Range of NATO air to air missiles

der_Master

New Member
Hello. I was in a discussion and someone said that USAF pilots (plus its NATO counterparts) would fire an air-to-air missile without visual conformation of an enemy plane. This person thinks that pilots would never actually see an enemy plane and just fire missiles when the plane is on the radar screen, long before the pilot could even seen a plane on the horizon. I strongly disagree, however the person cannot be persuaded otherwise. The plane in question would be an F-22 Raptor, F-15 Eagle, Eurofighter,or an F/A-18 Hornet. Basically he wants to know how good the basic avionics are inside each respective fighter. Personally I think the avionics inside any plane is not this advanced and visual conformation is needed to maintain safety, I can not imagine pilots firing stray missiles at radar blimps outside of a pilots line of sight. I am also not even sure if air-to-air missiles would have this kind of range, I am thinking Sea Sparrow, or AIM6? Or whatever the common missiles are used.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
You are talking about what is called BVR. Beyond Visual Range. It does happen, and avionics are advanced enough to allow for that kind of engagement.

Morever the ability to fight at BVR is considered a key aspect of a fighter jets performance.

The AIM-120C is a BVR missile, just to give an example.

EDIT: And heads up, the USA isn't the only one. A number of other countries also have BVR capability.
 
Hello. I was in a discussion and someone said that USAF pilots (plus its NATO counterparts) would fire an air-to-air missile without visual conformation of an enemy plane. This person thinks that pilots would never actually see an enemy plane and just fire missiles when the plane is on the radar screen, long before the pilot could even seen a plane on the horizon. I strongly disagree, however the person cannot be persuaded otherwise. The plane in question would be an F-22 Raptor, F-15 Eagle, Eurofighter,or an F/A-18 Hornet. Basically he wants to know how good the basic avionics are inside each respective fighter. Personally I think the avionics inside any plane is not this advanced and visual conformation is needed to maintain safety, I can not imagine pilots firing stray missiles at radar blimps outside of a pilots line of sight. I am also not even sure if air-to-air missiles would have this kind of range, I am thinking Sea Sparrow, or AIM6? Or whatever the common missiles are used.
also, be aware that it would not just be firing at a 'blimp' on the radar screen. if the target's radar is also active, the firing aircraft could interpret those signals/EM via the radar-warning-receiver, and determine the platform.

so, there may not be visual confirmation, but there are ways to determine the type of aircraft/platform from BVR.

not to mention target identification from AWACS/other assets.
 

Falstaff

New Member
In times of peace fighter pilots usually won't shoot without visual confirmation. The intercepting flight will usually consist of 2 planes, one closing up seeking visual confirmation and probably some pics for the squadron mess, the other one staying behind maneuvering to the optimal firing position, just in case.

In times of war however there are other means to identify target prior to shooting beyond visual range, e.g.
1. Where does it come from? (e.g. from an enemy airbase or a civil airport)
2. What's the flight profile? (speed, direction, altitude, maneuvering)
3. What does the IFF say? (is target friendly)
4. What does the radar warning receiver say)
5. What's the location? (e.g. is the target inside a killbox)
6. IIRC modern radars can identify targets via its radar reflection. I remember reading this capability is part of modern fighter radars as well as AWACS (Somebody please correct me if this is wrong), so that you will probably know what kind aircraft you're approaching.

All this gives you a pretty good idea what you're shooting at if you're forced to do so.
No pilot won't shoot if he isn't 100% sure it is a target.
 

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Along with the technical aspects we also must consider the ROE (rules of engagement). ROE is not set in stone and can change according to the past, current, or future situation. There are numerous internal and external factors that may influence ROE such as DEFCON, theater of operations, traffic density, order of battle, or geography, to name just a few. While ROE may seem similar to layman, there are differences. Hence, we have to be careful, as in the case of BVR engagements NOT to lump everything, under one solution.
 
Last edited:

Falstaff

New Member
Along with the technical aspects we also must consider the ROE (rules of engagement). ROE is not set in stone and can change according to the past, current, or future situation. There are numerous internal and external factors that may influence ROE such as DEFCON, theater of operations, traffic density, order of battle, or geography, to name just a few. While ROE may seem similar to layman, there are differences. Hence, we have to be careful, as in the case of BVR engagements to lump everything, under one solution.
As a layman, am I right assuming that there are no ROE allowing to shoot without 100% confirmation?
 

