Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates
This is a discussion on Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Personally i hope the RAAF does go with ASRAAM for the F35 over the 9x. The capabilities of these missiles ...
Personally i hope the RAAF does go with ASRAAM for the F35 over the 9x. The capabilities of these missiles are very similar. However i was under the impression that the main diefference between the 2 systems was that the 9x has less range and is designed to be better end game performer. It does have high off broadsight capability, IIRC you can basicaly target anything the pilot can see over his sholder. The ASRAAM however has fewer controll surfaces and a longer range. Apart from the fact that it gives up some of its airodynamic end game performance (in comparison to the 9x) it has a true "360 degre" off broadsight capability. The ASRAAM gives the pilot a "sphere" engagement envilope. Now currently its not easy to target something directly behind you unless you have a sensor pointing that way, and AFAIK currently the Flanker is the only platform with such a system. However the DAS on the F35 (Distributed Apature System) will give the pilot 360 degrees of WVR IRST coverage, this coupled with the 360 degree engagement envilope on the ASRAAM will alow the pilot to target any threat at any angle, even directly behind him. It will be a very effective WVR combination.
Some of you think that there will be fewer F-35A's to fill the airforce squadrons..
Lets look at the F-111 fleet..
We currently operate 26 F-111's. Half of which are usually not operational. Best case we have 16 or so F-111's operational. Thats about right for a single squadron... But wait... We have TWO F-111 squadrons thats only 8 operational aircraft per squadron!!
So much for our 24 aircraft per squadron idea.
Lets look at our F/A-18 Fleet.
We have 71 aircraft. 17 of two seat trainers and 51 single seat combat aircraft.
Now we have three squadrons which would seem right but then we also have a training/conversion unit which uses the two seaters shared with Number 3 and 77 squadrons are Williamstown. As most squadrons include a couple two seaters that gives us only 17-18 combat aircraft per squadron.
So much for out 24 aircraft squadron idea.
If we reduce the squadron size to 20 aircraft that is much more realistic. 5 squadrons of 20 brings up 100 aircraft in total. Looking at squadron sizes of the F-111 i believe that the reliability of the F-35's will be so good that we could use 16 aircraft squadrons. That gives us 5 squadrons of 16 aircraft to replace the two F-111 and two F/A-18 hornet squadrons. That brings a total of only 80 F-35 aircraft.
A 6th additional suqadron of 16 aircraft could consist of F-35B's. 16 would be a perfect size of F-35B's. 8 F-35's could be rotated onto one of the three LHD's.
You are right about the Orbat of F111 Sqn,but IIRC "wrong" about F18 Squadrons.
Oz has 3 F/18 Combat Squadrons (77,75;3) each with 14 Aircraft.
The Rest is operated by 2 Operational Conservation Unit.
So if we stick with the 14 Configuration you could build up 6 Sqn of total 86 Aircraft for Combat Ops and a Sqn of 14 JSF for OCU/Evaluation.
If we then take into account that the Super Hornet will stay after JSF arives we may got a 8 Combat Sqn. Ive heard something on the lines that Rhino maybe will be upgraded to Growler Standard,which imho is a very good idea.
source:http://www.geocities.com/pacific_oob/RAAF_2004.htm
Last edited by Navor86; September 2nd, 2007 at 02:27 AM.
Thats even fewer than i thought. I remembered reading that a couple 2 seaters were attached to each squadron.
A squadron size of 14 is pretty low. If the F-111's only operate 8 aircraft per squadron then in my opinion it would be very smart to operate 12 aircraft per squadron.
A dozen aircraft is extremely good number as it can be evenly divided into two or three groups.
Also as we are buying two dozen Super Hornets we could make up two squadrons. Aparently the 24 superhornets will go into two squadrons at number 1 and 6 squadrons. This confirms that 12 aircraft will be the new squadron total.
We can assume two things from this. Either the RAAF will be reducing its squadron size and number of pilots per squadron or the RAAF plans to fly the Super Hornets at a very high rate. The Super Hornets may have a fairly quick life and used heavily. So they will most likely be replaced by the last two squadrons of F-35's. The two squadrons Super hornets may then be converted into a single squadron and turned into Growlers.
Lets calculate the JSF order based on a 12 aircraft squadron. We now need very few F-35's to replace the current squadrons. In fact we could create a 6th or even 7th fighter squadron.
36 F-35A's to replace the 3 squadrons of Classic Hornets first up.
24 F-35A's to replace the 2 squadrons Super Hornets.
12 F-35B's to add to the LHD's.
Thats 72 F-35's.
12 F-35b's is the ideal number. All 12 could be added to an LHD for a carrier only operation. 6 of them could be rotated on and off an LHD. 4 of them could be rotated off a pair of LHD's as four aircraft per LHD will have minor impact on the amfib role.
