Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates
This is a discussion on Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by AGRA
Sorry it’s not a fact because it’s not happening. The RAAF is still on target for ...
Sorry it’s not a fact because it’s not happening. The RAAF is still on target for an initial F-35 training capability followed by a fully operational F-35 Block III (all singing all dancing) squadron in 2015. The Phase 2A/2B Air 6000 order (~72) will be in the early expensive stage. Australia looks like negotiating a MYP for this order to push down cost on averages. This has to go to Govt. approval next financial year but even if there is a change in Govt. is unlikely to be messed with.
So many times in the past we've looked to squeeze a few dollars from fleet rejuvenation and it’s ended in disaster. The acquisition path now followed by the CDE/DMO is all about maintaining top level capability through a transition. The weapon system being replaced will be at its most capable the moment it is turned off and the new one wheeled in. If we delay F-35 then the C/Ds, despite the HUG, will start to get dated and 24 E/F B2s won’t be enough to carry ALL the weight of the air combat capability.
Thanks for the clarification. It certainly sounds from what you say that the path being followed by the RAAF is the best one possible in the circumstances. It's also reassuring that it is unlikely to suffer a hiccup if there is a change of government.
Why would the USAF be interested in Super Hornets? I can understand the Canucks and Swiss and even the Marine Corp but not the USAF. Anyone got any ideas?
Hooroo
You guys really need to read Mark's article more closely. It does not infer the USAF will get Supers, rather that the USAF would have preferred Australia get F-15s or hold out longer until the JSFs were ready, rather than buy a Navy airplane.
Having seen the transcript from where Mark got his "same range as an F-111" comment from, it appears the sub-editors got their grubby hands all over it before it went to print. The brief basically said an F/A-18F accompanied by an F/A-18E buddy tanker could be extended out beyond the range of an unrefuelled F-111.
Cheers
Magoo
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The decision to buy the Super Hornet has led to renewed interest in the F/A-18F Block 2 aircraft by Canada, Switzerland and even the US Air Force, which would have preferred Australia to choose the F-15E Strike Eagle, Mr Gower said.
Quote:
You guys really need to read Mark's article more closely. It does not infer the USAF will get Supers, rather that the USAF would have preferred Australia get F-15s or hold out longer until the JSFs were ready, rather than buy a Navy airplane.
To me the top paragraph clearly states that the USAF is showing renewed interest along with Canada and Switzerland. I don't see how you can read it any other way, if the true meaning has been lost then either the editor is to blame or the paragraph is poorly written or both. I read the article closely enough and have a good enough grasp of the Queens English to understand what was written.
Carrier training for our pilots Font Size: Decrease Increase Print Page: Print Mark Dodd | August 21, 2007
AUSTRALIAN fighter pilots will be taught to land on aircraft carriers for the first time in 25 years.
A select handful of Royal Australian Air Force instructors will be chosen for lessons on how to land on US aircraft carriers flying the new F/A-18F Super Hornet fighter.
The plan, which could eventually lead to participation in US carrier-based operations, marks the first time Australian pilots have flown off aircraft carriers since the retirement of the navy's flagship carrier HMAS Melbourne in 1982.
The carrier training underscores the rapidly evolving military partnership between the US and Australian military.
Senior US navy sources said the relationship was likely to involve an increasing convergence in training and tactics between the RAAF's fast jets and their US equivalent.
RAAF Flight Lieutenant John Haly will become the first Australian air force pilot to become carrier-qualified when he attempts his toughest flying skills test later this year.
Asked to clarify RAAF Super Hornet training, Defence Minister Brendan Nelson said yesterday: "There is no plan for RAAF pilots to undertake training in aircraft carrier landings."
The official government line contradicts briefings provided to The Australian by senior US military officials at Lemoore Naval Air Station in California that other RAAF "Top Gun" instructor pilots are expected to follow Flight Lieutenant Haly and be provided with carrier training.
Full-scale Super Hornet training for RAAF air crew starts in the US in 2009.
"We've got him (Flight Lieutenant Haly) driving on the right side of the road so we figure he's trainable," said Lemoore-based Commander Art "Kato" Delacruz, executive officer of Strike Fighter Squadron VFA-122.
The RAAF is buying 24 F/A-18F Block-2 Super Hornets for $6 billion to maintain its air combat capability between the phasing out of the ageing F-111 fleet in 2010 and the introduction of the delayed fifth-generation F-35 Joint Strike Fighter in 2013.
Despite criticism of the deal in Australia, US Navy aviators say the the Block-2 Super Hornet is the world's most capable multi-role combat aircraft.
