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This is a discussion on Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; They are going to SLEP the Hornets to keep them around till "something" replaces them. There is no economic or ...


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Old September 24th, 2015   #31
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They are going to SLEP the Hornets to keep them around till "something" replaces them. There is no economic or tactical need or logic to "forever" having to support two different fighter types.

If you had bought Super Hornets 10 years ago, then they would be 20 years old when (assuming F-35) Canada get's its last F-35 . Then, every 20 or so years you will have to re-compete and replace half your fighter fleet when it reaches ~40ish years.

2005 - Buy 12-24 Sh
2025 - Get F-35s
2045 - Replace your SHs
2065 - Replace your F-35s
2085 - Replace whatever replaced your SHs
2105 - Replace whatever replaced your F-35s
etc, etc, etc

The only way to stop that is to do a 20 year SLEP (that's a massive SLEP) to either the SH or F-35 so that its replacement covers both types. Then again, somebody will make the same argument then that you are making now and it starts all over again.

btw, with the announced $500 mil SLEP there will be no fighter gap.

Last edited by SpudmanWP; September 24th, 2015 at 10:39 AM. Reason: wrong word
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Old September 24th, 2015   #32
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Yet another delay for the FWSAR project. A change in government will see further delays.

Fixed Wing Search and Rescue project faces another delay | Ottawa Citizen
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Old September 24th, 2015   #33
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They are going to SLEP the Hornets to keep them around till "something" replaces them. There is no economic or tactical need or logic to "forever" having to support two different fighter types.

If you had bought Super Hornets 10 years ago, then they would be 20 years old when (assuming) Canada get's its last F-35. Then, every 20 or so years you will have to re-compete and replace half your fighter fleet when it reaches ~40ish years.

2005 - Buy 12-24 Sh
2025 - Get F-35s
2045 - Replace your SHs
2065 - Replace your F-35s
2085 - Replace whatever replaced your SHs
2105 - Replace whatever replaced your F-35s
etc, etc, etc

They only way to stop that is to do a 20 year SLEP to either the SH or F-35 so that its replacement covers both types. Then again, somebody will make the same argument then that you are making now and it starts all over again.
The issue boils down to political incompetence by all parties. It would be easier for these fools to agree that shit smells like roses than agreeing on what fighter to purchase.
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Old September 24th, 2015   #34
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On that we can agree
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Old September 24th, 2015   #35
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The issue boils down to political incompetence by all parties. It would be easier for these fools to agree that shit smells like roses than agreeing on what fighter to purchase.
John, would you mind if you can explain a bit why Canadian politicians are so against/indecisive about buying F-35?

Do they prefer European stuff (buy British syndrome?)? F-35 too expensive? Local industrial participation too low? Or they are just politicians?
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Old September 24th, 2015   #36
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Do they prefer European stuff (buy British syndrome?)?
That's not a thing since the Upholder debacle.

If they want national participation then the F-35 is the biggest game in town for them, Typhoon, Rafale & SH don't hold a candle to it from Canada's perspective.
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Old September 24th, 2015   #37
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That's not a thing since the Upholder debacle..
Indeed - & the sorry saga of the EH101 purchase & cancellation, & the cocked-up eventual buying of a US alternative doesn't exactly suggest a pro-British bias. If there was one, they'd have stuck with EH101, & have had Merlins in service for years.
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Old September 24th, 2015   #38
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Indeed - & the sorry saga of the EH101 purchase & cancellation, & the cocked-up eventual buying of a US alternative doesn't exactly suggest a pro-British bias. If there was one, they'd have stuck with EH101, & have had Merlins in service for years.
Exactly, then there's the outright dismissal of the Type 26 a couple of years ago in the name of protecting Canadian skills.

Load of bluster IMO, they'll either be getting F-35 or sticking it out with what they have.
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Old September 24th, 2015   #39
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John, would you mind if you can explain a bit why Canadian politicians are so against/indecisive about buying F-35?