In my opinion Australia will never own 100 F-35's as they cost too much.
Some of you think that there will be fewer F-35A's to fill the airforce squadrons..
Lets look at the F-111 fleet..
We currently operate 26 F-111's. Half of which are usually not operational. Best case we have 16 or so F-111's operational. Thats about right for a single squadron... But wait... We have TWO F-111 squadrons thats only 8 operational aircraft per squadron!!
So much for our 24 aircraft per squadron idea.
Lets look at our F/A-18 Fleet.
We have 71 aircraft. 17 of two seat trainers and 51 single seat combat aircraft.
Now we have three squadrons which would seem right but then we also have a training/conversion unit which uses the two seaters shared with Number 3 and 77 squadrons are Williamstown. As most squadrons include a couple two seaters that gives us only 17-18 combat aircraft per squadron.
So much for out 24 aircraft squadron idea.
If we reduce the squadron size to 20 aircraft that is much more realistic. 5 squadrons of 20 brings up 100 aircraft in total. Looking at squadron sizes of the F-111 i believe that the reliability of the F-35's will be so good that we could use 16 aircraft squadrons. That gives us 5 squadrons of 16 aircraft to replace the two F-111 and two F/A-18 hornet squadrons. That brings a total of only 80 F-35 aircraft.
A 6th additional suqadron of 16 aircraft could consist of F-35B's. 16 would be a perfect size of F-35B's. 8 F-35's could be rotated onto one of the three LHD's.
Yes, there are two F-111 squadrons, but only one of these is an operational unit (1SQN), while the other is a conversion unit (6SQN). The last of the G models were retired as of last week, leaving 21 C models, of which only six to eight are allocated to 6SQN according to operational requirements.
There are three operational Hornet squadrons (3, 75 and 77), and one conversion unit (2OCU). There are 71 Hornets left in service, 16 of which are two-seat B models, and 55 single seat A models, however due to the ongoing HUG program and R3 maintenance program, the squadrons are operating at their minimum numbers of about 10 to 12 airframes on line. Don't forget also, the B model is fully combat capable, albeit with about eight percent less range.
Whereas Hornet tail numbers and markings have previously been assigned to units in the past, these are now all mixed across the fleet as they complete their HUG 2.2 upgrades and are re-allocated, e.g. 77SQN, the first all HUG 2.2 unit currently has tail markings from all four units allocated to it. So Basically, an operational pool of jets is controlled by 81WG, and these are allocated ad hoc to units to meet their respective operational, exercise, or training commitments.
The 100 JSF numbers comes from what is thought to be an optimum number of airframes required, allowing for attrition and maintenance requirements, to maintain four operational and two conversion units, just as 75 Hornets and 24 F-111s were originally thought to be sufficient in the 70s. However, due to the unreliability of the F-111s during the 80s and the impending digital AUP in the 90s, an additional 15 F-111Gs were acquired so as to keep "sufficient airframes in the carports" as the CO of 6SQN said in a recent article. Now that the C models has been given a definite retirement date (June 30, 2010), the Gs which are almost all due for some deep maintenance, can instead be drawn down with confidence.
The F-35 and F/A-18F are expected to be far more reliable than the aircraft they replace; for example, the F/A-18F in USN service currently requires about 12 maintenance man hours per flight hour (MMH/FH) while at sea on a carrier to keep flying, whereas the F-14 often needed more than 100! If the F-35 does end up replacing the F/A-18F around 2021, it is unlikely we'll require two OCUs. Therefore, the ultimate number of F-35s acquired may end up being closer to 80 rather than the 100 currently specified, whilst still being able to maintain the desired number of aircraft on the ramp and squadrons.
And just on the F-35B, although I wouldn't bet my life on it, I'm very confident it'll NEVER be acquired for the ADF, as neither the RAAF nor the RAN want them, and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in uniform to recommend them to the Minister in the near future. The LHDs are going to be troop, helicopter and landing craft carriers - that's it!
Cheers
Magoo
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IMHO anything less than converting the current Hornet and F111 Squadrons
would be an bad idea. I mean with 100 you can easy put No6 Squadron from an F111 OCU to an F35 Combat Squadron. And with just an Aircrafttype 1 OCU would be sufficent enough. So the goal for Oz should be 5 JSF Combat Sqn+ 1OCU. So in time of emergency you could deploy for first wave of Operations 2 JSF Sqn
Historically the RAAF has operated 18 airframes per sqn and I am pretty sure this will be the model for F-35. I am unsure how many jets other Air Forces have per Sqn, I think the USAF operate large 24 A/C sqns. Just because a sqn has 18 A/C on their flightline though, doesn't mean they have 18 serv jets to fly. So total airframes and serv jets available to fly are usually two entirely different figures and usually comes down to the quality of your logistical support. Can't fix jets if you ain't got no spares.
