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This is a discussion on Republic of Singapore Air Force Discussions within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by hydraulic I have read your revealed secret of Raptor F-22.You have mentioned about the unofficial report excercised ...


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Old September 8th, 2005   #16
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

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Originally Posted by hydraulic
I have read your revealed secret of Raptor F-22.You have mentioned about the unofficial report excercised between Indian SU-30MKI and US F-15, the Sukhoi seem to be slighty better then the F-15.
can we all NOT go through this again??? It was DACT. The purpose and reasons for DACT have been discussed ad infinitum in here. I have no desire to watch another thread go round and round in circles


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Originally Posted by hydraulic
I hope you can understand my poor English. What im trying to say is that.Singapore should find a better match for the SU-30MKM (malaysia) and Indonesia.
The tender definition was for a strike aircraft - not an air to air platform. Singapore obviously feels that it has air to air superiority for the next 15 years (again, read the tender requirements)

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Originally Posted by hydraulic
Maybe the Grispen or the Thypoon(we have seen the comparison made in the other forum)
Gripen failed to meet Singapores strict requirements. Typhoon missed out as the platform required was not available until 2010-2012

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Originally Posted by hydraulic
or the US future fighter F-22 Raptor as you have revealed the secret.

Raptor is just too expensive for the Singaporean
Its not available for export - case closed.


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Originally Posted by hydraulic
or maybe someone should start a new comparison between SU-30 and F-15.
I hope not, its been done to death already - and people struggle to understand the Cope India results let alone the differences in tender requirements and variances in airframes.
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Old September 8th, 2005   #17
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

Perhaps after all these years they can finally match Japan's air superiority capability, just an issue of national pride? Who knows...

But it would be the last choice I'd make, F/A-18C mucho better if you need two engines.
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Old September 8th, 2005   #18
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

Thank you for your submission. F-15 meets all the strict requirement.
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Old September 9th, 2005   #19
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

What is a mule in usaf terms?

Also, i seem to be misinformed about USAF squadrons. I had some data saying a USAF squadron usually has 24 aircraft. Has that number been lowered to 21 in recent years? (my source may be outdated)
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Old September 9th, 2005   #20
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

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What is a mule in usaf terms?

Also, i seem to be misinformed about USAF squadrons. I had some data saying a USAF squadron usually has 24 aircraft. Has that number been lowered to 21 in recent years? (my source may be outdated)
I've fired off an email to a bloke I know who works on one of their JSF programmes to find out whether it's an abnormal number. We'll just have to wait.
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Old October 8th, 2005   #21
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

Let's just put a final thread on this one. Singapore has always bought U.S. so the F15 was bound to be the natural first choice. The French, dispite all their massive marketing attempts at wooing Singapore political and public support (they even advertised on the buses!) never stood an earthly though one must hugely admire the Singapore government for playing them along. As for Eurofighter Typhoon - pity, but Singapore may well have felt that as Typhoon (until Case White is fully complete at Conningsby) isn't yet fully air to air/air to ground and thus it may have still been viewed with some degree of risk.

Perhaps the real point is that in buying F15 now Singapore is really saying that further down the road it's going for an aircraft that hasn't yet even flown - Joint Strike Fighter. What's the betting that these F15's (great aircraft though it still is) are a stop gap measure by Singapore for eventually buying JSF.

The pity is that through all this campaign Eurofighter Typhoon came out tops on performance at every stage. That's a credit to what's surely a great aircraft and still only now at the very early stage of an export campaign. Even though the omens for Eurofighter export may not look that good (only Austria has bought it outside of the four European partner governments) this airrcaft has yet to have its glory day. It will though it may not be for a few years yet.
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Old October 17th, 2005   #22
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

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Next Gen fighter? the F-15?
my goodness, the F-15 was released as 3rd generation fighter and was not fully electronically outfitted unlike the F-16 back in the 1970's. Even the F-15C is not most advanced air superiority fighter anymore, especially with the appearance of the Russian Flanker jets especially the Su-35. The first F-15 roled out in the mid 1970's and entered service in 1978 in the USAF. Singapore should rather seek for the EF2000 Tyhoon or F/A-18E Super Hornet instead of any F-15s. China might also offer the J-10A (F-10) to Singapore later to support the current F-16C and D squadrons.
J-10A in Singapore's armed force service. RSAF should rather consider MIG-21 then J-10A. Dont mean to be antagonising. Just stating the Fact
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Old October 26th, 2005   #23
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

Interesting Thread!

