PAF to get ERIEYE/AEW/AWACS from Sweden

fieldmarshal

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[Note from Admin: The subject of the thread was changed due to recent news that PAF will NOT be getting any GRIPENS but Swedish government has shown interest in selling ERIEYE/AEW platforms to Pakistan Airforce. Please continue discussion in accordance with the subject of the thread. 7/18]

PAF trying to induct 60 Gripen jets into fleet
By Mayed Ali
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/

LAHORE: Through a deal thought to cost around Rs 156.6 billion, the Pakistan Airforce (PAF) is trying to induct 60 state-of-the-art jetfighters, Gripen (JAS-39), with the manufacturers, Gripen International - the conglomeration of Saab AB and BAE Systems.

These air-superiority combat aircrafts, come at a price-tag of $45 million (Rs 2.61 billion), and are considered the best overall bet in that category. The final delivery of planes to PAF, is expected within three years. The PAF and Saab Scania have already negotiated the deal. However, a final agreement between the Pakistan government and Gripen International is expected to be signed in a month or so, as the Saab AB awaits a green signal from the Swedish Government. President Pervez Musharraf’s visit to Sweden has assumed even greater significance against this backdrop. It is believed that the fate of the agreement will be decided if President Musharraf succeeds in convincing the Swedish and British governments to give a go-ahead nod to Gripen International. Pakistan also intends to purchase Airborne Early Warning planes, Argus, from Saab Scania as well.

The deal, should it materialise, will give the PAF an instant cushion of one squadron of Gripen within six months, and additional aircrafts at regular intervals. These aircrafts will on lease to Pakistan as a part of the aggressive marketing and innovative financing campaign of the Gripen International, until the deal’s completion. The squadrons will include twin-seat trainer aircrafts as well. The entire package will include the transfer of technology, besides sharing of latest research and consequential upgrades.

It is learnt the Gripen International has assured the PAF the delivery of aircrafts, the transfer of technology and upgrade programmes would not be hindered by any kind of sanctions except for the UN. The deal can, however, be dampened in case the US tries to influence both the governments not to allow the Gripen International to sell the fighters to Pakistan.

The Gripen is a frontline multirole, swingrole aircraft, and is considered a match for any sophisticated fourth-generation combat aircraft. Having a Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) system powered by Volvo RM12 engine, Gripen can attain a maximum speed of Mach 2. The aircraft has a digital fly-by-wire flight control system, which further enhances its manoeuvrability - an optimum agility at all speeds and altitudes. It has an established performance of flying supersonic at all altitude. Gripen can get airborne within a short span of one minute (scramble to take-off time). It can reach 50,000 feet (Maximum service ceiling) from standstill in just three minutes. The Hand on Throttle and Stick (HOTAS) control further ensures the best performance of the aircraft at stress times.

With a sophisticated computerised modern functional and weapon control system, Gripen is equipped with air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea operational capability. The platform is also capable of carrying out reconnaissance missions during peace and wartimes. The latest, hitech avionics enables the Gripen pilot to have a `look down-shoot down’ prowess. It is fitted with an Ericsson Radar, which can detect and lock-on multiple long-range targets. The aircraft can cage and shoot multiple targets at beyond visual range (BVR). The fighter can take on the hostile platform over 130 kilometres away.

In addition to this, the integrated datalink capability eases the burden on the pilot as information on all land, air and sea targets is available to all airborne, ground and sea platforms. That is, if a Gripen is flying over Kahuta and another is patrolling the shores of the country, both the platforms will share the data on targets through coloured multifunction displays (MFDs) in the cockpit.

This data will be shared by all ground and sea surveillance points as well. This is a state-of-the-art system, and matches the US equivalent JTIDS (Joint Tactical Information Display System). This system is generally called the Quick Reaction Alerts (QRA), and gives the fighter an edge in Combat Air Strike (CAS) and Combat Air Patrol (CAP) operations, besides reconnaissance.

