This is a discussion on Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by SABRE
I think Israeli F-16s of Block 50C/D have AESA Radar. They have the dorsal spine as ...
I think Israeli F-16s of Block 50C/D have AESA Radar. They have the dorsal spine as well...the pic is available at f-16.net
PAF can also go for the similar coustomization. But most of the F-16 will be basic i guess.
The Israeli Suffas use Customized EW and Navigation and i think advanced flight and mission management system systems that replaces the original LM approved systems ELbit provides these equipments. the communications systems include a Rafael UHF/VHF radio and an HF radio, Elta satellite communications and an IAI integrated tactical video data link. All these systems are substitutable with either french or Swedish or american systems that LM would integrate into the AC according to the Customization package chosen by PAF.
I think the Flight control systems are not differnt at all (not too sure if they use PowerPC processors). So yeah you can basically have the exact same thing that the Israeli's got but with the American systems in them. i personally think the F-16i are basically the customized variants of the Block 52+ with high level of israeli input ie indigenous solutions. So you can all the next PAF F-16, F-16p lol!!
Well, Well, Now we have a torrent of in depth information - it will take me a while to digest! Thanks to the F16 scholars - Adsh, Highsea and the webmaster - Umair's return awaited eagerly, hopefully with some news on spec. and the final numbers.
One of my questions still remains unanswered, and that is:
For the price of a Rafale (present costs, and not when a cheaper multi role export version is available), could we not buy a Desert Falcon E/F? The published prices of both match somewhat? but how do their specs compare? Is not the AESA Radar still a pie in the sky for Rafale and off the shelf for Block 60 Falcons?
Furthermore, the price is not the only factor; it is the total cost of ownership. French A/C are not only expensive, but they charge exorbitant prices for spares (Pres. Musharraf’s comments, that Mirage plastic parts are more expensive than Gold - literally) surely we could save bags on training and maintenance. Also in a tight bind again with that most unreliable of allies, perhaps we could come and go with UAE on (parts and technical info), as a friendly country. Do you not think Turkey and other friendly countries helped us throughout the long embargo years?
I appreciate the downside of putting all your eggs, in one hell of an undependable basket. And I am an old and ardent advocate of Rafale and trust French (as long as you have cash in your pocket), but with the sole export user, the French could hold us over the barrel on spares prices, and if there are no other users, for financial reasons they could close down the manufacturing. Whereas we know the F16’s will be supported for a long time to come.
Your right about that long time to come part, for sure.
Yep, I live in Toulon and often see the air wing, nice aircraft but France is not making a smart decison to continue with a model that no has no other customers, well at least the Govt ordered 56 a few months ago, even the Gripen would be a better deal. Overall though the F-16 is a fine choice, I am sure a PL-8 or 11 could be fitted in a seperate launch mode, I don't think it'd be impossible.
I am sure a PL-8 or 11 could be fitted in a seperate launch mode, I don't think it'd be impossible.
I doubt that would be allowed, PAF won't get the necessary clearance to Integrate Chinese Missiles simply because you'd have Chinese Engineers poking around F-16C/D which would make US uneasy about the whole deal. The US afew years back held PAF back from integrating the SD-10 on the F-16 fleet, so i'm sure you'd see restrictions coming with the new deal.
If you want to save money you can purchase a set number of the AC with AESA Radar system and the rest of them can be equipped with an indigenous Radar the Italian variants. There are other sources you can go and get your EW systems that could be installed on the F-16.
The israelis saved Cash by procuring there own stuff for the Suffa like the terrain mapping system an advance feature in the Block 60, which was included in ths suffa, thanks to Rafael. They also started coproduction of the AN/APG-68(V)9. So you see there are ways of saving money and getting something similar to the F-16E/F obviously you wouldn't get the Structural Modification of the Block 60 and the newer Avionic systems. but you can have something worth while.
...so the Plan is to introduce the AESA radar into the Block 52, you will need the Dorsal spine in this configuration since the Radar's liquid cooling system is housed in it.
The secondary ECS for the APG-80 is located in the dorsal spine on two-seaters only. On the single seaters, it is located in the vertical fin fairing. I don't think there are any obstacles to putting the APG-80 into Block 50/52 AC as they are currently configured.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabre
I think Israeli F-16s of Block 50C/D have AESA Radar. They have the dorsal spine as well...the pic is available at f-16.net
PAF can also go for the similar coustomization. But most of the F-16 will be basic i guess.
