Go Back   Defense Technology & Military Forum > Global Defense & Military > Air Force & Aviation
Forgot Password? Join Us! Its's free!

Defense News
Land, Air & Naval Forces






Military Photos
Latest Military Pictures

Miramar_14_MV-22_1621a.JPG

Miramar_14_MV-22_1726a.JPG

Miramar_14_MV-22_0074a1.JPG

Miramar_14_FA-18C_0409a.JPG
Defense Reports
Aerospace & Defence







Recent Photos - DefenceTalk Military Gallery





Royal New Zealand Air Force

This is a discussion on Royal New Zealand Air Force within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by MrConservative 2011 Defence Brief Contents [Ministry of Defence NZ] Try the above. That should link to the ...


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 8 votes, 4.00 average.
Old February 10th, 2012   #1501
Defense Professional / Analyst
Colonel
ngatimozart's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 1,551
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrConservative View Post
2011 Defence Brief Contents [Ministry of Defence NZ]

Try the above. That should link to the pdf. If not just go to the ministry website.
Cool thanks. It works much appreciated.
ngatimozart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012   #1502
Defense Enthusiast
Master Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 397
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todjaeger View Post
The FMS request that I came across was in May 2007, with the first C-130J delivery in December 2010.

When I looked at several other C-130J orders placed by different countries, most of the orders seemed to take about 4 - 5 years between order placement and initial delivery. Some more, some less, depending on a number of other variables.

-Cheers
All NZ defence aqquisitions seem to take an age to come to fruition, most people hear about them whilst in and then by the time they are operational have already retired, our govt just seems to flog platforms until they are dead and then wait till the last minute to replace, classic penny pinchers.

Another 10 years added to the C130s after years of delays? no matter how much new wireing, flatscreens or cup holders you put into the things they are still at the end of the day old aircraft. If aircraft where supposed to be flown forever then everyone would do it, however other countries see the eventual savings(and safety) in newer less maintanence/cost/time intensive platforms, catch up NZ. It seems every time we replace AC they then go into museums, what is that saying?
RegR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012   #1503
Defense Professional / Analyst
Colonel
ngatimozart's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 1,551
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RegR View Post
All NZ defence aqquisitions seem to take an age to come to fruition, most people hear about them whilst in and then by the time they are operational have already retired, our govt just seems to flog platforms until they are dead and then wait till the last minute to replace, classic penny pinchers.

Another 10 years added to the C130s after years of delays? no matter how much new wireing, flatscreens or cup holders you put into the things they are still at the end of the day old aircraft. If aircraft where supposed to be flown forever then everyone would do it, however other countries see the eventual savings(and safety) in newer less maintanence/cost/time intensive platforms, catch up NZ. It seems every time we replace AC they then go into museums, what is that saying?
Its like this mate, our polies don't get carted around every day in a C130 or whatever so they don't care really much. However when it comes to updating ministerial conveyances like BMWs then the money can be found real quick and the purchasing process is like greased lightning. There is an old Bristol Frightener at Omaka which just may be capable of getting over the boundary fence (I wouldn't bet on it). It's still in RNZAF colours I think. Maybe if we loaded all 120 polies in it and flew them to Canberra in it they just might get the message. 120 will fit in but there'd be no room for seating.
ngatimozart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012   #1504
Deaf talker?
General
Todjaeger's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 3,098
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RegR View Post
All NZ defence aqquisitions seem to take an age to come to fruition, most people hear about them whilst in and then by the time they are operational have already retired, our govt just seems to flog platforms until they are dead and then wait till the last minute to replace, classic penny pinchers.

Another 10 years added to the C130s after years of delays? no matter how much new wireing, flatscreens or cup holders you put into the things they are still at the end of the day old aircraft. If aircraft where supposed to be flown forever then everyone would do it, however other countries see the eventual savings(and safety) in newer less maintanence/cost/time intensive platforms, catch up NZ. It seems every time we replace AC they then go into museums, what is that saying?
Most defence acquisitions take time, nothing new about that at all.

The key part of the information that I was looking for with regards to ordering and delivery of the C-130J was to determine how much time would likely be needed, and completely outside of NZ's control, once an order was placed.