Through this system, any aggressor in the air, land or sea can be engaged from the nearest facility on the ground, sea or in the air. This capability gets a prime support from Swedish Airborne Early Warning (AEW) platforms, S-100B Argus (SAAB 340B AEW). Pakistan is also looking for the purchase of some of these aircrafts for fully utilising the defence capability of Gripen. With this edge, Gripen’s low visual radar and infra-red signature makes it a safe platform in the air, having an edge over the enemy.

[Note from Admin: The subject of the thread was changed due to recent news that PAF will NOT be getting any GRIPENS but Swedish government has shown interest in selling ERIEYE/AEW platforms to Pakistan Airforce.]
 

fieldmarshal

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Re: PAF to induct 60 Gripen jets + awacs into fleet

now thats cool n big boost for PAF.
Plus all of u out there who were arguin with me that it take 10-15 years for the induction of a new weapons platform. now PAf is not noly gettin a new weapons platform but all tot n this all will be done in 3 years. wt u say now epecially mysterious n aussie
 
A

Aussie Digger

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Re: PAF to induct 60 Gripen jets + awacs into fleet

I never said 10-15 years, fieldmarshall, go and have a look at my previous posts, I said 2008-2010. Plus this article doesn't say PAF IS acquiring Gripen and WILL have it in-service within 3 years, it says it's TRYING to. There's a pretty big difference there. PAF has TRIED to get "new" F-16's for the past 14 odd years too and THAT still hasn't happened. The ONLY way PAF will induct Gripen into service within 3 years, is if Sweden supplies already constructed Gripen's, as it is doing with the Czech Republic. These however will be of the lesser A model rather than the advanced C model, which Pakistan no doubt is trying to acquire. I'll believe this story when I see it in a reputable defence news service like Janes, defence-aerospace.com etc...
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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Verified Defense Pro
Induction

I'd have to agree, UNLESS Hungary, Austria, South Africa agree to let the PAF to buy aircraft ahead of their requirements (ie take them from the pre-existing committment queue), then it aint going to happen in a hurry.

In light of the monies just spent on 50 ex libyan mirages, 150 crated engines etc... one would have to question what they will be able to come back from sweden with.

FM you really need to read the posts and comprehend what was said. People are telling you things out of experience, some of us have actaully been involved with procurement processes for weapons systems. At the end of the day, the processes remain similar for every military. Nobody gets their toys early unless someone else in the queue steps away, or the principle user decides to reflag platforms. That also seems highly unlikely.

One of the Gripen existing buyers has already been told that their aircraft will not be ready for 3-4 years due to existing demands - that means that the PAF is behind this buyer as well - UNLESS someone steps aside.

I can't see the NATO members giving up their list early as they need the aircraft to be delivered within a specific time frame for compliance reasons.
 

Oqaab

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Re: PAF to induct 60 Gripen jets + awacs into fleet

In addition to this, the integrated datalink capability eases the burden on the pilot as information on all land, air and sea targets is available to all airborne, ground and sea platforms. That is, if a Gripen is flying over Kahuta and another is patrolling the shores of the country, both the platforms will share the data on targets through coloured multifunction displays (MFDs) in the cockpit.
This is the best part of the report. But this report also says,

However, a final agreement between the Pakistan government and Gripen International is expected to be signed in a month or so, as the Saab AB awaits a green signal from the Swedish Government.
And Swedish Government might discuss the sale of Gripens with US and Britain(since BAe also shared its technology).
 

fieldmarshal

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Re: PAF to induct 60 Gripen jets + awacs into fleet

n arguin right now, well talk bout it when it happens, till than i sujest that u ppl go n read wt u wrote nad than wt i wrote, than u get back to me.
n gfoo12 em mirages ur talkin off r 3/5 not 2000-5/9 or may be ur under the impression that may be desault has finally decided to make the super mirage 4000 for the PAF.
 

gf0012-aust

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Re: PAF to induct 60 Gripen jets + awacs into fleet

fieldmarshal said:
n arguin right now, well talk bout it when it happens, till than i sujest that u ppl go n read wt u wrote nad than wt i wrote, than u get back to me.
n gfoo12 em mirages ur talkin off r 3/5 not 2000-5/9 or may be ur under the impression that may be desault has finally decided to make the super mirage 4000 for the PAF.
Unsure as to what you're saying here, but my ref is to Libyan Mirages, I didn't break them down into models.
 