All of Israel's Block 40 and Block 50 F-16D's have the enlarged spine. The avionics installed is not public information, but it it assumed to carry Wild Weasel equipment and some bomb guidance hardware integrated into the WSO's side stick controller. All of the new Israeli F-16's have the APG-68(v)9 radar.
The enlarged spine adds about 30 cu.ft. of avionics space, but it is not specific to any particular piece of hardware. It can hold jamming equipment, countermeasures, etc, and is only installed on the two-seater AC (D and F versions).
Last edited by highsea; May 29th, 2005 at 12:21 PM.
Yeah the Secondary Environmental System are in the Dorsal spine, is the APG-80's Liquid cooling system part of the Secondary ECS.I wouldn't have a clue!!
Oh by the way the Entire Block 60 was built out of Off the shelf tech, even the source codes were rewritten in the Open standard C++. so the entire project has only two US gov input the DOD's Five Encryption algorithms and the Aircrew training. the Engineers are going to be trained by LM. I doubt the source codes would be available to anyone including the Israelis the Flight controls and the Fire-controls are probably the Hardest source-codes to bargain for.
Yeah the Secondary Environmental System are in the Dorsal spine, is the APG-80's Liquid cooling system part of the Secondary ECS.I wouldn't have a clue!!
ECS= Environmental Control System. Yes, this is the cooling system for the APG-80.
Quote:
Honeywell Wins Lockheed Martin’s Secondary Environmental Control System and the HG9550 Radar Altimeter for F-16 Block 60
PARIS AIR SHOW, France, June 16, 2001 -- Honeywell [NYSE: HON] announced today that it has been awarded a contract by Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, Texas, to provide the secondary environmental control system (ECS) and the HG9550 radar altimeter for the F-16 Block 60 and future production aircraft.
Whereas the primary ECS provides cooling for the aircraft’s avionics and cockpit, the secondary ECS provides most of the cooling for the radar system. The secondary ECS uses digital electronic controls, air bearing turbomachinery and subfreezing heat exchanger technologies integrated with a liquid transport loop to cool the radar system. The secondary ECS is integrated with the primary aircraft’s ECS and shares some hardware commonality and backup functions.
As I said, it is located in the spine on the two-seaters. 55 of the UAE's Block 60's are "E" models- single seaters. Since these AC do not have the full dorsal spine, you can't put the Secondary ECS system there! That's why it's located in the tail fairings on these versions.
From the December 2003 Flight International (I believe the same article you previously quoted, please provide sources!):
Quote:
Space is at a premium in the F-16, and the dorsal spine developed for the two-seater is fully used in the UAE's F-16F, housing the secondary environmental-control system (ECS) that provides liquid cooling to the active-array radar, as well as the engine start controller, datalink radio, crash data recorder, and EW receiver, aft transmitter and chaff/flare dispensers.
In the single-seater, the secondary ECS is mounted in an enlarged fin fairing.
In other words, the spine and fairings on the block 60 are the same as the block 50- there is no reason the APG-80 cannot be fitted on block 50's.
Here is a picture of a UAE F-16E:
Last edited by highsea; May 29th, 2005 at 04:20 PM.
So to get APG-80 AESA Radar we need to get this spine on Block-50/52+ as well?
& cant the spine just be fitted internaly, externaly it gives away F-16s looks ?
________________ "It is better to accept an end with a horror then face horror with no end." - Karl Von Clausewitz
So to get APG-80 AESA Radar we need to get this spine on Block-50/52+ as well?
& cant the spine just be fitted internaly, externaly it gives away F-16s looks ?
Sabre what Highsea meant was that on the E variant AKA C of the Block 50 the spine is not required. since you don't need the extra space. you have enough sapce in the ventrical fin , the spine is used for additional avionics eqt for the two seater to accommodate the secondary ECS. The spine can also have extra Chaf and flares. the Spine obviously has drag penalties so its usually only for two seater since more space is required to acomodate the Extra stuff.
Sabre what Highsea meant was that on the E variant AKA C of the Block 50 the spine is not required. since you don't need the extra space. you have enough sapce in the ventrical fin , the spine is used for additional avionics eqt for the two seater to accommodate the secondary ECS. The spine can also have extra Chaf and flares. the Spine obviously has drag penalties so its usually only for two seater since more space is required to acomodate the Extra stuff.