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
As a layman, am I right assuming that there are no ROE allowing to shoot without 100% confirmation?
Logically you may seem correct, however the correct answer is "It depends on the ROE"

I'm not trying to scape out on my response. This in fact is the correct answer.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
IIRC the rules of engagement for a NATO-Warsaw Pact war would have been something like "If it isn't positively identified as friendly & is heading west - kill it".

The loss of some NATO aircraft to their own side would have been regarded as unavoidable.

I would expect the ROEs for the early hours of a N. Korean invasion of the south would be "Kill anything that isn't positively identified as friendly". Civilian aircraft would be instructed to avoid Korean airspace.

Changed circumstances change rules.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
6. IIRC modern radars can identify targets via its radar reflection. I remember reading this capability is part of modern fighter radars as well as AWACS (Somebody please correct me if this is wrong), so that you will probably know what kind aircraft you're approaching.
One of the many means of classifying a non-cooperative aircraft (NCTR) by radar is if the engine face is visible - by simply measuring the speed of turbine blade revolution (and possibly also the number of turbine blades) by micro-Doppler returns.

To give an idea:

Micro-Doppler effect in radar: phenomenon, model, and simulation study
Chen, V.C.; Li, F.; Ho, S.-S.; Wechsler, H.
Aerospace and Electronic Systems, IEEE Transactions on
Volume 42, Issue 1, Jan. 2006 Page(s): 2 - 21
Digital Object Identifier 10.1109/TAES.2006.1603402
Summary: When, in addition to the constant Doppler frequency shift induced by the bulk motion of a radar target, the target or any structure on the target undergoes micro-motion dynamics, such as mechanical vibrations or rotations, the micro-motion dynamics induce Doppler modulations on the returned signal, referred to as the micro-Doppler effect. We introduce the micro-Doppler phenomenon in radar, develop a model of Doppler modulations, derive formulas of micro-Doppler induced by targets with vibration, rotation, tumbling and coning motions, and verify them by simulation studies, analyze time-varying micro-Doppler features using high-resolution time-frequency transforms, and demonstrate the micro-Doppler effect observed in real radar data.
IEEE Xplore - Login


In actual fact, I noted that SAAB (Gripen) had a vacant engineering position a few years ago with the job description of modulating returns from... the face of the turbine. :D
 

Beatmaster

New Member
Aha nice topic and good info,
But my question is how accurate is the radar and other systems to see or a object is a friend or foe?
I mean commercial planes have a id tag thats being transmitted, and also warplanes have a specific signature i believe, but i think that lets say a foe is willing to enter a specific grid of air space then he would likly do this as stealthy as possible right?
In that case how can you be sure that BVR is giving you the right data?
Because ROE will provide the correct rules what to do in a specific senario right?
So how accurate is a radar and how accurate are the systems that are used in peace and wartimes to indentify a object?
Is there a way to mess these systems up? or to fool them?
Because you do not wanna shoot down a 747 with 400 people in it because your radar is telling you, he pilot this is a Foe warplane heading for a specific location.
 

Chrom

New Member
Aha nice topic and good info,
But my question is how accurate is the radar and other systems to see or a object is a friend or foe?
I mean commercial planes have a id tag thats being transmitted, and also warplanes have a specific signature i believe, but i think that lets say a foe is willing to enter a specific grid of air space then he would likly do this as stealthy as possible right?
In that case how can you be sure that BVR is giving you the right data?
Because ROE will provide the correct rules what to do in a specific senario right?
So how accurate is a radar and how accurate are the systems that are used in peace and wartimes to indentify a object?
Is there a way to mess these systems up? or to fool them?
Because you do not wanna shoot down a 747 with 400 people in it because your radar is telling you, he pilot this is a Foe warplane heading for a specific location.
1. In the case of very limited conflict (where Boing might fly) there is usually enough time to identify aircraft, and even if it is not - usually letting enemy in/out is much less important anyway.

2. In the case of full scale war, there are no "neutral" 747 or likes anyway nearby. They are either friend or foe. All friends have active IFF-transponder (so-called cooperative identification), or in case of occasional ally without IFF , just prior warning about flight path.

Active IFF's are almost impossible to fool, they are very reliable.

