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This is a discussion on Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; So Italy is punished from going from 131 to 90 aircraft with a reduction of 300 wing orders (~25%) and ...


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Old September 25th, 2015   #46
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So Italy is punished from going from 131 to 90 aircraft with a reduction of 300 wing orders (~25%) and Canada could leave the program and still maintain workshare?
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Old September 25th, 2015   #47
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This artickle seems to suggest the Canuks are getting a pass of sorts:

Kendall: Canadian Suppliers Will Continue To Support F-35

Shoulda Known Here is the Retort:

Industry group contradicts Pentagon chief, saying F-35 loss would hurt Canada - The Globe and Mail
It seems that way but I am sure Canadian suppliers are expecting significant blowback if Canada fails to choose the F-35. I bet new non-partner countries buying the jet are expecting some work. Might as well take away from a non buyer.
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Old September 25th, 2015   #48
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It seems that way but I am sure Canadian suppliers are expecting significant blowback if Canada fails to choose the F-35. I bet new non-partner countries buying the jet are expecting some work. Might as well take away from a non buyer.
the reality is that every buyer expects offsets of some sort - and that means workshare

certainly the asian tiger approach will be about that - and lockmart can only cut the cake so much

at some stage realpolitik has to kick in and fleet purchase gets tied to workshare - other partners will be mightily irritated if workshare opportunities are compromised by a small buyer. there was already a high degree of frustration from some partners that canada had cornered disproportionate workshare

I've attended industry briefs where the above issues were white hot touch points for some of the partners
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Old September 25th, 2015   #49
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So Italy is punished from going from 131 to 90 aircraft with a reduction of 300 wing orders (~25%) and Canada could leave the program and still maintain workshare?
IMO, there will consequences for Canadian industry if Canada opts out, regardless of what that POS Turdeau JR. says.
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Old September 25th, 2015   #50
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the reality is that every buyer expects offsets of some sort - and that means workshare

certainly the asian tiger approach will be about that - and lockmart can only cut the cake so much

at some stage realpolitik has to kick in and fleet purchase gets tied to workshare - other partners will be mightily irritated if workshare opportunities are compromised by a small buyer. there was already a high degree of frustration from some partners that canada had cornered disproportionate workshare

I've attended industry briefs where the above issues were white hot touch points for some of the partners
I can well imagine. I think Canada's workshare got to the point it is because Canadian aerospace industry got off to a fast start before all the inertia here started against the JSF program. Even 65 jets will still result in some decent overall workshare. The other issue is what will the total export number be? Given the instability at the moment, new unplanned orders could be significant and add to the overall workshare pie.

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Old September 25th, 2015   #51
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The other issue is what will the total export number be? Given the instability at the moment, new unplanned orders could be significant and add to the overall workshare pie.
for all the hand wringing by the anti-jsf fans about LM not reaching their planned partner numbers and thus the end of the JSF world as we know it is near - I've never come across any sense of urgency from lockmart people or principle partners about the build changes being fatal to the program

in fact, lockmart seem pretty confident that the eventual buyers outside of the 1st tranche partners will more than keep sustained build rates at an effective manufacturing rhythm - the bottom line being that its here to stay - and as a result you see that the wiser "unbelievers" have reduced their personal noise levels so as to not hilight the fact that all their ranting and raving is rapidly coming to nothing
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Old September 25th, 2015   #52
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- and as a result you see that the wiser "unbelievers" have reduced their personal noise levels so as to not hilight the fact that all their ranting and raving is rapidly coming to nothing
I wish the noise levels from unbelievers here in Canada could be reduced faster so the the RCAF and Canadian industry don't end up with the short stick. In any event, the Canadian election result on Oct 19 will indicate the F-35's future in Canada....maybe.
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Old September 25th, 2015   #53
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John, what's the voting system in Canada? Is it a first past the post system where basically the winner takes all on election night? Or is it some form of proportional representation system where the chances of an outright victory on election where there is a low probability of an outright victory and parties have to horse trade to form a coalition type government?
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Old September 25th, 2015   #54
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John, what's the voting system in Canada? Is it a first past the post system where basically the winner takes all on election night? Or is it some form of proportional representation system where the chances of an outright victory on election where there is a low probability of an outright victory and parties have to horse trade to form a coalition type government?

It is a first past the post system. Currently the Cons, Libs, and the NDP have equal support percentages. In the last election, the Conservatives won many seats due to a combination of rejection of the Liberals overall but a significant number seats were won because Liberal voters opted to vote NDP to punish the Liberals and the left wing vote split allowed the Cons to win these seats.

Support for the NDP seems to be falling off a bit and going to the Liberals. I still think a minority government is likely which means further indecision.
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Old September 25th, 2015   #55
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IMO, there will consequences for Canadian industry if Canada opts out, regardless of what that POS Turdeau JR. says.
That's what I mean, a 40 airframe reduction lead to a 25% drop in wing workshare, so I find it hard to believe that Canada could back out of the deal and expect to be just as involved as it would otherwise be.
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Old September 25th, 2015   #56
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While they will lose out on all "Workshare" related contracts (controled by JPO), they could still be a SubContractor to another Partner company who still has Workshare (contract controlled by that company).

They may be confused on the distinction.
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Old September 25th, 2015   #57
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While they will lose out on all "Workshare" related contracts (controled by JPO), they could still be a SubContractor to another Partner company who still has Workshare (contract controlled by that company).

They may be confused on the distinction.
That is true, especially for US contractors as they can subcontract to Canadian component suppliers and take advantage of the weak Canadian dollar. Being next door and speaking the same language helps as well.
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Old September 25th, 2015   #58
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That is true, especially for US contractors as they can subcontract to Canadian component suppliers and take advantage of the weak Canadian dollar. Being next door and speaking the same language helps as well.
change in sub contractor levels means a direct impact on what meetings they get to attend - and the sub contractors can't send proxys on behalf of the primes.
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Old September 25th, 2015   #59
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change in sub contractor levels means a direct impact on what meetings they get to attend - and the sub contractors can't send proxys on behalf of the primes.

Does the JPO dictate who any prime contractor can subcontract to (aside from security issues of course).
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Old September 25th, 2015   #60
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Does the JPO dictate who any prime contractor can subcontract to (aside from security issues of course).
yes, the sub contractor has to be approved - and it would be approval from the US uniformed PO Mgr as well as State Dept

(State are the key here as ITARs involved - and I've seen primes who were cleared for ITARs lose access when they became sub contractors)

Huge IP firewall and security implications irrespective of whether they were a prime prev - it doesn't provide advantage in the re-assessment
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