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Old September 25th, 2015   #61
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The common link with the Merlin and Upholder was Chrétien, a useless POS. While he was trying to make his mind to purchase the Upholders they were being left without proper mothballing as the RN expected the deal to proceed quickly. Then the RCN failed to properly evaluate their condition (perhaps intentionally fearing an exit from the sub business). As for the Merlins, he cancelled the deal out of spite for Mulroney and we paid a huge cancellation penalty. Twenty two years later we have 6 CH-148s out of 28 orders and they still don't meet specifications. The EH101 was the only right choice and still is.
The RCN knew about the sub's condition, it wasn't a secret (the Aussies were offered them around the same time and they went running away as fast as possible). The RCN knows that procurement money is a different pot than repair and sustainment, and that the subs needed modified anyways for Canadian service (Mk-48 for example).
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Old September 25th, 2015   #62
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The RCN knew about the sub's condition, it wasn't a secret (the Aussies were offered them around the same time and they went running away as fast as possible). The RCN knows that procurement money is a different pot than repair and sustainment, and that the subs needed modified anyways for Canadian service (Mk-48 for example).
More to the point - I was at the event where RADM Chris Barrie made it pretty clear as to why we wouldn't buy the Upholders as an interim (while Collins was being sorted) or as a second sub squadron (to have and to hold, to keep and to cherish after Collins was sorted, and to keep the flame alive about a 2 fleet navy, east and west coast) - and there were snr Canadian Naval staff in that room.
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Old September 28th, 2015   #63
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How large is the Canadian defence budget?
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Old September 29th, 2015   #64
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How large is the Canadian defence budget?
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Old September 29th, 2015   #65
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yes, the sub contractor has to be approved - and it would be approval from the US uniformed PO Mgr as well as State Dept

(State are the key here as ITARs involved - and I've seen primes who were cleared for ITARs lose access when they became sub contractors)

Huge IP firewall and security implications irrespective of whether they were a prime prev - it doesn't provide advantage in the re-assessment
Defence sales/involvement between the US and Canada is a bit different than how it is for other nations AFAIK. IIRC Canadian defence purchases do not have to get approval from State and/or Congress prior to proceeding. Per 22 USC §2778(f)(3). Control of arms exports and imports, Canada can be granted an exemption to the licensing requirements with respect to defence items.
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Old September 29th, 2015   #66
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Defence sales/involvement between the US and Canada is a bit different than how it is for other nations AFAIK. IIRC Canadian defence purchases do not have to get approval from State and/or Congress prior to proceeding. Per 22 USC §2778(f)(3). Control of arms exports and imports, Canada can be granted an exemption to the licensing requirements with respect to defence items.
UK and Aust had their ITARs constraints elevated as well so as to bypass some of the normal hurdles - but I was of the impression that State were still the safety net.

It's been a while since my last ITARs training event.
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Old September 29th, 2015   #67
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UK and Aust had their ITARs constraints elevated as well so as to bypass some of the normal hurdles - but I was of the impression that State were still the safety net.

It's been a while since my last ITARs training event.
I would need to go through 22 USC to pick out all the bit relevant to Canada, but the gist of what I recall is that Canada was/is already pre-approved to purchase almost any kit they would want. Certain things which are blocked for sale due to US law and/or Int'l treaty (like the F-22, WMD, and certain types of missiles, etc.) are not available, but otherwise much of the US gear is no problem.

Not sure what the rules are regarding Canada disposing of US sourced kit, though I suspect that does need approvals from State.
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Old September 29th, 2015   #68
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Not sure what the rules are regarding Canada disposing of US sourced kit, though I suspect that does need approvals from State.
one of the longest passenger events in my working life has to be sit in on an ITARs refreshers session. 7 hrs of numb bum
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Old September 30th, 2015   #69
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Old September 30th, 2015   #70
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Would it be to far fetched, that one of the Canadian guys in here actually knew the answer?
So why the need for such a shit attitude? I werent impolite.
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Old September 30th, 2015   #71
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Would it be to far fetched, that one of the Canadian guys in here actually knew the answer?
So why the need for such a shit attitude? I werent impolite.
If you can't understand that this forum is for a mature debate which pre-supposes some effort and basic initiative by our members then maybe two things are apparent; first, your poor attitude is one of impoliteness and secondly, maybe your contributions belong elsewhere.
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Old September 30th, 2015   #72
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Would it be to far fetched, that one of the Canadian guys in here actually knew the answer?
So why the need for such a shit attitude? I werent impolite.
All you need is google and five seconds, why bother the Canadian members? Try to take more responsibility for finding the answers to basic questions before you start posting one liners. No big deal, it's just the expectation here.
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Old September 30th, 2015   #73
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Would it be to far fetched, that one of the Canadian guys in here actually knew the answer?
So why the need for such a shit attitude? I werent impolite.
Don't think he was impolite to such a basic question. Of more importance to the budget is what percentage of the funding is allocated to each service and percentage of funding Personel and equipment serviceability, does replacement kit come out of a fixed defence budget or a supplement etc etc which with research will give you general idea how it works
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Old September 30th, 2015   #74
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If you Google enough you will find an approximation of what Canada has budgeted on defence over the last several years. The problem is you have to dig harder to find out that billions that were budgeted were in fact not spent due to deferrals, procurement foul-ups, or actual cancellations. In any event, the 1.0+ of GDP is nowhere enough to fund the huge replacement costs needed for replacing all sorts of kit needed by all the services from 2025 onwards. The amounts budgeted for earlier requirements (FWSAR, fighters, and AOPS) likely are not enough which means more needs to be allocated or the number of units will be decreased (can you guess which option the pollies will go for?).

Time to return this thread to RCAF issues.
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Old October 1st, 2015   #75
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It's been a while since my last ITARs training event.
2 within a fortnight plus a briefing document to help us remember. I hate ITAR briefs.
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