Non-cooperative identification are easer to fool if engines on friendly/enemy aircrafts are similar. This identification also is not reliable in ECM environment, and it only gives arcraft type and did not guanrantee what this aircraft is not enemy aircraft. I.e. it might identify an aircraft as F-16, but it will not guarantee it is not enemy F-16 (if enemy might have them ofc).

Non-cooperative identification also work very well against enemy, so own pilots can see which aircraft exactly there - i.e. F-16, F-18, Mig-29, A-10, T-22M, etc, Quite important information.

Advanced airforces usually try to invent both types of identification.
 

Beatmaster

New Member
1. In the case of very limited conflict (where Boing might fly) there is usually enough time to identify aircraft, and even if it is not - usually letting enemy in/out is much less important anyway.

2. In the case of full scale war, there are no "neutral" 747 or likes anyway nearby. They are either friend or foe. All friends have active IFF-transponder (so-called cooperative identification), or in case of occasional ally without IFF , just prior warning about flight path.

Active IFF's are almost impossible to fool, they are very reliable.

Non-cooperative identification are easer to fool if engines on friendly/enemy aircrafts are similar. This identification also is not reliable in ECM environment, and it only gives arcraft type and did not guanrantee what this aircraft is not enemy aircraft. I.e. it might identify an aircraft as F-16, but it will not guarantee it is not enemy F-16 (if enemy might have them ofc).

Non-cooperative identification also work very well against enemy, so own pilots can see which aircraft exactly there - i.e. F-16, F-18, Mig-29, A-10, T-22M, etc, Quite important information.

Advanced airforces usually try to invent both types of identification.
Thank you for the great reply
But lets say for a second that in a war situation a f-16 ( Or a general warplane) spot a foe...and the foe is without any doubt a target to shoot down, then how many time has the engaging pilot to take succes full action and how mutch time has the foe to get out of there in one piece ? or what can he do to get cover his escape?
Because when plane A detects plane B and he fires a a2a missle then what are the last options for plane B to survive this encounter?
Because detection system are just one part has a warplane also systems that can fool the attcker and get out of there?
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Thank you for the great reply
But lets say for a second that in a war situation a f-16 ( Or a general warplane) spot a foe...and the foe is without any doubt a target to shoot down, then how many time has the engaging pilot to take succes full action and how mutch time has the foe to get out of there in one piece ? or what can he do to get cover his escape?
Because when plane A detects plane B and he fires a a2a missle then what are the last options for plane B to survive this encounter?
Because detection system are just one part has a warplane also systems that can fool the attcker and get out of there?
Yes, fighter jets and other military platforms are equipped with self defence systems.

Air to air missiles primarily come in 2 varieties. Radar guided missiles and "infra-red" (IR) optically guided missiles. Radar guided missiles are typically longer ranged missiles, with IR missiles typically shorter ranged and more agile.

Fighters (decent ones anyway) are equipped with self protection jamming equipment and "chaff" (strips of metal foil deployed into the air around the aircraft) intended to jam or disrupt the enemy radar, so that the air to air missile cannot be guided. These are generally termed - Electronic Counter Measures (ECM).

Radar's and modern missiles however are equipped with Electronic Counter Counter Measures (ECCM), which resist the jamming efforts of the enemy aircraft, so it really becomes a contest of who is better, the radar/missile combo or the defensive ECM?

Other defensive options include low observability built into the airframe of the enemy jet. What most people call "stealth".

How a radar basically works is radar suite is fitted with a radio transmitter, a radio receiver and a radio signals processor.

The transmitter transmits a radio signal (the radar beam and they transmit quite a lot of them actually) which bounces back towards the radar system when it hits something. The rado signal bouncing off the object is known as a reflection and works the same way as a reflector on a bicycle - when light is shone onto it, it reflects the light, making the reflector "glow".

The receiver then receives the "bounced" return signal and the radar's signals processor is able to determine range (how far away the object is), bearing (what direction the objection is moving) altitude (what height the objection is) and speed (how fast the object is travelling) etc of the object, based on the known position of the transmitting platform and calculations of the time it took for the transmitted radio signal to bounce off the object and return to the radar suite.

Now, obviously for a fighter aircraft it is a benefit if your fighter is designed in such a way so that these radar beam are not reflected directly back to the transmitting radar, but rather in another direction so the radar receiver is unable to get a good return signal.

There are a number of different ways this is achieved. For simplicities sake, a flat metal plate is one of the best surfaces for reflecting a radar signal. Older fighter jets were made simply of metal and provided enormous radar reflectivity returns. They were very easy to track by radar.

