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Philippine Air Force Discussions and Updates

This is a discussion on Philippine Air Force Discussions and Updates within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Ananda Build your foundation first, then talk about getting/operating fast jets operations latter on. And hopefully a ...


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Old April 6th, 2012   #436
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Build your foundation first, then talk about getting/operating fast jets operations latter on.
And hopefully a couple of new 3D long range mobile radars for air surveillance.

[General warning to all in this thread: Kindly follow the forum rules and do not spam this thread with nonsense, as there are a number of posts here that are lacking in thought and quality (one-liners are frowned upon). If you have an opinion feel free to share it but remember to provide sources for your facts, where possible. And if you are faced with a source challenge, please either provide the source or have the good graces to retract your prior statement in your next post.

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Last edited by OPSSG; April 6th, 2012 at 10:13 AM.
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Old April 7th, 2012   #437
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If only the Phillipines had better relations with China. China has plenty of advanced trainers I think would suit them, the JF-17 also, all at a cost effective prices.

[Mod Edit: One day ago, the Mod Team have given a general warning not to spam this thread with one-liners or other nonsense. And within 24 hours of the warning, you promote your favourate aircraft, the JF-17 as cost effective without any supporting source or understanding of local requirements/deficiencies (as previously discussed in this thread).

If you have an opinion feel free to share it but remember to provide sources for your facts. We hereby issue a source challenge. Provide a source that show the features and "cost" of the JF-17 (and explain if the concepts of recurring flyaway cost, weapons systems cost or unit procurement cost apply to the figures you cite) given that you claim it is cost effective. If possible, provide the estimates for lifecycle costs.

To get you started on cost comparisons, here is a link: "Estimating the Real Cost of Modern Fighter Aircraft". Kindly reply to the source challenge within 2 days. ]

Last edited by OPSSG; April 7th, 2012 at 11:19 PM.
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Old April 18th, 2012   #438
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Apparently Russia has just offered the Yak-130 to the Philippines, for their tender for 6 combat-trainers. They will be competing with the M-346, and the T/A-50 Golden Eagle.

Lenta.ru:

Honestly Russian companies generally don't do well in competitive tenders (for a number of reasons, lack of experience being one of them). What do you guys think about this attempt to move in on the Philippines defense market?
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Old April 18th, 2012   #439
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From GMA News : Italy's Alenia seeks to supply DND up*to P6.87-B worth of aircraft | GMA News Online | The Go-To Site for Filipinos Everywhere

Sensible thinking seems prevail with Philippines Air Force. Getting Lift first (whether Korean or Italian ones), will provide PAF with the long need foundation for Fast Jets operation after long time of neglect.
I believe the PN is working on some type of landing vessel with Korea via Indonesia? If I got this correctly, maybe we can get a better deal with T-50s?

Although, the current trainers I think are from Alenia as well. So well see...

I don't really favor one over the other. I just hope we get back into flying jets VERY soon, be it a LIFT or a multi-role fighter like those surplus KFirs and F-16s!
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Old April 18th, 2012   #440
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Honestly Russian companies generally don't do well in competitive tenders (for a number of reasons, lack of experience being one of them).
True, but I think they've come a long way since the early 1990's, when Russian companies at defence shows were handing out black and white photocopies as brochures for their products [I still have black and white brochures for the Aphid and Archer missiles]. I was recently at a defence exhibition and the Russian salesman were more happy to talk to you and appeared enthusiastic. Previously, from my personal experience, most Russian salesman at company booths in defence shows looked gloomy and were more than happy to hand out some posters and brochures, in the hope that you might go away and not pester them with any questions about their products. Granted, language was a major problem.

If I recall correctly, an offer was first made in the late 1990's to suppy the PAF with Fulcrums, with payment to be made half cash and barter for certain items.
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Old May 9th, 2012   #441
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Looks like their focus switched from jets to boats that can help them patrol their seas.

I pity the Philippines. I do believe that they're the rightful owners of Scarborough Shoal but they can't even protect it.

They should also purchase some jets that can scramble towards Scarborough when needed. China has them ready.
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Old May 17th, 2012   #442
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I hear Russia is looking to sell off 18 Ex Indian SU-30 fighters and If I were the Philippines, I would be snapping them up real fast. Since Russia wants to off load used SU-30's and the Philippines are looking for a fighter. I think it's a win-win for both Russia and the Philippines.
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Old May 17th, 2012   #443
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SU-30's are a big and expensive jet to run. Furthermore these specific SU-30's were previously rejected by the Indian Air Force. Whilst they would provide reasonable capability, they may not be the best solution.

Sweden for instance has a fleet of low hour but retired JAS-39A/B Gripen aircraft (about 80 are available I believe) which would also provide good capability but would be infinitely cheaper to operate than an SU-30 fleet...