P.A.F

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Re: PAF to induct 60 Gripen jets + awacs into fleet

:D: . anyway if this is TRUE then i'm happy man. it will be a huge boost for the PAF.
 

gf0012-aust

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Re: PAF to induct 60 Gripen jets + awacs into fleet

P.A.F said:
:D: . anyway if this is TRUE then i'm happy man. it will be a huge boost for the PAF.
Getting Grips would substantially change PAFs capacity and capability. If Eyrie is bought as well, then that makes a formidable defensive capability.

As I've said in another area, if the Grips are in the selection mix, then I am guessing that the Libyan aircraft are stop gaps while the Grips get inducted.

Once induction happens, then I'd guess that the earlier ROSE machines would be retired and backfilled by these 50 Libyan platforms.

On that basis, the purchase of 50 frames makes sense.
 

P.A.F

New Member
Re: PAF to induct 60 Gripen jets + awacs into fleet

just imagine

gripen 60
f-16 30
f-7 150
mirage 100

and u know the rest. :smokingc:
 

Oqaab

New Member
Re: PAF to induct 60 Gripen jets + awacs into fleet

I dont know why, but the article seems to be preety unreliable. I think we should wait for some more sources to comment on it.

Secondly, the AWACS issue has given lowest priority. The number of AWACS under discussion arent mentioned. The deal of Rs 156.6 billion is only for the 60 fighters, not for AWACS.
 

umair

Peace Enforcer
Grippen has suddenly become the top contender :eek
I need to get in touch with my sources ASAP!
BTW a squadron within 6 months would mean that we would be as Gary said likely to get them from the existing order list.My bet, if this deal(God willing) goes through, is that these would most likely be Swedish machines.
BTW $45 mill per plane would most likely make them the C/D version.Am I right in assuming so?
 

corsair7772

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Its all bungled up i tell you. Unless SAAB keeps its promises of enacting sanctions only on un approval, were in for a rough ride. But they gripen would make an excellent companion for the J-10 which is to be inducted as well.
 

adsH

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Re: PAF to induct 60 Gripen jets + awacs into fleet

gf0012-aust said:
P.A.F said:
:D: . anyway if this is TRUE then i'm happy man. it will be a huge boost for the PAF.
Getting Grips would substantially change PAFs capacity and capability. If Eyrie is bought as well, then that makes a formidable defensive capability.

As I've said in another area, if the Grips are in the selection mix, then I am guessing that the Libyan aircraft are stop gaps while the Grips get inducted.

Once induction happens, then I'd guess that the earlier ROSE machines would be retired and backfilled by these 50 Libyan platforms.

On that basis, the purchase of 50 frames makes sense.
GF the mirages are gap fillers alright but they are gap filler for the JF-17. JF-17 would have a similar Avionic pakage to the MIrages, some of the Libyan Mirages are going to be used for spare parts, and some would be upgraded to ROSE 3 Configuration.
 

adsH

New Member
Re: PAF to induct 60 Gripen jets + awacs into fleet

GF could you further explain this, ie in detail etc.....

this was taken form another forum
---------------------------------------
There is a good article in AFM of march 2000 edition. One of the key features that has been explained in details is its data-link system and information-superiority concept.

What it actually is, it transfers data from its radar, and fire control systems to other aircraft in the air such as other grippens in the air and also to the ground stations.

