Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates
This is a discussion on Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; SBS news reported tonight that Australia and the US - and I only tuned in half way through, and didn't ...
SBS news reported tonight that Australia and the US - and I only tuned in half way through, and didn't catch all of it - will be signing some sort of super military technology sharing pact during APEC (whilst showing footage of a JSF). The take I had was that this would be to Australia's benefit.
I realise that it could be the reverse -and mean Oz flogs off its JORN tech or somesuch (if it hasn't already).
But there was the hint in the aviation miltech direction.
Now I don't know where things stand re JSF technology transfer ATM - I believe Oz won't have access to to the JSF software coding suites, maybe that will change OR (cue 2001 a space odyssey music) access to something else?? Howard WAS looking rather smug in the soundbite shown - and this is an election year. The only thing I'd rule out is Johnny doing cartwheels for the camera.
I have a question re RAAF squadron sizes and mainitince cycles for those real RAAFies out there in DT world such as barra and magoo. Given the current squadron size of 14 A/C per sqn and the current fleet size of 55, how do maintance requirements fit in with that number? I was under the impression that for every platform you had ready for the battle, you had one in maitinance or upgrades, hence 24 F18F's equiping a single 12 A/C squadron. But it seems this isn't so and my operational squadron numbers of 12 were wrong. Exactly how does the RAAF manage the maintinance requirments of its fighter fleet, and how many bugs does it keep operational at any one time? I guess the basic question is how big does your fleet size need to be to keep x number platforms battle ready????? how many bugs are rady to fight at any one time, not taking exercise requirements into account.
I have a question re RAAF squadron sizes and mainitince cycles for those real RAAFies out there in DT world such as barra and magoo. Given the current squadron size of 14 A/C per sqn and the current fleet size of 55, how do maintance requirements fit in with that number? I was under the impression that for every platform you had ready for the battle, you had one in maitinance or upgrades, hence 24 F18F's equiping a single 12 A/C squadron. But it seems this isn't so and my operational squadron numbers of 12 were wrong. Exactly how does the RAAF manage the maintinance requirments of its fighter fleet, and how many bugs does it keep operational at any one time? I guess the basic question is how big does your fleet size need to be to keep x number platforms battle ready????? how many bugs are rady to fight at any one time, not taking exercise requirements into account.
Like I said before, although the two-seat B models are primarily used for conversion and instructor training, they are fully combat capable and must therefore be included in the OOB, so it's 71 Hornets, not 55.
The 71 jets (originally 75) were deemed sufficient to be able to maintain the three operational squadrons, one OCU and two jets assigned to ARDU throughout the life of the jet. In fact, the RAAF had expected to lose 10 Hornets through attrition by half life of type (~2000) and up to 15 by the time they were retired, so they're well ahead of the curve in that regard.
With the ongoing HUG upgrades at the moment, it's hard to quantify numbers of aircraft availability etc. While many of the mods are carried out while the jets go through R3s, some can't be due to timing etc. The optimum number of jets assigned to each unit is between 15 and 18, with about 20% of these expected to be down for maintenance. But at the moment as many as a third of the fleet could be going through HUG and/or R3.
The F/A-18Fs is a different proposition, and is really a one-off due to it being a "bridging capability" as opposed to a longer term proposition. As AD said, it was planned that only 1SQN would fly the Super while 6SQN went straight to the F-35, although I understand this is now under review and that 6SQN is back in the F/A-18F mix. Indeed, it may be that 6SQN will relinquish its F-111 OCU role early and head over to the US in late 09 to bring the first jets back in mid 2010. It will become the F/A-18F OCU, and 1SQN the operational unit as is the case with the F-111. The 24 jets will be assigned to 82WG as opposed to individual units, and the two squadrons will draw from the pool of 24 jets as required.
Cheers
Magoo
________________
Lead, follow, or get out of the way!
Moin,
if seen on wiki that RAAF has choosen the P8 Poseidon as an P3 Replacement.
If this true how many Airframes would be purchased. A 1 one 1 Replacement which would lead to 18 Airframes?
By the way RAAF also wanted to purchase UAV like Global Hawk and Predator any talk on Aircraft Numbers of this models,
Moin,
if seen on wiki that RAAF has choosen the P8 Poseidon as an P3 Replacement.
If this true how many Airframes would be purchased. A 1 one 1 Replacement which would lead to 18 Airframes?
