Potential flaw found in F-22A fighter jets

XEROX

New Member
Potential flaw found in F-22A fighter jets
P-I STAFF AND NEWS SERVICES
Lockheed Martin Corp.'s F-22A fighter jet may have a structural flaw that would require redesign or major modifications to most of the planes delivered to date, says Bill Young, chairman of a House defense panel.
Young, a Florida Republican who chairs a House subcommittee on defense spending, said he told Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne that he opposes buying any more of the $338 million planes until the problem is diagnosed and fixed.

The problem involves the aft fuselage, which comes from The Boeing Co., a major partner on the fighter jet. Boeing also supplies the wings for the F-22A. That Boeing work is done mostly at the company's Developmental Center across from Boeing Field in south Seattle.
Both the Air Force and Lockheed agree there's a potential flaw that must be investigated. The Air Force said flight safety is not at issue and no redesign or modification is necessary.

Young, in an interview, said the concern is that an engine casing made of titanium may not meet Air Force standards.
"There's been a specification deviation and they are evaluating it," he said.
"The engine casing is a significant part of the structure of the aircraft," Young said. "If it turns out that it's not being manufactured to specification it could be a serious issue but they don't know the answer yet."
Boeing subcontractors make the titanium parts.

The Air Force, in an e-mailed statement, said Lockheed, the world's largest defense contractor, discovered the "anomaly" in December, the same month the service declared the F-22A ready for combat.
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Its already been made operational and now this,
 

steve33

Member
It,s hard to believe that after all the Time, money and effort they wouldn,t find a fault like this till now.
 

Whiskyjack

Honorary Moderator / Defense Professional / Analys
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting $338 million, that is a lot of money per A/C.
 

Michael RVR

New Member
Yeah, i think people artificially inflate the price when they're bashing something.

I was under the impression it was only(!) around $150m each.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Michael RVR said:
Yeah, i think people artificially inflate the price when they're bashing something. I was under the impression it was only(!) around $150m each.
If all the F-22's development costs are taken into account, each of the 183 to be produced would cost about US$350m each. However, many of the technolgies developed for the aircraft will flow down to the JSF, UCAV and other programs, so it's not really a fair assessment. The final batch of 40 aircraft procured by the USAF cost about US$130-$150m each in non-recurring flyaway prices, and Lockheed have said if a further batch were to be ordered, these could be done for about US$100m each. The aircraft always gets cheaper at the end of a production run than it was at the start, as most of the non-recurring costs have been absorbed.

scorpios said:
this means more spending on the Raptors.

If the fault is found to be Boeing's or Lockheed Martin's, then the USAF wont pay a cent for it to be rectified. It may be that the fault is not too severe, or it can be repaired at the aircraft's first deep maintenance period, therefore not adversely affecting operations.

Magoo
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Alphonse said:
What is the unit cost of the JSF?
That's a question which is difficult to answer. The average non-recurring flyaway cost in 2002 dollars for an F-35A is US$45m, and US$55m for the F-35B and 'C'. However, that doesn't mean any customers will actually pay that amount for their aircraft. If you buy at the early end of the production run, you'll probably pay more per aircraft as the development costs, tooling etc are absorbed, and if you buy late, you'll probably pay less as the development costs have already been amortised.

You can easily double the flyaway cost of an aircraft in a 100-aircraft fleet when you take into account through life support, base infrastructure, simulators, training and other costs, although Lockheed Martin contends that the aircraft will be much cheaper to support that its predecessors.

The cost of early production aircraft is one of the bases of Carlo Kopp and Peter Goon's argument that A$12bn wont buy 100 JSFs, as we're buying into the program early so are likely to pay alot more than US$45m per aircraft for our first two tranches. On this point, I tend to lean towards their point of view - we'll be lucky to get 80 aircraft with all the associated infrastructure and support costs for that money.

However, additional funding may come into the AIR6000 program from other programs because it is likely the JSF will be able to perform functions the ADF is yet to dream of, and that may be a saving grace for the "100 aircraft" we are said to need. E.g, the ISR capability of the JSF is comparable with that of the AP-3C Orion, except of course for its range and persistance. However, if the 19-strong AP-3C fleet were to be partially replaced by, say, 10-12 Global Hawks or Mariner UAVs, money from the AIR7000 program could be diverted to acquire an additional squadron of JSFs which could potentially perform the manned element of AIR7000.

Magoo
 
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410Cougar

New Member
Magoo said:
If the fault is found to be Boeing's or Lockheed Martin's, then the USAF wont pay a cent for it to be rectified. It may be that the fault is not too severe, or it can be repaired at the aircraft's first deep maintenance period, therefore not adversely affecting operations.