Oh yeah I read the part on E & C (Single seaters not requiring Spine) I forgot, it got of my mind.
Anyways isnt there any way of putting the spine inside F-16D/F. Out side besides giving away the look it will also allows enemy AC to take out the spine (that it if he wants to) other wise AC in WVR one is doomed to go down. Shooting off the spine will make it easier for him.
________________ "It is better to accept an end with a horror then face horror with no end." - Karl Von Clausewitz
May 29, 2005: Pakistan has submitted its request to buy 75 new and upgraded F-16C/D Falcon fighter aircraft after the Bush administration announced it would resume sales, said US Defence Security Cooperation Agency head Air Force Lt-General Jeffrey Kohler on Wednesday. Kohler told reporters in Washington that Pakistan had also asked about buying 11 used F-16s.
Earlier press reports said Pakistan was seeking to buy only 24 then 55 F-16s. But the numbers cited by Kohler suggest that Pakistan wants to make the F-16 a mainstay of its combat aircraft fleet. As part of the Pakistan Air Force’s fleet modernization program, Pakistan is also buying the JF-17 Thunder light fighter aircraft jointly developed by China and Pakistan. Pakistan has ordered 150 JF-17s. The JF-17 is a Mach 1.6-Mach 2 aircraft, with advanced avionics and excellent handling capability. Although it is not in the same league as fourth- and fifth-generation western fighters like the F-16 Block 50/52 or the French Mirage 2000-5, it is more than a match for India’s indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) that is expected to be the mainstay of the Indian Air Force in the future. At $ 15 million per copy, the JF-17 is also much cheaper than the F-16. The F-16C/D Block 50/52 sells for $ 40 million to $ 45 million each, depending on avionics and other options. So 75 of these F-16s would cost Pakistan between $ 3 billion to $ 3.375 billion.
As against this, 150 JF-17s will cost Pakistan $ 2.25 billion, in nominal terms. But the net cost to Pakistan will be considerably less. Under the terms of the income-sharing formula agreed between the Chinese manufacturer, Chengdu Aircraft Group of Companies, and the PAF’s Aircraft Factory at Kamra (which will supply manpower, aircraft components and other inputs), 50 per cent of the proceeds from all JF-17 sales will come to Pakistan as its share. Thus, the net cost to Pakistan of the JF-17s ordered by the PAF could be reduced by as much as $ 7.5 million per copy, bringing the cost of the aircraft down to $ 7.5 million — for a total net price tag of $ 1.125 billion for 150 J-17s.
Kohler said that Pakistan had requested prices for F-16c/D Block 50/52 aircraft, the most modern F-16s flown by the United States Air Force and the current production standard. He said similar aircraft have been exported to Poland, Greece, Chile, Oman and Israel. Only the United Arab Emirates flies a more advanced variant, Block 60, with improved radar, defence and range. The UAE acquired eighty Block 60 F-16s under a deal with the American manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, concluded in 2000, at a total contract price of $ 8 billion, or $ 100 million per plane. But this price tag included the cost of missile systems fitted to the aircraft.
The US was initially reluctant to supply the missile systems. But it agreed to do so after UAE officials said they were not interested in buying the F-16s if the deal did not include the missile systems. Kohler said he had held arms-sales talks with Pakistani Defence Ministry officials last month. He said, "I think when we go back and talk to them about the cost of the new systems my guess is that they will downsize slightly the request for new aircraft and may increase slightly the used."
A team of executives from Lockheed Martin’s F-16 assembly plant in Fort Worth, Texas, is due in Islamabad shortly to discuss the proposed sale. Meanwhile, the good news from Pakistan’s point of view is that the Chinese Air Force has now also decided to buy 200 JF-17s, in a deal that could be worth up to $ 3 billion. Under the income-sharing formula agreed between the two countries, Pakistan’s share of revenue from the sale to the Chinese Air Force could total as much as $ 1.5 billion, making the deal an important new source of foreign currency earnings for this country.