Your Country could then join the Gripen NG development program in years to come when these aircraft require an MLU and obtain a state of the art jet as a partner, rather than a mere customer...
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Old May 17th, 2012   #444
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SU-30's are a big and expensive jet to run. Furthermore these specific SU-30's were previously rejected by the Indian Air Force. Whilst they would provide reasonable capability, they may not be the best solution.

Sweden for instance has a fleet of low hour but retired JAS-39A/B Gripen aircraft (about 80 are available I believe) which would also provide good capability but would be infinitely cheaper to operate than an SU-30 fleet...

Your Country could then join the Gripen NG development program in years to come when these aircraft require an MLU and obtain a state of the art jet as a partner, rather than a mere customer...
And it bears emphasising the costs outside of the purchase - maintaining and sustaining a complex fast jet capability is incredibly expensive, and I don't see the evidence for the Philippines being in the position to do this (no offence to anyone). Spare parts, through-life support, etc. Then there's training of both ground and air crews, and all the other associated personnel and equipment... it might look like a cheap deal on the surface, but there's a whole lot of other costs that aren't as immediately apparent.

There's been a lot of suggestions as to what platform the Philippines should buy but very little addressing the above issues.
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Old May 17th, 2012   #445
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From this :President Mulls Buying New Jets | The Manila Bulletin Newspaper Online

Seems the Philipines President finaly realise that acquiring F-16 even with similar grant scheme that US give Indonesia is not a 'cheap' business. The administarations finaly realise that the price of upgrading the F-16 will fall up to USD 800 mio (that the price that Indonesia has to preapared), to make those 'used' F-16 still a capable Aircraft up to 2020+ environment.

From what I read on previous info, the PAF brass never intended for F-16. The F-16 only come out as alternative by Philipine President that 'seems' demand Philipines got the same 'grant' scheme that Indonesia got from US, without realising the prices that have to be prepared to upgrade the F-16.

Anyway, from this interview, Philipines seems prepared to get two sq for USD 800 mio. Indonesia got USD 400 mio deal for 1 sq of TA-50. I tend to believe the Philipine President aimed for similar deal with ROK for TA-50.

USD 800 mio can get 2 sq of TA-50, and since this is a LIFT/Light Fighters catagory, the other 'additional' Investment that PAF need to prepared for soft and hard Infrastructure supporting TA-50 operations can be 'less' expensive than preparing the Infrastructures for F-16. At least that's based on TNI-AU experiences.

Flankers ? well TNI-AU has to perpared twice the costs for operating Flankers than F-16. I believe the PAF brass know from beginning this kind of Investment needed for operating Fast Jets, and opted for LIFT/Light Fighters type. The civilian politicians side tracking that, but seems finaly realise the error.

Democracy tend to let some civilian politicians which do not know anything on operating an Armed Force to side tracked the procurement process of Armed Forces including Air Force. Why then just let the professional decide it, and those politicians only have to monitored the process.
But then, that's when you got 'honest politicians' and honesty is a rare thing in politics anywhere .
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Old May 17th, 2012   #446
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There is also the question of politics. The Philippines is very dependent on the U.S. for diplomatic support, military aid and for security against external threats and in the unlikely event of the Philippine government selecting the Su-30, would come under intense pressure from Uncle Sam to ditch the deal and buy American. Politics aside, from the viewpoint of practicality and cost effectiveness, the Gripen seems the perfect choice - as Bonza pointed out.
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Old May 17th, 2012   #447
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The problem with the The Philippines is that they need to come up with a sizable Air force that is similar to Ecuador Air force,Chilean Air Force & Peruvian Air Force. If the the Philippines can take a page or lesson from the Ecuador Air force,Chilean Air Force & Peruvian Air Force that built a sizable Air force. The Philippines can have a sizable Air force that can defend itself based upon the Ecuador Air force,Chilean Air Force & Peruvian Air Force.

If I were the Philippines, I would look more at the T/A-50 and F/A-50 as a LIFT aircraft with getting either a new or used JAS-39 Gripen or get a used Mirage F-1 or Mirage 2000 that the French want to unload to replace theirs with a Rafele. The other option would be to keep the T/A-50 and F/A-50 and look at getting a used MIG-29 or MIG-35 from Russia.

As for CAS, COIN bird and basic trainer, I would go with a Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano or the Yakovlev Yak-130. The Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano, It's a proven platform and perfect for the Philippines environment. For their current C-130, they can get an upgrade to Tanker transport version of a C-130.

For AEW&C, I would go with either th SAAB Erieye radar system with a Saab 340 AEW&C or go with the EADS CASA C-295 AEW or the Boeing 737 AEW&C or the Beriev A-50.