Magoo
Bingo! Everyone always thinks that the gov't will have to pay for a company's mistakes. Not so. The Raptor has achieved IOC (AF Monthly Feb. 2006 pg. 16) already and that status hasn't changed since this announcement. Don't expect it to either.

As for what could potentially replace any P3's, look to the P8. When, I have no idea, but probably in the next 10 years or so. Given the number of airlines succumbing to bankruptcy, there'll be alot of 737's out there to work with instead of having to build new ones.

Attila
 

Kurt Plummer

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Alphonse,

From early in the program (1994ish 'Air International' reporting), the F-35 was 'supposed to be' 28, 32 and 35 million dollars for the A, B and C respectively.

Congress promptly cancelled the development effort, officially because they didn't like the Air Services pulling another LWF 'no really, they're not for production!' X-plane shennanigan. Unofficially because, pigs that they are, they recognized a license to print money when the saw it and were disturbed that they hadn't been by-district-bribed cut in on it.

In a few more years of negotiations, things 'hardened up' as people reached across partisan politics, under the table.

Yet as early as 1997, the GAO and CBO were advising slow downs in the F-35 program because materials were not considered ready and much of the 'fallout' systems technology from the F-22 was itself unproven because it's own EMD period had turned into a paper chase after a decade of expeditionary ops and one FOOL of a test pilot more or less ensured that there would be no flying prototype hardware before the initial squadron IOC (1998) had long passed.

These estimable fellows were saying 73-78 million each. And they were doubtful it could be kept so low.

Beltway Bandit 'institute' writers such as Michael O'Hanlon got on the bandwagon somewhere inbetween, predicting 55 million for the AF Baseline and 65 for the Naval.

This went on until AfSec Roche stated, in the October 2001 SDD program win announcement, that the baseline would be between 45 and 50 million dollars. When the reporter went on to ask if this was for any and all or one variant in particular he swept on to the next question without further comment.

i.e. In less than six years the cost had doubled for what was likely the cheapest variant. Something now quantity or inflationary adjustments could justify.

Yet nobody cared, nobody said: "Hey wait, lets plug in a few more billion to put Boeing back into the PWSC shortlist until Lockheed Martin proves they've got both programs under control!".

NOBODY wanted a backup plan. Or a 'First We Try, Then We Trust', incentive towards corporate honesty.

Even more so, on the eve of GWOT nobody would question the ethics or economic downturn effects of Presidential claims of Iraqi WMD as a precursor to entry into an ME war (now 600 billion and counting). Because that would have meant questioning why we couldn't find the ONE MAN that had created 9/11. As a law enforcement action.

And of course the Congressional Watch Dogs were right, for by late 2002 and into '03, rumors began flying that the jet was _seriously_ overweight. And still the PDR was 'passed with flying colors' without this weight being firmly identified or the nature of fixes defined (something only achieved by late mid 2005).

Truth be told, within DOD rules, you _cannot_ do this because the moldine hardening is actually part of a feedback loop decision tree which requires all unknown variables (as risks) to be quantified with solutions visible before the program manager can sign off.

It was indeed the 'weight vs. stealth' LIES which drove the A-12 into a contractual default in which it was discovered that the 'party of the first part' had engaged in a Deficiency (commiting to a program knowing that insufficient funds were present to fulfill it) and specifically a _Fraud In The Inducement_ (Allowing a contractor to maintain a bid based on faulty data knowingly supplied) based on underbilling the weight. Weight being the first order determinator of cost and complexity.

A fiduciary mistake (and felony crime) which later cost We The People FIVE BILLION DOLLARS when the Fed was not quick enough to CYA and GDFW/MacDac sued and were awarded damages and remuneration for work done in a federal court determination of 'termination for convenience not default' on the Avenger II by the DOD.

A situation which resulted in the Captan Nobody as SPO CMIC going to jail while the SecDef who knew exactly what was happening before he declared that the program be cancelled, went on to become our serving VP.

As such it is no wonder that the people tend to 'mutter and move on a lot' when price is mentioned in the current JSF program debates. Not least because the program itself, having started out at some 2,978 aircraft, is now down to about 1,763 + 140 + 170. (2,073 total, USAF/MC/N). Or roughly 70 percent of the original inventory buy.

The USAF which is being flown into the poor house pretending to do their job in Iraq and AfG are particularly urgent to make an even /deeper/ cut, to about 1,100 airframes. Which would drop the total buy to about 1,410 airframes. Or 47% of the original total.