The general cycle seems fairly similar for most new major defence acquisition programmes. The first third of the programme timeframe is spent determining the requirements for the programme in terms of capability, cost, etc. The next third then typically involves RFP, RFI and RFT which then leads to a design competition to meet the programme requirements. Once the design has been selected, then orders are placed, production commences, testing, training and IOC.

From my perspective, the real bugbears revolving around the RNZAF's long-term airlift replacement is that a further ten years has been "bought" following the Herc SLEP, but half that time is likely to be eaten getting the replacement built and delivered. Given that the paper which will examine NZDF airlift capabilities and future wants/needs (and thus what the replacement airlifter programme requirements are...) has been deferred approximately three years, that is potentially only leaving the RNZAF two years to look at what options are available, what best meets programme req's, then negotiate and place an order. That or have Hercs start retiring without having a replacement.

As for the entire Herc SLEP... That is the sort of thing which really makes me question whether those controlling some of these decisions have NFI what they are doing. ~NZD$50 mil. per aircraft was spent to upgrade them and keep them in service another decade. IIRC, for approximately 25% more the RNZAF could instead have gotten 4 new C-130J Hercs which could potentially serve 30+ years.

-Cheers
________________
"I'm doing the same thing I do every night, Pinky..." comment from one lab mouse to another.
Todjaeger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012   #1505
Super Moderator
Lieutenant Colonel
MrConservative's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Behind a Desk
Posts: 1,073
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todjaeger View Post
The general cycle seems fairly similar for most new major defence acquisition programmes. The first third of the programme timeframe is spent determining the requirements for the programme in terms of capability, cost, etc. The next third then typically involves RFP, RFI and RFT which then leads to a design competition to meet the programme requirements. Once the design has been selected, then orders are placed, production commences, testing, training and IOC.

From my perspective, the real bugbears revolving around the RNZAF's long-term airlift replacement is that a further ten years has been "bought" following the Herc SLEP, but half that time is likely to be eaten getting the replacement built and delivered. Given that the paper which will examine NZDF airlift capabilities and future wants/needs (and thus what the replacement airlifter programme requirements are...) has been deferred approximately three years, that is potentially only leaving the RNZAF two years to look at what options are available, what best meets programme req's, then negotiate and place an order. That or have Hercs start retiring without having a replacement.

As for the entire Herc SLEP... That is the sort of thing which really makes me question whether those controlling some of these decisions have NFI what they are doing.

-Cheers
The decision to do the C-130H SLEP was controlled by the then Department of PM & Cabinet. Options were the SLEP or the C-130J buy-in with the RAFF. The then CDF Adamson and CAS Hamilton were ignored and sidelined throughout this process as they were considered politically unfriendly with Beehive power-brokers. They wanted the buy-in with the RAAF C-130J proposal. So yes the decision makers did indeed have NFI. The then government at this time was seriously considering killing off the P-3s and the frigates following its 2001 hatchet job.

The first stage of the Airlift Replacement has started. The public paperwork will appear in 2015 as the Air Mobility Review from which the RFP, RFI and RFT will flow. Maybe the preferred specs will end up with the NZ Govt wanting something like a multi-engine prop larger than a C-130J yet smaller than a C-17 that can cover both tactical and strategic tasking, has +400kts cruise, short T & L, rough field capability, 4500km@30t range, ability to lift two A109LUH or a NH-90 or NZLAV and up to nine standard pallets. I would at a guess say that 4 airframes would be in order. Around the same time there just maybe a concurrent order of 4 smaller 2nd tier transport aircraft similar to the former C.1 Andovers, that could see project supplier synergies looked upon favorably. A currency payment that looks long term to depreciate viz the NZ dollar could well be a further determining factor.
MrConservative is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2012   #1506
Defense Enthusiast
Master Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 397
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todjaeger View Post
Most defence acquisitions take time, nothing new about that at all.

The key part of the information that I was looking for with regards to ordering and delivery of the C-130J was to determine how much time would likely be needed, and completely outside of NZ's control, once an order was placed.

The general cycle seems fairly similar for most new major defence acquisition programmes. The first third of the programme timeframe is spent determining the requirements for the programme in terms of capability, cost, etc. The next third then typically involves RFP, RFI and RFT which then leads to a design competition to meet the programme requirements. Once the design has been selected, then orders are placed, production commences, testing, training and IOC.