F-15, an old aircraft it might be, stands by its performance and history as a successful platform. Others are nice picture to get blonde women attention.

The French calling Indian deal tainted? That is hilarious. Better as the Germans what they say about Scorpene to India, as they lick their wounds.

We should not forget that alpha or beta buyer, financial arrangements play a key role in deciding defence deals, like any deals. Sometimes, specifications become ir-relevant, and so does alliances (these days).

One who is willing to pay the moolah, will get the honey jar, and drink it too.
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Old October 26th, 2005   #24
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

btw, the threads getting a bit derailed - and I realise that I'm one of the guilty ones in here.

So if we can get back to the topic, so that I don't have to end up having to ban myself.
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Old October 27th, 2005   #25
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

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You always look at heritage and previous capability - at some point paper only analysis is risky. One could argue that the Rafale is untested - except I'd bet substantial money that it would clean up a lot of modern combat aircraft - certainly at the capability level.

Hi Gary,
hope you remember me! me mukunda from FrontierIndia. Gary, can you say something more about Rafale. Why do you think it will clean up a lot of modern aircraft? Will love to get your feelings.
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Old October 27th, 2005   #26
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

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Hi Gary,
hope you remember me! me mukunda from FrontierIndia. Gary, can you say something more about Rafale. Why do you think it will clean up a lot of modern aircraft? Will love to get your feelings.
hi mukunda, a few reasons:

the french have always been at the high end of the curve with solid performing aircraft. basically ever since the Mirage 111E on IMV. they've only really ever made one bad decision as far as carrier aircraft and thats because I think they should have gone with the A4's rather than develop the Super Etendard.

the french have a solid reputation for integration of systems and they're deft at managing disparate customers. after all, who else successfully sells to the US, China, India and Pakistan? It's not exactly a mutual admiration society in that little lot.

Rafales developed a good reputation in areas such as Op Herakles

the main issue is when (not if) Rafales get exported, then what the export capability of the platform will be like. then you need to factor in training and support competencies.

any analysis of a platform needs to be measured against the owners requirements. eg, if you want intercontinental strike, then an Su-34 will win hands down. In a heavily radiated/emissioned environment, I would expect the Rafale to have the advantage.
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Old October 27th, 2005   #27
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

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hi mukunda, a few reasons:

the french have always been at the high end of the curve with solid performing aircraft. basically ever since the Mirage 111E on IMV. they've only really ever made one bad decision as far as carrier aircraft and thats because I think they should have gone with the A4's rather than develop the Super Etendard.

the french have a solid reputation for integration of systems and they're deft at managing disparate customers. after all, who else successfully sells to the US, China, India and Pakistan? It's not exactly a mutual admiration society in that little lot.

Rafales developed a good reputation in areas such as Op Herakles

the main issue is when (not if) Rafales get exported, then what the export capability of the platform will be like. then you need to factor in training and support competencies.

any analysis of a platform needs to be measured against the owners requirements. eg, if you want intercontinental strike, then an Su-34 will win hands down. In a heavily radiated/emissioned environment, I would expect the Rafale to have the advantage.
1)what is op Herakles?
2) In a heavily radiated/emissioned environment, rafales have the advantage:- are you talking of Active Radar cancellation? US was supposed to have it decades ago.
3) French sell systems to the USA too? very surprised
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Old October 27th, 2005   #28
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

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1)what is op Herakles?
The Operation in Afghanistan where USN and FAA aircraft ran strikes into Afghanistan


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Originally Posted by mukunda
2) In a heavily radiated/emissioned environment, rafales have the advantage:- are you talking of Active Radar cancellation?
I have to confess that I'm extremely cynical of Active Radar Cancellation on an aircraft.