Another interesting feature is if a reconn grippen goes in and takes pictures and acquires target and relays this info to other grippens so the attacking grippens can go in with their radars switched off. this gives them a surprise element.

The only two other aircraft that have this feature are the super hornet and Typhoon. Sewdes have been doing since 80s.
__________________________________


this is again from another forum


Future Swedish air force versions and upgrades
The JAS 39A/Bs were planned to be upgraded as follows, but as the new, smaller, organization does not need all ordered Gripens, the older ones will not be upgraded.

larger, 150 x 200 mm colour MFDs
enhanced warning and countermeasure systems
reduced radar signature
an imaging IR sensor, IR-OTIS, in a ball in front of the canopy which can be used to search for, track and imagine airborne targets as well as searching for and identifying ground targets, this in conjunction with the helmet mounted sight, it also will function as a FLIR navigation sensor
further developed PS-05/A radar
upgraded computers and databus
new data cartridge
a new IR AAM missile, IRIS-T
helmet mounted display, Guardian by Pilkington/Cumulus (Denel)
enhancements to the RM 12 engine consisting of a new turbine, improved flameholder and new FADEC by Lockheed Martin, General Electric and Volvo Aero Corporation
new navigation and landing system
The JAS 39C/Ds will in addition to this

get further signature management measures
get two new, dedicated Amraam missile stations under the fuselage, closely spaced, staggered, in place of the centreline external tank
get the rear seat position upgraded for mission commander and weapon system operator functions and not just be a pilot station
get stronger landing gear permitting increased take off weight
permit increased G limits with heavy loads
be prepared for, but not all fitted with, aerial refuelling equipment
The last 20 batch 2 aircraft will get the Ericsson Saab Avionics EP-17 Mk3 colour displays, EP-17 Mk4 with a digital mass memory (replacing analog video recorder) and other improvements which will be fitted to batch 3 and export Gripens.

As internationalisation measures, Swedish Gripens (at least some) will

be adapted to foreign ground support equipment
get international ILS and IFF (NATO Mode 4)
be prepared for international map data bases
have onboard oxygen generating equipment
be able to present speed in knot and altitude in feet (as opposed to km/h and m as is standard in the Swedish air force)
Possible future upgrades and technology demonstrator
Initial funding for a phased array radar has been approved.


Future Development(i can be developed into a 4.75 gen fighter easily if not a full 5 gen.

FMV, the Swedish Defence Materials administration and the formal customer on behalf of the air force, will fund the conversion of one of the prototypes into a flying technology demonstrator. It will be ready in 2000-2002 and be used to study new weapons, avionics and propulsion.

Regarding propulsion, a more powerful engine (F414 or EJ200) may be fitted and it will fly with thrust vectoring, which would allow for a future tailless version.

As for radar, Ericsson Microwave Systems is planning on flying demonstrator of its AESA radar, on its own or with partners. It's planned to scan +-60 deg electronically and 60 deg mechanically in azimut, permitting scanning over a 240 deg arc and electronically +-60 deg up and downwards.

The Swedish air force is planning on having precision guided munition capability such as laser guided bombs operational on Gripen by 2003. This is a result of studies regarding what capabilities are required for international peace keeping missions.
 

gf0012-aust

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Re: PAF to induct 60 Gripen jets + awacs into fleet

The problem with the above article is that it relates to swedish aicraft.

Lets assume that the Grips are possible.

If that is the case, then any process that includes some of the above mods will delay PAF aircraft even further. They are not trivial upgrades, some will need to be done at build time, and cannot be retro fitted.

That takes the delivery schedule to a further window, as the only way for PAF aircraft to come fitted with those capabilities is to jump the queue and to take 3-4 other nations aircraft (assuming that they agree to it)

Taking another countries build releases will probably result in compensation for those countries - and that means the base price will rise.