Do they prefer European stuff (buy British syndrome?)? F-35 too expensive? Local industrial participation too low? Or they are just politicians?
The short answer is the Canadian electorate for the most part are totally mis-informed about the F-35 and continue to accept all the obsolete negative info about the jet (including way out of date pricing for the F-35 and false pricing on some alternatives). The anti-defence media (CBC, Toronto Star "Harper haters) continue to spoon BS to citizens who gladly eat this shit up hoping the money goes to their particular desires. The pollies, gutless as they are, are more than happy to defer or cancel important decisions for political advantage. This is not just a F-35 problem, it is a military procurement failure on all fronts.

From an economic POV, Canadian companies have done about 600-700 million on the JSF program and could manage another 10+ billion if 2500-3000 are built. A failure to procure F-35s by Canada puts that business at risk. Any other choice would not come close to this amount.
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Old September 24th, 2015   #40
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Indeed - & the sorry saga of the EH101 purchase & cancellation, & the cocked-up eventual buying of a US alternative doesn't exactly suggest a pro-British bias. If there was one, they'd have stuck with EH101, & have had Merlins in service for years.
The common link with the Merlin and Upholder was Chrétien, a useless POS. While he was trying to make his mind to purchase the Upholders they were being left without proper mothballing as the RN expected the deal to proceed quickly. Then the RCN failed to properly evaluate their condition (perhaps intentionally fearing an exit from the sub business). As for the Merlins, he cancelled the deal out of spite for Mulroney and we paid a huge cancellation penalty. Twenty two years later we have 6 CH-148s out of 28 orders and they still don't meet specifications. The EH101 was the only right choice and still is.
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Old September 24th, 2015   #41
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The short answer is the Canadian electorate for the most part are totally mis-informed about the F-35 and continue to accept all the obsolete negative info about the jet (including way out of date pricing for the F-35 and false pricing on some alternatives). The anti-defence media (CBC, Toronto Star "Harper haters) continue to spoon BS to citizens who gladly eat this shit up hoping the money goes to their particular desires. The pollies, gutless as they are, are more than happy to defer or cancel important decisions for political advantage. This is not just a F-35 problem, it is a military procurement failure on all fronts.

From an economic POV, Canadian companies have done about 600-700 million on the JSF program and could manage another 10+ billion if 2500-3000 are built. A failure to procure F-35s by Canada puts that business at risk. Any other choice would not come close to this amount.
So in a nutshell they are happy to reap the benifits not order aircraft and pass the problem down the line.
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Old September 24th, 2015   #42
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So in a nutshell they are happy to reap the benifits not order aircraft and pass the problem down the line.
Exactly right!
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Old September 24th, 2015   #43
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For the strategic circamstances what would the bare minimum number of aircraft purchased, do you need a one for one considering the advances in simulation.
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Old September 24th, 2015   #44
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For the strategic circamstances what would the bare minimum number of aircraft purchased, do you need a one for one considering the advances in simulation.
Canada bought 138 Hornets of which 80 are still more or less operation. The replacement number was 75 F-35s which was reduced to 65 solely for budget reasons. Certainly PGMs and simulators have made a smaller fleet possible but 65 may be low considering our geography. I beleive Australia is committed to 75 and likely will try to get to 100 later on.
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Old September 24th, 2015   #45
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The short answer is the Canadian electorate for the most part are totally mis-informed about the F-35 and continue to accept all the obsolete negative info about the jet (including way out of date pricing for the F-35 and false pricing on some alternatives). The anti-defence media (CBC, Toronto Star "Harper haters) continue to spoon BS to citizens who gladly eat this shit up hoping the money goes to their particular desires. The pollies, gutless as they are, are more than happy to defer or cancel important decisions for political advantage. This is not just a F-35 problem, it is a military procurement failure on all fronts.

From an economic POV, Canadian companies have done about 600-700 million on the JSF program and could manage another 10+ billion if 2500-3000 are built. A failure to procure F-35s by Canada puts that business at risk. Any other choice would not come close to this amount.
This artickle seems to suggest the Canuks are getting a pass of sorts:

Kendall: Canadian Suppliers Will Continue To Support F-35

Shoulda Known Here is the Retort:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle26533227/

Last edited by SpazSinbad; September 24th, 2015 at 11:52 PM. Reason: Extra URL Retort
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