Moreover, the sale to the Chinese Air Force is expected to greatly boost the prospects for the JF-17 on the world market. Sales to other countries would substantially add to Pakistan’s foreign currency earnings in the years ahead, which would help to reduce its trade gap and improve its balance of payments. China and Pakistan tested the first prototype of the JF-17, also known FC-1 or the Super-7, on August 25, 2003. A publicly held test flight was made in Chengdu, capital of southwest China’s Sichuan province, on September 3, 2003, with Pakistan Air Force Chief of Staff Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat attending the ceremony. The Chinese news agency Xinhua reported that the maiden eight-minute flight of the plane, named Xiaolong (or Fierce Dragon), proved highly successful at Wenjiang Airport in Chengdu.
During the test flight, the plane demonstrated its outstanding mobility, and good interception and ground attack capability. With its advanced design and state-of-the-art manufacturing technology, the JF-17 has the combat capability of a third-generation fighter plane and is on par with the world’s most advanced light fighter aircraft. With its small size and relatively low cost, the plane is suitable for modern combat operations and ideal for sales to developing countries that cannot afford to pay the much higher prices of western jet fighters in the same category.
The JF-17 has some features like advanced avionics and cost effectiveness that give it an edge over India’s indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft. From Pakistan’s perspective, this makes the JF-17 an attractive option to replace its ageing fleet of Mirages, F-7s and A-5s. The JF-17 is a light weight, all-weather, multi-role aircraft with a speed of Mach 1.6-Mach 2 and a high thrust-to-weight ratio. It has the ability to engage targets at all speeds and altitudes within the conventional flying envelope. In surface attack and interdiction roles, the aircraft can strike at long distances. It can also carry high- and low-drag bombs, laser-guided bombs, runway-penetration bombs and cluster bombs. Its engine is of Russian origin, and is being made in China under license. China and Pakistan have invested more than $ 500 million in the development of the aircraft. The JF-17 project has been completed in a record time of four years.
Following the September 3, 2003 maiden test flight, the aircraft began undergoing a validation process, which is expected to take two-and-a-half years. Serial production is due to start in January 2006. The JF-17 has an advanced flight control system, which is a mix of conventional and fly-by-wire controls, making it highly agile and manoeuvrable. It is capable of carrying a variety of weapons systems including short-range missiles, beyond-visual-range missiles, anti-ship missiles and anti-radiation missiles. The JF-17 would meet the PAF’s bulk requirement, while induction of the fourth-generation F-16s offered to Pakistan by the United States in March 2005 would give the country’s air defence a cutting edge. In addition to the fourth-generation F-16 Block 50/52, other fourth-generation options being considered by the PAF include the French Mirage 2000-5, the Russian SU-30 and a Swedish aircraft.
China and Pakistan plan to also target markets in the Middle East, Africa and South America for sales of the plane. Any reduction in the $ 15 million per plane cost due to an increase in the production run would make it an even more attractive proposition for overseas buyers. The JF-17 fighter is also expected to be attractive for overseas buyers due to its advanced avionics and high maneuverability.China is Pakistan’s main defence supplier. The two countries have cooperated on a number of projects, including joint production of the K-8 jet trainer aircraft. The K-8 has been inducted into the Pakistan Air Force and has also been sold to several other countries. A $ 40 million deal for the sale of ten K-8s to Saudi Arabia was finalized in September 2003.
I dont know how can the JF-17 be superior to LCA, given the specs and host of other features like FBW, composites , radar , LCA is far superior to JF-17 given the fact that what all is available in open sources is true whereas JF-17 yet to finf a radar , has engine embatgoes 4 Pakistani versions and nobody is pretty clear on the avionics suite, so keeping patriotism behind us purely on specs LCA is a better aircraft!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this has been discussed before in the JF-17 Vs LCA. so see if you can dig it out from somewhere and see what people have had to say about it. Please don't start this into a JF-17 Vs LCA.
Acquisition of jets won’t bridge imbalance with India, admits air chief
By Shakil Shaikh
ISLAMABAD: The US would complete the process of approving Pakistan’s request for 75 multifaceted F-16 Fighting Falcons by September or October, hoped Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat here Monday.
"It’s not a done deal either way....we want 75 advanced version Falcons of which 50 to 55 must be Cs and Ds class and others may be used but upgraded ones," he said.,
He was giving an interview to The News/Jang panel comprising Fahd Hussain (Editor, The News, Rawalpindi), Shakil Shaikh (Chief Reporter, The News, Rawalpindi), Hanif Khalid (Chief Reporter Daily Jang) and Rana Ghulam Qader (Staff Report Daily Jang) at his Air Headquarters office.