So fighter designers began experimenting with different materials than metal to see what a modern fighter jet could be constructed from that provided the strength, or more, of metal, without the radar reflectivity. This research led to composite materials, which provide a significant reduction in radar reflectivity and most modern fighters are constructed significantly from these materials. They are also known as "radar absorbent material". (RAM).

What these materials do, as the name suggests, is absorb the radar signal, rather than reflect it, meaning that less of the radar beams are reflected back to the radar, making it harder for these aircraft to be tracked by radar.

Designers also discovered that by changing the shape of aircraft to specific shapes, they could also reduce the radar reflectivity of an aircraft, by "scattering" the signal in directions other than those which are optimal for the transmitting radar.

These ideas led to develop of the F-117 "stealth fighter" which demonstrate a radically different appearance and yes, flying qualities to other aircraft, but which also demonstrated an outstanding level of "stealth" and proved repeatedly, very difficult to track and engage by hostile defence systems. This is the aircraft I am talking about, the F-117:

http://www.product-reviews.net/wp-content/userimages/2008/03/f117-stealth.jpg

The other main means by which a missile can track aircraft is in the "infra-red" or ultra-violet (or both) spectrum of light (radiation). Some missiles are equipped with "staring arrays" not dissimilar in function to digital cameras which "see" in the infra-red/ultra-violet spectrums of light, which shows very hot parts of aircraft against the background radiation. Hence these missiles are sometimes known as "heat seekers". Here is an example of what I am talking about, what an IR missile sees:

http://www.ausairpower.net/000-ASRAAM-4A.jpg

Because of their "staring" method of seeking a target, the IR missiles are usually fairly short ranged (up to about 18k's). They are generally fast to be launched and are very agile because they have to perform very tight turns at high speed and at close range.

Good fighters possess methods by which they can defend against these missiles. The most common method is by the use of flares which are deployed by the aircraft around itself. These flares are tuned to match the heat characteristics of the aircraft carrying them in the hope that the missile will track the flares instead of the aircraft, allowing the aircraft that has deployed the flares, to manoevre (fly) out of the missiles path.

Aircraft also employ specific manoevres when missiles are fired at them. The reason for this is because air to air missiles are very fast, but in order to have agility and for the aircraft to be able to carry many weapons, they are relatively small by weapons standards. This means that the missile's rocket motor can only burn for a certain amount of time and missiles, particularly longer ranging missiles, fly a large proportion of their flight in a "glide" mode because their rocket motor has burnt all it's fuel.

The missile then has a lesser ability to manoeuvre, so what pilots try to do is fire their missiles at the enemy aircraft so that the missile engages the aircraft in what is known as a "no escape zone". Basically this means a portion of the missile's flight where it is extremely unlikely that an aircraft will be able to manoeuvre out of a missiles path.

As you can see therefore, there is a constant "battle" between designers of radar, missiles, aircraft and aircraft counter-measures (flares, chaff, jammers) and pilot tactics for supremacy in the air to air battle.

New tactics and equipment are devised constantly to counter new threats and aircraft are constantly in different energy states, have different fuel levels (more fuel you have, the faster you can go because you can use your afterburner more) etc.

Hopefully this gives some insight into these matters. It is a VERY complicated area...
 

Beatmaster

New Member
Yes, fighter jets and other military platforms are equipped with self defence systems.

Air to air missiles primarily come in 2 varieties. Radar guided missiles and "infra-red" (IR) optically guided missiles. Radar guided missiles are typically longer ranged missiles, with IR missiles typically shorter ranged and more agile.

Fighters (decent ones anyway) are equipped with self protection jamming equipment and "chaff" (strips of metal foil deployed into the air around the aircraft) intended to jam or disrupt the enemy radar, so that the air to air missile cannot be guided. These are generally termed - Electronic Counter Measures (ECM).

Radar's and modern missiles however are equipped with Electronic Counter Counter Measures (ECCM), which resist the jamming efforts of the enemy aircraft, so it really becomes a contest of who is better, the radar/missile combo or the defensive ECM?

Other defensive options include low observability built into the airframe of the enemy jet. What most people call "stealth".

How a radar basically works is radar suite is fitted with a radio transmitter, a radio receiver and a radio signals processor.

