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Qaher 313 New Iranian Fighter Jet

This is a discussion on Qaher 313 New Iranian Fighter Jet within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by simplex The plane is real. It is not a mock-up. Take a look at the hi-res version ...


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Old February 2nd, 2013   #31
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Originally Posted by simplex View Post
The plane is real. It is not a mock-up.
Take a look at the hi-res version of the cockpit photo attached.

1. Thin fiberglass walls with ribs exposed

2. Bare fiberglass matting visible behind the seat (painted white)

3. Total lack on any markings on the console.

4. Buttons on the center console that go all the way to the ground. Do you seriously think a pilot is going to reach his feet when he is strapped into a seat? You can barely reach your knees when in a multi-point harness.

5. Look at the shot of the pilot when he is seated. His knees are too far away from the console. This means that when seated, he cannot reach most of the controls on the console in front of him, especially the upper ones.

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Old February 2nd, 2013   #32
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If the aircraft is stopped its momentum is 0 (zero), its speed is zero, while the momentum of the pilot is 80 kg * m/s, supposing he moves at 1 m/s. The pilot communicates a part of its momentum to the plane which makes Q-313 to move with an average speed of 2 cm/s, quite visible.

If the plane moves with 600 km/h the same pilot moving at 1 m/s induces in the plane a parasitic average speed of 2 cm/s, same as before!

If you add 2 cm/s, lateral drift, with 166 m/s, the speed of the plane, you will get a vector that differ from the unperturbed speed of the plane in an insignificant way, the new speed of the aircraft being 166.0000012 m/s.

Uh...so, why is it that no other flying aircraft behaves like that ? I've been in the back of a Harrier T4 and that didn't go anywhere when I moved around in the cockpit - and I weigh a couple of Kg more than that

My *car* doesn't bob around like that when I get in and out of it...
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Old February 2nd, 2013   #33
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Again I state observsations several people have made, the motion of the pilot - pretty small ones at that - on the ground causes the airframe to visually move suggesting that the aircraft is INCREDIBLY light. How would you account for this?
A good plane is not heavy by itself (airframe + engine + electronics + wheels, etc.).
It is quite easy to make a light plane more stable by adding more fuel and weapons (payload).
Also, judging from this video:
Iran unveils new domestically built fighter jet - video | World news | guardian.co.uk
Q-313 does not seem to shake exaggeratedly for a plane of its size. I do not see anything unusual.
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Old February 2nd, 2013   #34
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Originally Posted by SpudmanWP View Post
Take a look at the hi-res version of the cockpit photo attached.

1. Thin fiberglass walls with ribs exposed

2. Bare fiberglass matting visible behind the seat (painted white)

3. Total lack on any markings on the console.

4. Buttons on the center console that go all the way to the ground. Do you seriously think a pilot is going to reach his feet when he is strapped into a seat? You can barely reach your knees when in a multi-point harness.

5. Look at the shot of the pilot when he is seated. His knees are too far away from the console. This means that when seated, he cannot reach most of the controls on the console in front of him, especially the upper ones.

Attachment 5773

Attachment 5772


No combining glass for a HUD either. Or a throttle that I can see ? Unless it's hidden behind the fibreglass nearest us but it looks like the seat is right up against that side of the aircraft for some odd reason. Gerry Anderson was better at this stuff...
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Old February 2nd, 2013   #35
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While we're talking about the F117, have a look at the size of the inlets on that aircraft and then have a look at the 313 - scaled across, the 313 has what looks like a quarter the area of the F117 - how's the engine get enough air ?
F-117 is a much larger plane belonging to a different size class.
This Iranian Qaher F-313 does not seem to weigh more than 4000 - 5000 kg fully loaded while F-117 weights 23,800 kg. Also F-117 is visible less aerodynamic than F-313 which means it needed powerful engines.
There is nothing wrong with Qaher F-313 from the point of view of air intakes.
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Old February 2nd, 2013   #36
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If you really think that level of detail and assumption of real world solid mechanics & conservation of momentum is accurate, then i'm not even going to bother explaining why it isn't. It'd be like trying to use basic algebra to solve questions involving Fourier transforms.

Exactly, a plane is heavy because it has those components in it. If - as you claim - it's a proper aircraft it would have all those components inside and therefore be HEAVY. It certainly shouldn't exhibit the sort of characteristics like jigging around when the pilot fiddles with a strap, something which - to me - would point to an inherently light aircraft on the whole.

Should note, what basis do you make the assumption that aircraft weighs 4000kg earlier? A Hawk trainer weighs something like 4,500kg empty.

EDIT: 4-5000kg fully loaded?! Ok, flat out challenge, I need to see accurate & reliable numbers for that, now.

Just going to add this in, Pucara turboprop is closer to 7000kg fully loaded.
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Old February 2nd, 2013   #37
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F-117 is a much larger plane belonging to a different size class.
So, if it's much smaller than an F117, where's the weapons bay ? We're back to where we were a page back, except you're now agreeing with me that this thing is quite small and I guess that means we're now on the same page with me stating there's no room for an internal weapons bay, plus fuel or an engine ?