He said, "Pakistan has already rejected the offer of 25 F-16 jets by the Americans." Saadat said even with the arrival of Falcons, disparity gap of the fighter jets between India and Pakistan would not be bridged. "But we should have an air force with deterrence value, as a few dozen Falcons would not be acceptable to us."
The General Dynamics F-I 6A and two-seat F-I 6B were succeeded in 1983 by the F-I 6C and two-seat F-I 6D, with new radar, totally upgraded avionics, a new cockpit and many extra items including two Lantirn pods filled with infrared, laser and other types of sensor which assist in night attack. Pakistan, the air force chief said, would like to have as many F-16 Falcons as it is possible given the ground realities. "We want a number of multi-role Cs and Ds F-16 Falcons which restore our original capability."
One F-16 would cost Pakistan around $40 million and probably the money would be paid from the aid package, as 75 F-16s would cost Pakistan a huge amount ($3 billion).
"We are not in an arms race with India, as Pakistan wants to give peace a chance which should not come through weakness but a position of strength," said Saadat.
Clad in his uniform, the Air Force Chief said Pakistan has not given up its other options like Grippen jets, though "the option of Mirage-2000-5 is almost given up as the French people are now aggressively marketing their Rafale aircraft."
Justifying Pakistan’s quest to acquire 75 Fighting Falcons from the Americans, Saadat said: "Our effort is to have deterrence value and if an enemy aircraft intends to violate our air space, the incoming flying machine must be shot down or we must have the capability to give a matching response."
He believed that Pakistan Air Force should be good enough to give a fight that hurts the enemy.
"Effective fleet of aircraft with good weapons and avionics can make the difference in modern warfare where one is not required to send land forces like in the past to occupy enemy land...now it is the war to see how much damage can be caused to the enemy."
Saadat said the key purpose of an air force is to cease, move and destroy enemy things and realising this the government at the highest level has allocated sufficient funds to it with maximum allocation made out of three services.
"With changing concept of warfare, the PAF is very much equipped with giving the enemy a good fight and it depends on a combination of factors," he maintained.
Saadat said it is not an easy thing or immediate possibility to produce high-quality equipment through indigenisation, as this process of indigenisation is very, very slow and it requires huge investment, and an organised structure.
"It would be our wishful thinking to start producing high-quality military hardware and weapons."
He said the government has already approved a 10-15 years integrated plan for the country’s forces and PAF was given the best deal for which we should be proud of.
He said JF-17 Thunder, a Pak-China joint venture, induction would prove best for the force, as there is no prize for a runner up in the war.
"We can go further in avionics and other things once the production of JF-17 starts...it’s an extremely good and important project," said Air Chief Marshal Saadat, who succeeded as chief of air staff on March 18, 2003 following the demise of Mushaf Ali Mir in an air crash.
"JF-17 will be better than all the existing aircraft - Mirages, A-5 and F-7. These are in no way close to it," he said adding, "it will replace all these aircraft."
JF-17 Thunder will be a mid-tech aircraft and within a couple of years it will be produced as test flights have already run.
He said Pakistan was offered to buy Hawkeye E-2C but it is unlikely that the PAF would opt for it, though a long list of weapons were handed over to the Americans and it would take some time to go through a process before the final decision is taken by the US administration.
He said no breakthrough is achieved with Russia in arms purchase and it could only happen once India parts its ways with Moscow and look the other way.
He said no deal is being negotiated with Britain and that could only happen if they offer integrated system. "That is why, I am not going to Paris Air Show, nor did I visit London because the British make the excuse of American sanctions in that realm," said Saadat.
He said the US sanctions are still there in view of the intellectual property rights and sensitive technologies. "The PAF has got no benefit out of non-Nato status given to Pakistan," he said.
Responding to a question, he said he is not regularly flying. He said it is a sensational outing, and one is on his own after taking off.
this does answer some of the questions that have been up and running in here, and also very interesting that the mirage 2000-5 is almost out of the picture. I'm also surprised that there is no mention of the Erieye.
Last edited by A Khan; June 1st, 2005 at 07:26 AM.
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