By the way RAAF also wanted to purchase UAV like Global Hawk and Predator any talk on Aircraft Numbers of this models,
There hasn't been any decision yet on numbers, the AP-3C replacement project (AIR-7000) has only just been given first pass approval, which means technically that something OTHER than the P-8A could be chosen.
Second pass approval is where the actual platform, numbers etc is approved by Government and ADF can go ahead and acquire said platform.
However in saying that the Government has given approval to invest into the SDD phase of the USN's P-8A program so...
I doubt there will be a 1 for 1 replacement of the AP-3C with the P-8, however RAAF has been given $4.5B JUST to acquire the new manned aircraft component of AIR-7000 however, so RAAF should be able to acquire a substantial number of airframes with this amount of funding. I can see from this amount alone that RAAF should be able to acquire between 8-12 airframes at LEAST...
As to the BAMS requirement, no decision has been made on the platform or numbers for RAAF's maritime UAV. This program IIRC was only given first pass approval last year and I expect that RAAF is awaiting the outcome of the USN's BAMS project before it commits to a platform, despite previously announcing that we WILL acquire Global Hawk.
I'd imagine however that anywhere from 4-8 Global Hawk LIKE UAV's are a definite possibility, leaving us in a much better position persistance and response-wise than we are now...
The 24 jets will be assigned to 82WG as opposed to individual units, and the two squadrons will draw from the pool of 24 jets as required.
Do you see the flight hours of the F/A-18F's rising quickly?
I would think the flight hours would build up quickly with two squadrons sharing only 24 aircraft. This tends to suggest the RAAF doesn't want to operate them for 30 years but only 20 years at most.
A few have suggested that the last squadron of F-35's may replace the F/A-18F's, some have suggested they'd be flown alongside the F-35.
My opinion is the RAAF intends to put alot of the load on the F/A-18F's shoulders and by the time the last squadron of F-35's arrive their wont be much life left in the super Hornets.
A mid life upgrade would then be required which would be convenient as they could also be converted to the latest growler spec aircraft.
Moin,
if seen on wiki that RAAF has choosen the P8 Poseidon as an P3 Replacement.
If this true how many Airframes would be purchased. A 1 one 1 Replacement which would lead to 18 Airframes?
By the way RAAF also wanted to purchase UAV like Global Hawk and Predator any talk on Aircraft Numbers of this models,
The Global hawk may very well be purchased. This has some crossover with the current P-3 aircraft in terms of the missions they can perform.
This would no doubt mean that we could buy fewer P-8 aircraft as the Global hawk could swing in to lend a hand.
Also the P-8 can fly higher and faster allowing it to cover a larger area. It will also have more advanced and powerful sensors. Finally the P-8 uses a comercial 737 design so maintenance will allow for a larger percentage of the fleet to be available.
It wouldn't surprise me if they bough one P-8 aircraft for every two P-3 aircraft. That would not result in any reduction in capability in my opinion.
Currently Oz operates 18 p3 for long term Ops I would really like to see 13 P8(12 for Ops one for Training) in addition 8 Golbal Hawks as they also could be used for Ground Recon.
What I do not understand is that they also evluate the Mariner and Predator ,which are in a different class than the Global Hawk
Hi Guys,
Been out of town for a few days and am just catching up on the discussion. With regards to OB's question about Hornet sqn size, on paper each sqn should have 18 a/c. However HUG has impacted on a/c availability and 81WG manages a/c allocations to each sqn. So for example 2OCU as the training unit has highest priority and then the op sqn's get allocated a/c on the strength of their planned activity, so if 77 is doing a bomb camp and needs extra a/c 3 and 2OCU may lose a couple for a few weeks. This is referred to as a grey tail fleet, sqn markings on a/c have no bearing on who is actually operating it. So a/c numbers in the sqns is fairly fluid at the moment and will remain so until HUG is finished.
You must also understand that because a sqn has say 14 a/c available on paper, there may actually only be 8-10 serv jets to fly. We have operated Hornets now for over 20 years and they are getting tired. They are still formidable assets though and after HUG is finished will be even more so.
Magoo made some comments that I would like to elaborate on. Jets are not going into HUG when an R3 is required. 81WG manages which jets are inducted into HUG and when. Training new aircrew is one of ACG's main prioritys so most of the duals have already been through HUG 2.2. In fact doing an R3 and HUG 2.2 mod at the same time would be a nightmare. Boeing currently have the "speedline" going where each jet takes about 3 months to modify, any u/s's discovered by Boeing are recorded and left to sqn techs to rectify. Which has been a source of angst amongst the sqn's.