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3) French sell systems to the USA too? very surprised
Thales is French. So, as far as co-operative sales go, then yes. They just don't sell major weapons systems.
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Old October 27th, 2005   #29
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

hi gf0012-aust!
thanx for the detailed reply, it shows that you are one of the few who really knows many facts about the strategy and technology affairs.
Ok back to the topic: I'm still wondering why Singapore is getting so many advanced weapons (they even have more advanced stuff than Taiwan) despite its small size nation (city-state). I wonder who would attack Singapore since it can rely on support from US and China! Singapore has much less to fear than Taiwan because Taiwan is having mainland China as its rival while China blocks any weapons deal between Taiwan and the deliverer country (USA, France, Germany etc.)
I guess Taiwanese militaries are very jealous of the Singaporians
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Old October 27th, 2005   #30
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

Hi folks, I am a Singaporean and I happened to see so much debate on the next generation fighter selection, just want to put in some of my ideas.
Firstly, it is obvious from the announcement that Singapore has only bought 24 fighter planes, thus it is more or less obvious that the F-15 was a mere stop gap solution to wait for the F-35 to roll out. Secondly, many people on some other forum claim that Singapore bought American planes bcos we wanted to please them...... I can tell u this is a definite NO. RSAF aims to buy and plane to replace the ageing A4SU skyhawk for the attack and striking role. Thus, looking from the selection, only the F-15 seems to be tailored to deal with such needs, it has the biggest payload too. Furthermore, it comes with AESA radar and most importantly relatively cheap of 30mio if not wrong. The package also comes with training missiles, amaarams and last but not least some'diluted' versions of JSOW, thus giving us a huge advantage. It is not wise to buy Russian as it will throw our airforce into a logistic and training nightmare. Singapore has a habit of buying war-proven equipments, which therefore can conclude why F15 is chosen, and the Rafale is still a veri young and not proven system. I'm not surprise if Singapore goes for the Rafale if we are barredfrom accquiring the F-35, bcos by them the Rafale design would have been mature, tested, and comes with various kits, ammos, and upgrades.

This is also to answer to PLA2025's qns on why we need an armed forces. I can tell u this bluntly, NOBODY and exactly NOBODY owns ANYBODY a LIVING. Get this straight. In the eyes of countries there is only interest and never a committment. When the going is good, they are frenzs, when the going is Bad, they are fiends. Give u an example, during WW2, the British fled back to England leaving a small number of weapons and a collection of NZ, AUS, Malayan troops to hell it out against the armed to the teeth Japs, why? Bcos u are just a colony, their motherland more important, thus they will just say bye to u and leave u to die. The same logic is wat does Singapore have to ensure any power in the world to send their sons and daughters to sweat, bleed and die for u? Nothing. Thus, if Singapore does not have a strong forces, u will see a second Kuwait. Thus, every male citizen upon reaching the age of 18 in Singapore is expected to serve a 2.5 yrs training window and they are required to go back for refresher training till 40yrs old. For me, I am to say I finish the 2.5 yrs and I actually have fired real rounds and thrown a live grenade!
Regarding ur qns why we need cutting edge weapons. Simple, these weapons are view as force multipliers, which means we use technologies to lever out with the huge arm forces of our neighbours. An example our airforce has literally, 2 times the assets of our neighbours, this is bcos in modern context, a strong air force can pack the most punch against an agressor Thus, Singapore maintains a huge fleet of F-16 especially the SEAD verison F-16(D). We also have quite a small yet well established defense industry. The Singapore Technologies(ST) is an example. Some of their works are like example Ultimax100 LMG, SAR-21 rifle, FH-2000 howitzers, MATADOR LAW, BIONIX IFV, AV-81 TERREX, Preserverance class LSD. These reduce our needs of for foreign arms.
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