The transmitter transmits a radio signal (the radar beam and they transmit quite a lot of them actually) which bounces back towards the radar system when it hits something. The rado signal bouncing off the object is known as a reflection and works the same way as a reflector on a bicycle - when light is shone onto it, it reflects the light, making the reflector "glow".

The receiver then receives the "bounced" return signal and the radar's signals processor is able to determine range (how far away the object is), bearing (what direction the objection is moving) altitude (what height the objection is) and speed (how fast the object is travelling) etc of the object, based on the known position of the transmitting platform and calculations of the time it took for the transmitted radio signal to bounce off the object and return to the radar suite.

Now, obviously for a fighter aircraft it is a benefit if your fighter is designed in such a way so that these radar beam are not reflected directly back to the transmitting radar, but rather in another direction so the radar receiver is unable to get a good return signal.

There are a number of different ways this is achieved. For simplicities sake, a flat metal plate is one of the best surfaces for reflecting a radar signal. Older fighter jets were made simply of metal and provided enormous radar reflectivity returns. They were very easy to track by radar.

So fighter designers began experimenting with different materials than metal to see what a modern fighter jet could be constructed from that provided the strength, or more, of metal, without the radar reflectivity. This research led to composite materials, which provide a significant reduction in radar reflectivity and most modern fighters are constructed significantly from these materials. They are also known as "radar absorbent material". (RAM).

What these materials do, as the name suggests, is absorb the radar signal, rather than reflect it, meaning that less of the radar beams are reflected back to the radar, making it harder for these aircraft to be tracked by radar.

Designers also discovered that by changing the shape of aircraft to specific shapes, they could also reduce the radar reflectivity of an aircraft, by "scattering" the signal in directions other than those which are optimal for the transmitting radar.

These ideas led to develop of the F-117 "stealth fighter" which demonstrate a radically different appearance and yes, flying qualities to other aircraft, but which also demonstrated an outstanding level of "stealth" and proved repeatedly, very difficult to track and engage by hostile defence systems. This is the aircraft I am talking about, the F-117:

http://www.product-reviews.net/wp-content/userimages/2008/03/f117-stealth.jpg

The other main means by which a missile can track aircraft is in the "infra-red" or ultra-violet (or both) spectrum of light (radiation). Some missiles are equipped with "staring arrays" not dissimilar in function to digital cameras which "see" in the infra-red/ultra-violet spectrums of light, which shows very hot parts of aircraft against the background radiation. Hence these missiles are sometimes known as "heat seekers". Here is an example of what I am talking about, what an IR missile sees:

http://www.ausairpower.net/000-ASRAAM-4A.jpg

Because of their "staring" method of seeking a target, the IR missiles are usually fairly short ranged (up to about 18k's). They are generally fast to be launched and are very agile because they have to perform very tight turns at high speed and at close range.

Good fighters possess methods by which they can defend against these missiles. The most common method is by the use of flares which are deployed by the aircraft around itself. These flares are tuned to match the heat characteristics of the aircraft carrying them in the hope that the missile will track the flares instead of the aircraft, allowing the aircraft that has deployed the flares, to manoevre (fly) out of the missiles path.

Aircraft also employ specific manoevres when missiles are fired at them. The reason for this is because air to air missiles are very fast, but in order to have agility and for the aircraft to be able to carry many weapons, they are relatively small by weapons standards. This means that the missile's rocket motor can only burn for a certain amount of time and missiles, particularly longer ranging missiles, fly a large proportion of their flight in a "glide" mode because their rocket motor has burnt all it's fuel.

The missile then has a lesser ability to manoeuvre, so what pilots try to do is fire their missiles at the enemy aircraft so that the missile engages the aircraft in what is known as a "no escape zone". Basically this means a portion of the missile's flight where it is extremely unlikely that an aircraft will be able to manoeuvre out of a missiles path.

As you can see therefore, there is a constant "battle" between designers of radar, missiles, aircraft and aircraft counter-measures (flares, chaff, jammers) and pilot tactics for supremacy in the air to air battle.

New tactics and equipment are devised constantly to counter new threats and aircraft are constantly in different energy states, have different fuel levels (more fuel you have, the faster you can go because you can use your afterburner more) etc.

Hopefully this gives some insight into these matters. It is a VERY complicated area...
Omg ...thats what i call a crashcourse radar and warplane basic's.
You really did show of here..:cool:
Thx man.
 
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