Also the comments about 6sqn becoming the Super Hornet OCU are incorrect. All the SH's will have a WSO in the rear seat, or an ACO as the RAAF calls them. SH's will not be able to be flown from the rear seat. I guess 2OCU will continue to train aircrew for Hornet ops including the SH sqns. I remember hearing somewhere that a Hornet pilot can transition from our -A/-B's to -F's in 5 hours or 5 flights I think, was a major part of the decision to purchase SH's instead of another type. I am not sure what the plan is for transition to JSF, but I guess that if 6SQN are still going to be the first to receive them then 1SQN may become the sole operator of F/A-18F.
Most of you may have guessed that I am a serving member, as such I am reluctant to comment on many things you guys discuss.(the ADF is pretty anal about OPSEC) There have been plenty of times I have wanted to comment or expand on a point made but I can't. If you want to ask me a direct question then you can PM me.
Hey barra,just tried to PM you...no luck! Im in Darwin and a pretty keen barra fisho...if youre up this way,drop me a line!
Have some questions for you regarding ADGies,however,they are probably best kept to PM.
Currently Oz operates 18 p3 for long term Ops I would really like to see 13 P8(12 for Ops one for Training)
As this is based on the 737-900 airframe you don't really need a full blown P-8 for training. In fact basic flying training could be carrie out on one of the many 737NG platforms (flying the VIP iardraft of instance) or, more likley, in a simulator. Similalry systems training could also be carried in a simulator or training airframe rather than a full blown P-8.
I have heard the figure 12 bandied about but, as AD indicated, nothing is fixed.
I have heard the quantity of F-35's ordered by Australia is 100 or more based on different information , do you know the exact numbers in order and do you think they will go for 100 or cancel a few numbers ?
I have heard the quantity of F-35's ordered by Australia is 100 or more based on different information , do you know the exact numbers in order and do you think they will go for 100 or cancel a few numbers ?
Australia hasn't ordered any F-35's yet.
The decision is still very much up in the air and possibly even hinges upon the election we have coming up in Australia this year. Our current Government has pledged to acquire "up to 100" F-35A fighters, basically enough to equip 4x operational fighter squadrons and 1x Operational Conversion Unit.
These plus a few attrition airframes and some airframes for RAAF's "development unit" will equal somewhere in the vicinity of 100 aircraft.
However the current opposition party in Australia has promised to conduct a review of Australia's air power requirements if voted in, this I imagine will delay the F-35 acquisition even if they do decide to stick with the current plan.
The decision if the current Government is voted in, is expected to be made in 2008 to acquire the F-35A and in what order, numbers etc.
Last edited by Aussie Digger; September 8th, 2007 at 12:51 AM.
The decision is still very much up in the air and possibly even hinges upon the election we have coming up in Australia this year. Our current Government has pledged to acquire "up to 100" F-35A fighters, basically enough to equip 4x operational fighter squadrons and 1x Operational Conversion Unit.
These plus a few attrition airframes and some airframes for RAAF's "development unit" will equal somewhere in the vicinity of 100 aircraft.
However the current opposition party in Australia has promised to conduct a review of Australia's air power requirements if voted in, this I imagine will delay the F-35 acquisition even if they do decide to stick with the current plan.
The decision if the current Government is voted in, is expected to be made in 2008 to acquire the F-35A and in what order, numbers etc.
It will be interesting if Kevin "I went to a strip club but didn't look" Rudd does get up and win. Labour has stated that F-22 is what the RAAF should be ordering. Now we all know that the US has said no to exporting f-22's so it leaves a rather large whole in their defence plans. If they are voted in then I think all the noise made previously about JSF will be quietly forgotten and F-35A will be ordered next year as AD has said. Personally I think alot of the criticism of the F-35 is ill informed, they will provide the ADF with a huge step up on what we currently operate and also over the Super Hornets. Once Wedgetail and KC-30B's are delivered and with ~100 F-35A's the RAAF will be a potent force in the region.
Hooroo
Last edited by Aussie Digger; September 8th, 2007 at 12:51 AM.
Howard WAS looking rather smug in the soundbite shown - and this is an election year. The only thing I'd rule out is Johnny doing cartwheels for the camera.