Australia is acquiring a virtually identical aircraft to the one currently operated by the US Navy, with the first four aircraft scheduled for delivery in early 2010 and final delivery in late 2011.
Boeing, the manufacturer of the Super Hornet, says the Australian version will be equipped with enough technology for the aircraft to remain a formidable asset for the next 20 years.
During a briefing at the weekend, Flight Lieutenant Haly said it took only five hours' flying time for an F/A-18C pilot trained on a "Classic Hornet" to become familiar with the new Super Hornet. Acquiring the tactical skills to take advantage of the jet's massive capabilities would take considerably longer, he said.
Now this is an interesting development, from todays Australian newspaper. Seems like a natural extension of the pilot exchange program to me.
Does anyone know exactly how many fast jet pilots the RAAF has on exchange currently? I am not sure of the claim that Haly will be the first Australian carrier trained pilot since 1982 though. I have heard of others.
does anyone know what the latest thinking is on the RAAF ordering a couple of F 35 B's to operate from the navy's new amphibious vessels?
please excuse me if someone already asked this.. i'm a new member..
Have a look at Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates . There has been a lot of discussion re the F-35B and the LHDs.
It should be noted that whilst there are many enthusiastic advocates (e.g. Navy League and yours truly) for the RAAF to acquire a squadron of F-35Bs and develop the capability to provide detachments to operate from the LHDs, there is no official ADF requirement for this capability and I am unaware of any public campaign by anyone from within the RAN or RAAF to acquire the F-35B. At the same time I expect that the option will certainly be studied closely by the ADF. If the F-35B does end up in the RAAF I expect that it will be the fourth squadron so no decision is needed for some time.
The reported plan to train RAAF pilots to fly Super Hornets from USN carriers is interesting in this regard as it could be a way of developing RAAF interest in operating aircraft at sea. My belief is that there is a place for an RAAF squadron to train like a USMC squadron. If our SH squadron is able to actually deploy from an American carrier on an occasional basis it could pave the way for future F-35B operations from the LHDs, particularly if a third LHD is acquired. At this stage, however, the Defence Minister’s statement that, "There is no plan for RAAF pilots to undertake training in aircraft carrier landings," suggests that the deployment of an FA-18F squadron from a US carrier is a long way away at this stage. Still the plan mentioned in Mark Dodd’s report could be a starting point.
Have a look at Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates . There has been a lot of discussion re the F-35B and the LHDs.
It should be noted that whilst there are many enthusiastic advocates (e.g. Navy League and yours truly) for the RAAF to acquire a squadron of F-35Bs and develop the capability to provide detachments to operate from the LHDs, there is no official ADF requirement for this capability and I am unaware of any public campaign by anyone from within the RAN or RAAF to acquire the F-35B. At the same time I expect that the option will certainly be studied closely by the ADF. If the F-35B does end up in the RAAF I expect that it will be the fourth squadron so no decision is needed for some time.
The reported plan to train RAAF pilots to fly Super Hornets from USN carriers is interesting in this regard as it could be a way of developing RAAF interest in operating aircraft at sea. My belief is that there is a place for an RAAF squadron to train like a USMC squadron. If our SH squadron is able to actually deploy from an American carrier on an occasional basis it could pave the way for future F-35B operations from the LHDs, particularly if a third LHD is acquired. At this stage, however, the Defence Minister’s statement that, "There is no plan for RAAF pilots to undertake training in aircraft carrier landings," suggests that the deployment of an FA-18F squadron from a US carrier is a long way away at this stage. Still the plan mentioned in Mark Dodd’s report could be a starting point.
Tasman Quote:
Originally Posted by Galrahn
Simple question.
Does the F/A-18 Super Hornets Australia is buying have a tailhook?
They are identical to USN Super Hornets.
Tas
They won't be "identical", as RAAF Hornets don't operate from carriers they have navaids, such as ILS, fitted for instrument approaches to airfields. I believe the RAAF Super Hornets will have a similar fitout. These systems aren't fitted to USN and USMC Hornets, can cause problems when your Tacan beacon is offset from the airfield and you need to do an instrument approach.
And yes they will have tailhooks.
The reported plan to train RAAF pilots to fly Super Hornets from USN carriers is interesting in this regard as it could be a way of developing RAAF interest in operating aircraft at sea. My belief is that there is a place for an RAAF squadron to train like a USMC squadron. If our SH squadron is able to actually deploy from an American carrier on an occasional basis it could pave the way for future F-35B operations from the LHDs, particularly if a third LHD is acquired. At this stage, however, the Defence Minister’s statement that, "There is no plan for RAAF pilots to undertake training in aircraft carrier landings," suggests that the deployment of an FA-18F squadron from a US carrier is a long way away at this stage. Still the plan mentioned in Mark Dodd’s report could be a starting point
Hi Tas,
I thought that this plan was interesting, but the lack of response to my post had me baffled. Glad I am not on my own here.
