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Royal New Zealand Air Force

This is a discussion on Royal New Zealand Air Force within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by stryker NZ what about Russian Helicopters how do they stack up against others in price and preformance. ...


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Old July 18th, 2006   #16
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Originally Posted by stryker NZ
what about Russian Helicopters how do they stack up against others in price and preformance.
Not sure they have anything new in that class, the H-92 was being touted at around the $US15M mark which works out quite abit cheaper than NH90 , plus it is a bigger aircraft, and I'm sure if we brought off Sikorsky then suddenly the US State department would clear the Skyhawk sale as well I guess you have to weigh up that and getting access to European agricultural markets

The fact that the Aussies went with the NH90 did it for us.

Last edited by KH-12; July 18th, 2006 at 04:52 PM.
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Old July 18th, 2006   #17
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Not sure they have anything new in that class, the H-92 was being touted at around the $US15M mark which works out quite abit cheaper than NH90 , plus it is a bigger aircraft, and I'm sure if we brought off Sikorsky then suddenly the US State department would clear the Skyhawk sale as well I guess you have to weigh up that and getting access to European agricultural markets

The fact that the Aussies went with the NH90 did it for us.
Actually guys, the NH90, is listed at around the same price as a H-92.
The RNZAF will get the same model as the European countries, the only mod will be radio systems.

I would be interested to see what the price includes, as it may include 20 years worth of spare parts as well!

At the end of the day the NH90 is flying, is in the the process of being delivered, and going by its international sales, including Australia, is a safe option for the NZDF.
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Old July 18th, 2006   #18
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Actually guys, the NH90, is listed at around the same price as a H-92.
The RNZAF will get the same model as the European countries, the only mod will be radio systems.

I would be interested to see what the price includes, as it may include 20 years worth of spare parts as well!

At the end of the day the NH90 is flying, is in the the process of being delivered, and going by its international sales, including Australia, is a safe option for the NZDF.
OK , I thought the NH90 was more expensive of the 2 aircraft, I guess the lack of C-130 compatibility would have put paid to the H-92 anyway, and I presume the MRV Hangar and associated aspects were designed around the NH90 and would be problematic with a larger helicopter. I think you would want lifetime support for the prices quoted
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Old July 18th, 2006   #19
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Here is an update from Phil Goff to the alegations of a "Budget Blowout", looks like there was a degree of truth there : Looks like 8 is the confirmed number of airframes.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/home/column_art...cname=Politics
Similar article here. I'm thinking that 6 looks highly likely. A far cry from 8-12 or whatever the original numbers were.
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Old July 18th, 2006   #20
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Similar article here. I'm thinking that 6 looks highly likely. A far cry from 8-12 or whatever the original numbers were.
I read the articles that 8 was the number for the NH90 and maybe 6 for the LUH, for more than $750M you would hope this was the case, I think the RNZAF are saying that 8 is the absolute minimum in order to fulfill their obligations adequately.
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Old July 18th, 2006   #21
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I read the articles that 8 was the number for the NH90 and maybe 6 for the LUH, for more than $750M you would hope this was the case, I think the RNZAF are saying that 8 is the absolute minimum in order to fulfill their obligations adequately.
If they want to be able to deploy 4, then they will need 8. I think all this dancing around the numbers is more to do with negotiation. Let NHI think that you may have to go with less and get a better price for 8.
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Old July 18th, 2006   #22
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If they want to be able to deploy 4, then they will need 8. I think all this dancing around the numbers is more to do with negotiation. Let NHI think that you may have to go with less and get a better price for 8.

We just got access back for our butter exports so maybe NHI got the price they were after (Interesting that Phil Goff is also trade minister )

I wonder if the RNZAF propose to conduct ab initio helicopter training on the new LUH or if they subcontract that phase out to a civilian R22 operator, would probably be a cheaper option, then transition to the 2 engine LUH post solo.
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Old July 18th, 2006   #23
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Originally Posted by stryker NZ
exactly New Zealand cant afford to buy new designs its just too risky if something goes wrong. we should go with something thats proven and reliable. I was talking to an airforce pilot recently and he said he dosnt care what type of helicopter they got as long as it was an improvement on what they have.

what about Russian Helicopters how do they stack up against others in price and preformance.
With NZ, they don't have a big enough budget for any form of cost blowout, where as Aus and many Euro countries can afford it and to have it fixed so other purchasers know what they are getting into.
Look at how we always manage to cop some form of blowout, if NZ got this much, they'd just submit to buying a few dinghys with a machine gun as its navy and a bird with a pistol as its Air force.
For some reason, the western world will continue to never buy a russian anything, i think caviar and Vodka even come from Poland. With the russians, besides reliability and lack of spare parts, theres that whole East Vs West thing still goin.
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Old July 20th, 2006   #24
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Without blowing my own trumpet for tooo long, didnt i say so before?????!!!!




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Australia bought one aircraft, not two different types. Maybe New Zealand has to buy more spare parts up front for two different types of helicopters.

$70 million x 34 aircraft is $2.380 billion, not $2.0 billion.

In the next decade New Zealand will be faced with acquiring several C-130s and P-3s replacements. They are going to cost much much more.