And Congress won't allow it. Why? Because the cutoff on numbers is about 1,600 airframes before you see a sudden split between costs and buy totals, _exactly_ as occured on the F-22 (which would be 74-78 million each by the 335th airframe and was 'single unit fixed purchased' for 117 million dollars in FY-2003 dollars as a reward to Lockheed Martin for production line streamlining).

While a debt riddled Hill is /desparate/ (despite mounting evidence to the contrary on customer issues) to make this the next F-16.

The chief argument against which fallacy is that the real PAUC or Program Acquisition Unit Cost 'as now presented' (when supposed competition has effectively killed all other keep'em honest options) is about 104 million dollars per airframe.

And the EU'ians are busy building a 40-60 million dollar UCAV program around Swedish, French and German 'common not joint' export capabilities. Forget navalization. Forget STOVL. _Forget Pilot Training_. Any dictatorial runt can have a netcentric stealth bomber. Once BAe sells her FACO secrets as Janes predicts.

At which point, it becomes urgently necessary to realize that the JSF is NOT one aircraft but _three_, sharing a named father but not equal child$upport. And so it's R&D tab is /never/ going to be as streamlined as it would for just-one-jet.

Even as it also starts to become clear that everybody assuming that they should get significant contract percentages of the program (as technology base access as well as fuzzy-dice subsystem production) is ruining the overall effort to keep costs down and profits in-country.

Yet, for me, the REAL CRIME ONGOING HERE, is quite simply that nobody is helping us out in Iraq sufficient to be worth of Stealth. Yet the combination of Stealth and small-IAM is what is allowing these massive cuts in the overal _U.S._ inventory purchase.

Which in turn raises the 'layoff the R&D on the export clients' costs beyond the tennable. Even as it replaces lost U.S. inventory (and thus profit margin) with penny-ante foreign allotments on the order of 20-60 jets per country.

Trade 100's, give away stealth for free, gain questionable 'joint force' capabilites with theater-restricted city states that buy perhaps a few tens of replacements.

And assume that the price is not going to continue to get so much worse that NOBODY wants any.

That's an awful lot of Lunchmeat (Baloney Inc.) to swallow.

CONCLUSION:
1. Forget all the yells and screams. These are just the lawyers for the various customers trying to get their clients out of a runaway chain reaction on JSF costs vs. increasingly vaporous sales opportunities.

2. Understand that what destroyed the 'original JSF' (TFX) program scalars (some 600 produced and only about 300 flyable) was the fact that the USN pulled out of the F-111B side of buy. Destroying economies of scale.

3. And it was THIS SAME PHENOMENON (some say the AF getting even) which obliterated all hope for the A-12/ATA effort to bear fruit as the USAF knew the numbers as well if not better than the USN did and simply 'weighted them out' on a 10,000ft runway and 12,000lb payload requirement. The Marines having already bailed, the resulting PAUC skyrocketed to an astounding 176-183 million dollars per airframe and thus unaffordable as even an A-6 (10 planes per deck, just like the F-35C will be) replacement.

IMO, what you are seeing here (nearly 50 years after you'd assume we had learned our lesson) is effectively the collapse of a pyramid scheme in which nominally sidebar issues are being used-to-excuse participants before the last man at the table is once more left with the tab. That poor sod being John Q. Public, U.S. Taxpayer At Large of course.

What IRKS ME is that we feel we should 'try to pretend' to continue the farce if not fraud by subletting program elements to foreign countries who WILL DEFAULT when the cheap-fighter guarantee ramps up from the improbable to the impo$$ible. An act which will merely serve to pay them to help build U.S. inventory (IMO, less than 700 airframes before this is all over) while at the same time proliferating VLO composite technology and high datarate network avionics systems to and through their industry to further escalate the nominal (non existent) threat base.

So that we can 'declare a need!' for the next followon.

BOHICA doesn't even come close to describing my disgust.


KPl.


LINKS-
Issues For Congress (Congressional Research Service F-35 Report On Costs)
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL30563.pdf

Tactical Air Integration Plan (USN/MC Force Structuring Issues)
http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RS21488.pdf

Program Chief Admiral Steidle Says... 1,600 or Bust.
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1997/articles/apr_97/apr97_01/apr2a_97.html

England Orders QDR Consolidation (the lie from the other side of Procurement)
http://www.defensenews.com/channel.php?C=americamore

A-12, A Brief Precis`
http://www.afa.org/magazine/1991/0491down.asp
 
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