I have heard of at least 5 RAAF pilots who were carrier qualified in the mid eighties. They were all on exchange to Navy or Marine units. One of note is the current Acaust, AVM Binskin. He had bit of a head start though as he was a Midshipman on HMAS Melbourne and flew A-4s before the old girl paid off. Another was WCDR Fox former CO of 75SQN who was sadly killed in a mid air collision near Tindal in the late 80's.
I think the "plan" as such will only involve pilots on exchange to USN or USMC units. I am sure the Americans will want to get the most out of the RAAF jocks, they are extremely competent and experienced aviators and not having them available for combat missions off carriers is a waste. I don't ever see a squadron of RAAF super Hornets embarking on a US carrier though. Many reasons for this, not least is the fact that the A/C will be slightly different. The carrier approach systems will be removed (see my last post). As for the catapult bar, lets hope the RAAF learns from previous experience and leaves it well alone this time.
The article has spurred plenty of interest in defence circles, old rivalrys die hard. Plenty of nostalgia about the good old days when we had a carrier and Fleet Air Arm with fast jets and trackers. Plenty of old photos going around, I will post some of them if you like?
The article has spurred plenty of interest in defence circles, old rivalrys die hard. Plenty of nostalgia about the good old days when we had a carrier and Fleet Air Arm with fast jets and trackers. Plenty of old photos going around, I will post some of them if you like?
You might want to see the November 2006 edition of the US weekly ‘DefenseNews’ where, Hans-Peter Bartels, Bundestag Defence Committee, and Rear Admiral Wolfgang Kalähne, German Naval Aviation, discuss the concept of a 'coaliton carrier'. Or German Naval Aviation units deploying onto a NATO carrier and operating as part of the air wing. Much like USMC and RAF squadrons are part of USN and RN CAWs.
When 1 Sqn is opertional on the Super Hornet the RAAF will be very close to having a carrier capable squadron. If Air Combat Group wants to play apart of the COE why not do a 6 month tour as part of a US Navy Carrier Strike Group? With the USMC converting to F-35B the US Navy will need every bit of help they can get to fill their CAWs. They would probably even provide the aircraft so we don't have to change the ILS or suffer the extra fatigue.
The article has spurred plenty of interest in defence circles, old rivalrys die hard. Plenty of nostalgia about the good old days when we had a carrier and Fleet Air Arm with fast jets and trackers. Plenty of old photos going around, I will post some of them if you like?
Hooroo
Just for nostalga heres a few of mine. May she rest in peace!!!
They won't be "identical", as RAAF Hornets don't operate from carriers they have navaids, such as ILS, fitted for instrument approaches to airfields. I believe the RAAF Super Hornets will have a similar fitout. These systems aren't fitted to USN and USMC Hornets, can cause problems when your Tacan beacon is offset from the airfield and you need to do an instrument approach.
And yes they will have tailhooks.
Hooroo
You are right about the ILS but my understanding is that it is basically a 'plug in' system that would be easy to replace. Someone else might be able to give a more technically accurate description. However, I think that the suggestion put forward by AGRA that RAAF pilots could deploy using USN aircraft would be the way to go. As he said, no mods would be needed and the extra fatigue which would result from exposing the RAAF FA-18F squadron to carrier operations would be avoided.
BTW, I enjoyed Ozzy's photos of Melbourne. One of my early memories of the old carrier was sitting in the observer’s seat of a Sea Venom parked on her flight deck during her visit to Hobart in 1957. I was too small to see out! During that visit she put up a 22 aircraft flypast over the city by her entire embarked air group (8 Sea Venoms, 12 Gannets and 2 Sycamore helos). There has not been a larger flypast over Hobart since then!
Tas
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Learn from the past. Prepare for the future
Last edited by Tasman; August 23rd, 2007 at 03:44 AM.
Here is a few of the photos, I will try and put the rest up tomorrow maybe in the Navy section. Damn computer won't let me do what I want it to!!
I remember seeing HMAS Melbourne in Sydney not long before she was scrapped and thinking how big she was. I have since toured USS Constellation in Sydney and USS Kitty Hawk in Singapore, now they were big!!
Hooroo
Last edited by barra; October 17th, 2007 at 05:55 PM.