For Air defense, I would look at Israel's Arrow missile system or the MIM-104 Patriot missile system or the NASAMS missile system.

[General warning to all in this thread: Kindly follow the forum rules and do not spam this thread with wish list nonsense, as there are a number of posts here that are lacking in thought and quality (a laundry list of what to buy without regard to national defence budgets and prior track record are frowned upon). If you have an opinion feel free to share it but remember to provide sources for your facts, where possible.

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Last edited by OPSSG; May 19th, 2012 at 07:24 AM.
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Old May 17th, 2012   #448
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The problem with the The Philippines is that they need to come up with a sizable Air force that is similar to Ecuador Air force,Chilean Air Force & Peruvian Air Force. If the the Philippines can take a page or lesson from the Ecuador Air force,Chilean Air Force & Peruvian Air Force that built a sizable Air force. The Philippines can have a sizable Air force that can defend itself based upon the Ecuador Air force,Chilean Air Force & Peruvian Air Force.

If I were the Philippines, I would look more at the T/A-50 and F/A-50 as a LIFT aircraft with getting either a new or used JAS-39 Gripen or get a used Mirage F-1 or Mirage 2000 that the French want to unload to replace theirs with a Rafele. The other option would be to keep the T/A-50 and F/A-50 and look at getting a used MIG-29 or MIG-35 from Russia.

As for CAS, COIN bird and basic trainer, I would go with a Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano or the Yakovlev Yak-130. The Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano, It's a proven platform and perfect for the Philippines environment. For their current C-130, they can get an upgrade to Tanker transport version of a C-130.

For AEW&C, I would go with either th SAAB Erieye radar system with a Saab 340 AEW&C or go with the EADS CASA C-295 AEW or the Boeing 737 AEW&C or the Beriev A-50.

For Air defense, I would look at Israel's Arrow missile system or the MIM-104 Patriot missile system or the NASAMS missile system.
All those things are great, but capability (ie: the sum of the parts) can only effectively be delivered when everything is in place.

Bonza is absolutely correct in his earlier post and while a need to address the threats you see may exist, does the funding or wherewithal to address them also exist?

The Phillipines has a very low funding base for it's Defence Forces. If they had the funding base that Singapore enjoys, you might get close to what you're thinking of here...
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Old May 18th, 2012   #449
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The problem with the The Philippines is that they need to come up with a sizable Air force that is similar to Ecuador Air force,Chilean Air Force & Peruvian Air Force.
What the PAF needs and what the government can afford are 2 very profoundly different things. As far as I can tell, the PAF is also in urgent need of ground based radars. Does anyone here know if the PAF has any in operation or does it rely on commercial radars for coverage? No point in investing in fancy gear when it hasn't got its basics sorted out. I believe that at present, there is a much more pressing requirement for MPAs, radar, UAVs and transports rather than fighters. Despite all the recent news about China and the Spratleys, war is not about to erupt. The PAF has a lot of problems but its inability to deal with marauding foreign fighters in its airspace is not currently one of them.

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For Air defense, I would look at Israel's Arrow missile system or the MIM-104 Patriot missile system or the NASAMS missile system.
Again, the PAF needs to start with the basics, at the moment the PAF doesn't even have MANPADs and alerting assets, how can anyone expect stuff like Patriot to be bought? There isn't even a basic AD network in place.
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Old May 18th, 2012   #450
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What the PAF needs and what the government can afford are 2 very profoundly different things. As far as I can tell, the PAF is also in urgent need of ground based radars. Does anyone here know if the PAF has any in operation or does it rely on commercial radars for coverage? No point in investing in fancy gear when it hasn't got its basics sorted out. I believe that at present, there is a much more pressing requirement for MPAs, radar, UAVs and transports rather than fighters. Despite all the recent news about China and the Spratleys, war is not about to erupt. The PAF has a lot of problems but its inability to deal with marauding foreign fighters in its airspace is not currently one of them.



Again, the PAF needs to start with the basics, at the moment the PAF doesn't even have MANPADs and alerting assets, how can anyone expect stuff like Patriot to be bought? There isn't even a basic AD network in place.
With all due respect to Col Sturm, why would the PAF needs to start with the basics? Understand they don't have any airforce if you can call them that at all, but would it be possible for their AF personnel to be trained in a very expeditious way so that in a very short period they may learn to fly the multi-role aircrafts? Also, I've learned by now by reading all these comments and posts that the Philippine government doesn't have the financial resources to finance the acquisition of these sophisticated aircrafts, weapon systems and sub-systems. However, just based on my humble opinion, if friendly countries are willing to provide loans predicated by the vast untapped natural resources of the country, that the Philippines may be able to acquire these weapons systems in short order?
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