Before HUG each sqn had a dual and the rest were fighters. Magoo is right in that the fleet is "grey tailed" meaning they are transfered within units no matter what sqn markings they carry.
Current plans(before Super Hornets were ordered) have 2OCU closing when the classic Hornets retire and 6sqn being the first F-35 SQN, carrying out the OCU role. After that the four operational F-35 sqn's will stand up, most likely 1, 3, 75 and 77 sqns. ARDU will operate a couple and there was some fat built in to cover attrition. No number has been set, only "up to 100" has been mentioned. So the end number will rely on the cost per A/C when they are ordered. If the price comes in to high then we will get less of them.
What happens to the Super Hornets when we have all our F-35's is unclear at this stage.
Magoo and Barra have brought us back to reality. It's good to have someone tell it 'as it is'.
I hope you are wrong about the F-35Bs Magoo. Never seems an awfully long time. I do agree with you that they are unlikely to be considered in 'the near future'.
Tas
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Learn from the past. Prepare for the future
Last edited by Tasman; September 2nd, 2007 at 06:49 PM.
Historically the RAAF has operated 18 airframes per sqn and I am pretty sure this will be the model for F-35.
18 Aircraft per squadron? I dont know where you got that number from.
We are ordering 24 superhornets to form 2 squadrons.
Thats 12 airframes per squadron.
With the F-111's we have less than half of your 18 aircraft per squadron.
If the RAAF follow this model with the F-35 we dont even need 80 F-35's to replace the current squadrons.
I can see the RAAF operating the F-35 for 30 years so extra aircraft for attrition would be a possibility. As it will probably be the last US manned fighter aircraft to be produced.
18 Aircraft per squadron? I dont know where you got that number from.
We are ordering 24 superhornets to form 2 squadrons.
Thats 12 airframes per squadron.
With the F-111's we have less than half of your 18 aircraft per squadron.
I think Barra was saying that historically the number per fighter squadron in the RAAF was 18. In recent times the figure dropped to 14 as available FA-18 numbers have declined during the HUG program. Magoo has indicated that the numbers on line are currently down to between 10 and 12.
In the case of bomber, maritime, transport and special purposes squadrons the numbers have been smaller (although the present C-130 squadron has 20 at the present time). The F-111's were regarded as bombers when they entered RAAF service and the squadron establishment was smaller than that for fighters.
18 Aircraft per squadron? I dont know where you got that number from.
We are ordering 24 superhornets to form 2 squadrons.
Thats 12 airframes per squadron.
With the F-111's we have less than half of your 18 aircraft per squadron.
If the RAAF follow this model with the F-35 we dont even need 80 F-35's to replace the current squadrons.
I can see the RAAF operating the F-35 for 30 years so extra aircraft for attrition would be a possibility. As it will probably be the last US manned fighter aircraft to be produced.
Out of 71x F/A-18A/B Hornets RAAF typically operates 55x operational aircraft within it's 3x Squadrons, depending on maintenance and availability levels as outlined above. Obviously you missed it...
At full strength, how many per Squadron is that off hand?
Again, as above, the Super Hornets WILL entirely be issued to 1 Squadron. 6 Squadron will be transitioning to the F-35 and will not EVER receive any Super Hornets as I understand the current plans.
I imagine a small OCU will be organised within 1 Squadron, meaning that the operational force of Rhino's will in fact comprise around 18x aircraft...
Today's Australian reported that Australia is considering sending AP-3C Orions and FA-18 Hornets to Afghanistan. The comment was made by Mark Dodd in a report re the deployment of an army mortar section.
Quote:
Mark Dodd | September 03, 2007
... Other measures being considered by the ADF include sending sophisticated Orion surveillance planes and a possible deployment of RAAF F/A-18C Hornet jets.
The full article is posted in the Australian Army thread.
I don't know how reliable Mark's report is but, re the fighters, I presume the RAAF would only be considering the deployment of a detachment of FA-18A's.
Tas
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Learn from the past. Prepare for the future
Last edited by Tasman; September 3rd, 2007 at 06:54 AM.
I don't know how reliable Mark's report is but, re the fighters, I presume the RAAF would only be considering the deployment of a detachment of FA-18A's.
That does make me wonder about the accuracy of Mark's comments! Although one of our more knowledgeable members on aviation matters, did mention in another forum, that the modernised Oz FA-18's are now referred to as 'C's' by Boeing.
Tas
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Learn from the past. Prepare for the future
Last edited by Tasman; September 3rd, 2007 at 09:23 AM.