From my perspective, the real bugbears revolving around the RNZAF's long-term airlift replacement is that a further ten years has been "bought" following the Herc SLEP, but half that time is likely to be eaten getting the replacement built and delivered. Given that the paper which will examine NZDF airlift capabilities and future wants/needs (and thus what the replacement airlifter programme requirements are...) has been deferred approximately three years, that is potentially only leaving the RNZAF two years to look at what options are available, what best meets programme req's, then negotiate and place an order. That or have Hercs start retiring without having a replacement.

As for the entire Herc SLEP... That is the sort of thing which really makes me question whether those controlling some of these decisions have NFI what they are doing. ~NZD$50 mil. per aircraft was spent to upgrade them and keep them in service another decade. IIRC, for approximately 25% more the RNZAF could instead have gotten 4 new C-130J Hercs which could potentially serve 30+ years.

-Cheers
Yes I understand aqquisitions mostly take a long time however NZs generally take an extremely long time compared to other nations. The good thing about time is that it is a constant so even when you get something brand spanking new you have a rough idea of when it will need replaceing. If something for example has a life of type of 40 years then you do not wait until the 45th year to remember that they are old and then begin the arduos replacement hunt(or try life extending) which again adds years in itself to the everextending timeline.
And now we are waiting, again, until 2015 for probably yet another 'paper' and then will start the thinking process all over. Govt just needs to realise that sometimes biting the bullet now will set you up for the future.
RegR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2012   #1507
Defense Professional / Analyst
Colonel
ngatimozart's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 1,551
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todjaeger View Post
As for the entire Herc SLEP... That is the sort of thing which really makes me question whether those controlling some of these decisions have NFI what they are doing. ~NZD$50 mil. per aircraft was spent to upgrade them and keep them in service another decade. IIRC, for approximately 25% more the RNZAF could instead have gotten 4 new C-130J Hercs which could potentially serve 30+ years.

-Cheers
Concur. It's the manadrins and bean counters in treasury along with the political appartchiks of the Clark Labour Government who made the decision about the SLEP. I don't think the following goverment could have pulled out of the program even if they wanted too, because the contract was awarded on 14/12/2004. IIRC was with a US contractor and there were problemswith the contractor which eventually involved the NZG taking over the contract. Uncle Helen & co would have avoided all possible ways of buying US equipment and there was no alternative to the C130 unless they went Russian which would not have gone down with the service chiefs. Plus they had a myopic view of the forces. That govt and amongrel by the name of Locke did more harm to NZDF in nine years than any other incident since 1945.
ngatimozart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2012   #1508
Senior Member
Colonel
t68's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NSW
Posts: 1,335
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RegR View Post
All NZ defence aqquisitions seem to take an age to come to fruition, most people hear about them whilst in and then by the time they are operational have already retired, our govt just seems to flog platforms until they are dead and then wait till the last minute to replace, classic penny pinchers.

Another 10 years added to the C130s after years of delays? no matter how much new wireing, flatscreens or cup holders you put into the things they are still at the end of the day old aircraft. If aircraft where supposed to be flown forever then everyone would do it, however other countries see the eventual savings(and safety) in newer less maintanence/cost/time intensive platforms, catch up NZ. It seems every time we replace AC they then go into museums, what is that saying?
Nothing wrong with old aircraft as long it still economically viable, B52 stratofortress has been around since 1952 with production ending in1962; more modern strategic bombers have been built since, there is no stopping the BUFF. Talk is that USAF will keep flying till around 2040s not a bad innings hey.