And did you really just use force and momentum equations to suggest that an adult male walking at 1 m/s into a four ton jet would push the whole thing sideways by 2cm ?
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Old February 2nd, 2013   #38
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Originally Posted by SpudmanWP View Post
Take a look at the hi-res version of the cockpit photo attached.

1. Thin fiberglass walls with ribs exposed
...
4. Buttons on the center console that go all the way to the ground. Do you seriously think a pilot is going to reach his feet when he is strapped into a seat? ...

5. Look at the shot of the pilot when he is seated. His knees are too far away from the console. This means that when seated, he cannot reach most of the controls on the console in front of him, especially the upper ones.
1. As long as the plane is not supersonic its body can be made of fiberglass, carbon fiber and other composite materials. I do not believe Q-313 is intended for cruise speeds above 750 km/h (at sea level) so thermal stress is not significant.

4. The sit is rather low so the pilot can touch the buttons that go close to the floor.

5. Most of the controls are in the lower part of the cockpit so they can be reached by hand easily.

Also, the good resolution of the pictures shows that Q-313 is genuine. No matter how much you try to make mock-ups it will be impossible to build a credible aircraft.
If the plane had not been real Iranians would have come with some low resolution photos. On the other side they are not known to bluff.
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Old February 2nd, 2013   #39
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and points 2 & 3 of Spuds post you decided to avoid answering?

So you believe this aircraft to be subsonic only then? Please point me to something which explains this.

Also point me to something that supports your claim that a fully loaded one of these will be between 4 - 5000kg.
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Old February 2nd, 2013   #40
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2. Bare fiberglass matting visible behind the seat (painted white)

3. Total lack on any markings on the console.
2. Even they polish that surface to make it more appealing this will not influence in any way the characteristics of the plane.

3. There are markings. On the other side, how many markings do you have on your iPad?
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Old February 2nd, 2013   #41
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MiG-15 is also roughly the same size as Q-313 and it was a combat aircraft.
True, but the MiG-15 was a cockpit sitting on top of a jet engine, with some wings attached to it. This on the other hand has a very cool looking airframe. Something that wouldn't look out of place in a Sci-Fi flick. But the air intakes are tiny, as is the engine in the rear. The canards are almost bigger then the wings. And of course the cockpit not only looks very large, but also very far forward. If this were a real aircraft, there wouldn't be much room for a radar in front of it. Honestly this isn't even a good fake. The Iranians have MiG-29 airframes, and F-14 airframes. I'd think they could at least have looked at those before building this "fighter jet".
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Old February 2nd, 2013   #42
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So you believe this aircraft to be subsonic only then? Please point me to something which explains this.
F-117 was also subsonic.

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Also point me to something that supports your claim that a fully loaded one of these will be between 4 - 5000kg.
MiG-15 (about the same size as F-313) had:
Empty weight: 3,580 kg
Loaded weight: 4,960 kg
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Old February 2nd, 2013   #43
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True, but the MiG-15 was a cockpit sitting on top of a jet engine, with some wings attached to it. This on the other hand has a very cool looking ... But the air intakes are tiny,
Here are the two air intakes of Mig 15 (bottom picture):
File:Mig-15 schema.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
They are tiny also.
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And of course the cockpit not only looks very large, but also very far forward. If this were a real aircraft, there wouldn't be much room for a radar in front of it.
And what do you want to do with that (powerful) radar aboard a low speed stealth plane? Communicate your position and speed to the enemy to get hunted easily by supersonic fighters?
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Old February 2nd, 2013   #44
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More points (like I need to make them )

6. No hook or latch mechanism to hold the canopy closed during flight

7. The airspeed dial (upper left of console) redlines at 250-275 knots

8. No cockpit seal

9. Cockpit rim is about 1cm thick... not enough to be structurally sound.

On the issue of the seat, look again at the pilot who is actually sitting in the seat. In that position he cannot reach his feet or the console, even with the restraints loose.

The problem with making augments in support of this "fighter" being anything more than a mockup is that for a lot of us outside Iran and on this (and other boards), we've actually laid hands on actual current military hardware. We've seen 1st hand what a cockpit, landing gear, the skin, etc actualy look like and feel like.

This aint it.
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Old February 2nd, 2013   #45
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F-117 was also subsonic.


MiG-15 (about the same size as F-313) had:
Empty weight: 3,580 kg
Loaded weight: 4,960 kg
F-117 was a bomber, I thought this aircraft is down to be a 'fighter'? Unless that's all part of a clever deception plan, the most clever aspect being that it's made us think this aircraft is nothing more than a mockup . . .

If your figure is ONLY based on that it's kinda the same size as a MiG-15, then that's the final straw & it's safe to say i'm done with this thread. The MiG-15 would have had different materials, different airframe design, different powerplant, all of those things + others would have an effect on the airframe weight and most probably the MTOW of the aircraft.

If you judge it by size and size alone, then i'm done.

EDIT: Ok, now you're trying to justify that the aircraft doesn't need a high performance radar.
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