The $110 million lease over 10 years of 28 cream puff F-16s look better and better as time passes.

If Ms Clark wanted to save bundles of money, maybe she should have kept the air combat force and sold the transport and patrol aircraft instead.
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Old July 20th, 2006   #25
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I dont think Phil Goff would be shooting his mouth off when he does say in the " National Business Review" that the Defense Forces will get their 8 NH90s as specified. I think he means what he says and i wouldnt doubt him.

8 is operating at the very minimum levels for our service requirements and i would assume in years to come that there might be a few more purchased either off Australia or directly out of the long term Defense budget over the next 10 years. Will see.

I personally think the government has a good deal and a good helo as a result and will cover all our requirements in the forces. The extra $200 Million for parts and the fall in the NZ Dollar is fact of life and really to be honest for the length of time the government has had out of the Iroqouis and the years they operated them beyond their useful life extension, im sure the extra will make up for when the Iroqouis should have been replaced many years ago.
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Old July 21st, 2006   #26
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I agree 8 could be seen as a number that may not stretch RNZAF personnel resources regarding the introduction of a helicopter that is rather more sophisticated than the one it is replacing. More could then be purchased in the medium term. Any way I would have thought NZ may look at a LUH that can perform all of the domestic civil assistance roles of UH-1H, plus training and even a little spec force support. This would allow NH-90 to be used for overseas ops.
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Old July 21st, 2006   #27
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Its my opinion the only add on expensive NH90 helicopters will be replacement helicopters for those that have been lost. More than likely any future orders for add on helicopters beyond replacement helicopters may be more EC-135 utility or EC-635 gunships, helicopters that costs significantly less. Of course, this depends whether our assumptions are correct that the EC-135 training helicopters are the ones currently being acquired.

Looking ahead, the next biggest expense item on the LTDP will be the Anzac class frigate upgrades, an expense a few years off. New Zealand should have a period of up to ten years before replacements for the Orions and Hercules will have to be ordered, which will be more expensive than this helicopter order. It would be wise for the New Zealand Defence Forces to spread out their equipment acquisitions, so they don't become obsolescent all at the same time.
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Old July 22nd, 2006   #28
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Well NZ pretty much replaced their army all at once:
105 NZLAV's IFV/APC
321 LOV's
24 Javelin anti armour
next the artillary and troop transport will be replaced.

7 new ships have been ordered in a small space of time. The frigates, orions and the hercs will probably be replaced together. I would say NZ will get 6-8 A400m's and 6-8 long range patrol. The RNZAF will be so much more capable when they replace the orions and hercs.
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Old July 23rd, 2006   #29
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Originally Posted by NZLAV
Well NZ pretty much replaced their army all at once:
105 NZLAV's IFV/APC
321 LOV's
24 Javelin anti armour
next the artillary and troop transport will be replaced.

7 new ships have been ordered in a small space of time. The frigates, orions and the hercs will probably be replaced together. I would say NZ will get 6-8 A400m's and 6-8 long range patrol. The RNZAF will be so much more capable when they replace the orions and hercs.
While I'm not an expert, the 135 is much smaller than the NH90, so should be capable of transportation in a Herc. I would imagine the mil version, the 635, would have to be transportable. The dimensions look about right for a C-13o, although I think some disassembly of the rotor head would be needed.
The Oriions and the Hercs, won't be replaced before 2018-2020, and will be a serious issue for the RNZAF as they will need to be replaced around the same time. IMO don't look for more than 3-4 P8s (if at all) they will be very expensive. Maybe some manned and some unmanned patrol aircraft.

I agree the A400 would be ideal as a replacement. Given that to get anywhere is a major logistical exercise for NZ, the more recourses here the better.
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Old July 23rd, 2006   #30
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While I'm not an expert, the 135 is much smaller than the NH90, so should be capable of transportation in a Herc. I would imagine the mil version, the 635, would have to be transportable. The dimensions look about right for a C-13o, although I think some disassembly of the rotor head would be needed.
The Oriions and the Hercs, won't be replaced before 2018-2020, and will be a serious issue for the RNZAF as they will need to be replaced around the same time. IMO don't look for more than 3-4 P8s (if at all) they will be very expensive. Maybe some manned and some unmanned patrol aircraft.

I agree the A400 would be ideal as a replacement. Given that to get anywhere is a major logistical exercise for NZ, the more recourses here the better.
I guess with a P8 you would hope that the sensors( AN/APS-137B(V)5) are a whole lot better than the P3 so that you can cover a much larger area of ocean more quickly, although the electro-optical systems are probably not that much more advanced than the latest P3K update. The radar should be a reasonable step-up from the Israeli Elta system going in the P3K's.

I would imagine that 4 P8's will cost around the 1 Billion dollar mark depending on systems config, luckily the airframe is a known commodity and there are some economies of scale already there.

I would imagine that the the Orions will be used at least until 2020 with the last aircraft from the latest update not coming online until 2010, likewise with the C-130 program. Would'nt be surprised if 2025 was a more realistic replacement date, by which time the airframes will be 60 years old
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