZ; August 9th, 2006 at 05:04 AM.
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Old August 9th, 2006   #89
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how many A109 or EC135 would 100 million get the airforce because if their still going to go with the original number there not going to be much use for them other than training
A109 is about $NZ8M probably more if you get the full military LUH version so say $NZ10M so if you go with a similar logistics support ratio to the NH90 deal you end up with say 6 or 7 airframes. The EC135 is abit cheaper but not that much , you might get one more airframe in. I think with 7 airframes you would still get a decent utility function out of them, I can't imagine you would be training more than 4 or 5 new Helicopter pilots per year you should be easily able to achieve this with 2 dedicated airframes.
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Old August 10th, 2006   #90
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Looks like the NH90's are getting new homes to be pampered in :

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0608/S00130.htm

Will be a shame if Whenuapai is ever let go as an airfield, would hope that it can be retained as a joint RNZAF/Civilian facility of some sort.
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