But in saying that I agree that the Hercules fleet in the RNZAF should have been updated with the RAAF order of C130J aircraft.
t68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2012   #1509
Defense Professional / Analyst
Colonel
ngatimozart's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 1,551
Threads:
Rumour has it that another batch of NH90s arrived last Tuesday. I can't remember if it was mentioned here or not, but does anyone know if the RNZAF NH90TTHs have the automatic rotor folding capability?
ngatimozart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2012   #1510
Super Moderator
Lieutenant Colonel
MrConservative's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Behind a Desk
Posts: 1,073
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ngatimozart View Post
Rumour has it that another batch of NH90s arrived last Tuesday. I can't remember if it was mentioned here or not, but does anyone know if the RNZAF NH90TTHs have the automatic rotor folding capability?
The original specs were for manual folding rotor capability but not electric folding. The OZ version have installed the electric iirc.
MrConservative is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 12th, 2012   #1511
Defense Professional / Analyst
Colonel
ngatimozart's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 1,551
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrConservative View Post
The original specs were for manual folding rotor capability but not electric folding. The OZ version have installed the electric iirc.
Thanks Mr C. Much appreciated. NM
ngatimozart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2012   #1512
Defense Professional / Analyst
Colonel
ngatimozart's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 1,551
Threads:
The first two NH90s have taken their first flights in kiwi skies. According to the media story they were test flights to make sure everything was working as its supposed to. The Ministry of Defence wasn't saying anything about the results of the flights due to "commercial sensitivity". New helicopters take to the air after long flight | Stuff.co.nz

At the Singapore Airshow Lockheed have launched the C130XJ which is low cost version of the aircraft. That will appeal to our lot Same engines and avionics as the C130J and will be offered as the lengthened 30 if requested. Lockheed claim the cost reduction is significant. Lockheed launches new lower cost version of the C-130J Super Hercules | Aviation & Air Force News at DefenceTalk

Last edited by ngatimozart; February 15th, 2012 at 10:09 PM. Reason: typos
ngatimozart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2012   #1513
Just a bloke
Colonel
No Avatar
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,522
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ngatimozart View Post
At the Singapore Airshow Lockheed have launched the C130XJ which is low cost version of the aircraft. That will appeal to our lot Same engines and avionics as the C130J and will be offered as the lengthened 30 if requested. Lockheed claim the cost reduction is significant. Lockheed launches new lower cost version of the C-130J Super Hercules | Aviation & Air Force News at DefenceTalk
It'll be a fair bit cheaper, unless you want to fly it somewhere where there's a threat you might be shot at. I can't think of too many combat zones that have a lower air threat than Afghanistan, yet the stuff they are ripping out of the C-130J to provide the cost savings are exactly what is needed to fly in even that environment, let alone anything "stiffer".
ADMk2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2012   #1514
Defense Professional / Analyst
Colonel
ngatimozart's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 1,551
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADMk2 View Post
It'll be a fair bit cheaper, unless you want to fly it somewhere where there's a threat you might be shot at. I can't think of too many combat zones that have a lower air threat than Afghanistan, yet the stuff they are ripping out of the C-130J to provide the cost savings are exactly what is needed to fly in even that environment, let alone anything "stiffer".
Yep you , I and our Air Force know that, but our kiwi polies & bean counters will just see the cheap price tag and stop there. I received an email from the Minister of Defence yesterday in reply to one I sent a few weeks back with some questions, and he says that they will be starting the Air Transport Assessment this year in order to inform the 2015 Defence White Paper.

Last edited by ngatimozart; February 16th, 2012 at 05:11 AM. Reason: typos
ngatimozart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 16th, 2012   #1515
Defense Enthusiast
Captain
No Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 827
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADMk2 View Post
It'll be a fair bit cheaper, unless you want to fly it somewhere where there's a threat you might be shot at.
Hmm, sense an opportunity here, wonder if NZDF could play its cards right (with said pollies and bean counters) and for example, pick up some 8 airframes - 4x basic XJ's (for routine low/non-threat NZ/Pacific taskings) and 4x "XJ" airframes fully fitted with the counter-measures and cargo handling equipment (for these higher threat/coalition taskings)? Might suit the requirements also to support the joint amphibious task force depending on whether deployed locally or further afield.

The 4 latter "fitted-with" types could probably be the minimum number required to support two aircraft in theatre with 2 others on standby/training/maintenance etc)?

With the C130-XJ, the requirement for a CN235/295/C-27J complimentary type may be reduced (and somewhat fortuitous in regards to the C-27J now having a less positive future). Perhaps all that could be needed are 3-4 cheaper CN235 types for small load taskings etc?

NM: good news re NZG bringing that review ahead!
recce.k1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:56 AM.