People need to curb their enthusiasm and exercise some caution here. The amount of effort to induct a new aircraft type which is effectively a cross between gen4 and gen4.5 is enormous. The swedes also have to consider whether the networking capability is at risk of chinese intervention. They will not want networking software and concepts being made available to your allies. As of yesterday the EU had started to indicated that it would not be lifting technology bans on China, and although it does not directly effect the Swedes, it does effect how the Eu will trade with Sweden. - remember Sweden has to live with Europe, is part of Europe, and will not want to mess up it's house for the sake of Kroner.

If the Grips are coming, then I'd suggest that they will be base level models. Pakistan unfortunately didn't help itself at all when it funneled the F-16 to China - and as much as the reasons can be argued as to why it was done - commercial risk (esp with military technology) takes a greater priority.

There are a lot of variables in play here. It's just not a manner of having the money and walking up and saying "i want that one - and deliver it by next week" This is a very complicated purchasing process and if you want to get the better platform, I'd suggest that the Swedes will have definite restrictions on what you let your principle ally look at - they will not expose their more sophisticated tech if they cannot get guarantees about its safety and integrity.

and before people become indignant and get all patriotic and emotional, just remember that some of what I'm talking about comes from experience at working in weapons procurement and technology negotiations - it's not "internet" experience talking. ;)
 

adsH

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Re: PAF to induct 60 Gripen jets + awacs into fleet

Yeah lol !! Internet Experience!! :lol

GF i just wanted to add couple of stuff here. First Off i think Saab is willing to sell the tech, there is no doubt about that, but i think the only hindrance is the Clearance for the Volvo Power-plant that has a basic American build. The Power-plant can be removed and EJ2000 can be installed, and that might be the case here, the Price per unit seems a little More expensive. And your forgetting the fact here you claim the base models may be offered to PAF!! i would eat my hat and kick my self on the back side the day that would ever to happen, French are willing to sell a perfectly high-tech AC Mirage 2005 mk2. Mirage 2005 mk2 are almost the same price per unit and they are available to PAF I see Mirages as a competitor, DONâ€T YOU!! GF. PAF isn't begging here they are paying hard cash something, i think around 47 million a piece, Somthing tells me oh wait it's my common sense!!! they wouldn't take throw aways!!.

Its not about Technology funnelling through to the Chinese, but its more about politics i would think. But i think the Swedes have learnt something, no matter how much you control your self there are always others who would exploit your share of the market, self restraint is sign of arrogance and ignorance and quiet frankly Stupidity.

I see your remarks about Tech funnelling through to Third parties as very well thought through and very well placed. But you fail to see one point and that is Pakistan is not just any third world, Low life, down grade, Poor, corrupt underdeveloped trash land. The people that live there have Brains and they happen to be resourceful people. They may not have the Tech advantage now, and they may not have an advantage tomorrow or even the day after tomorrow, but there will come a time, A day when all these Acquisitions would become unnecessary (self Sufficiency). Pakistan has its own indigenous Project, as i said they may not be comparable to the European versions but they will one day have the bite. so you see, the whole point of this pointless mouth babble here is that people treat Technology as the Crown of a kingdom and they disregard the fact that the Tech would change and would continue to change very quickly, the winner are the People who hold on in the game and survive making brilliant strives to reach there goal. People change, Leaders change and so does technology!!


And GF please do-not try and point out my patriotism for Pakistan or any-other nation. i would say, infact i have Said the same things about India's indigenous developments , members here have hopefully witnessed that!!, in-fact i would say the same about any-other nation that works hard to keep up!!!!
 

fieldmarshal

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Re: PAF to induct 60 Gripen jets + awacs into fleet

u tell him adsh. u need to go n see things ur self. which i daubt u will, instead of makin hypathatical statements. n leedin others on.

Admin: No, it's a matter of being logical. It was pointed out how the Gripen issue could evolve, and lots of people became nationalistic and over-excited. Now people are blaming the Pakistani Press (and some have even balmed the Swedes!) for getting their hopes up when it was quite clearly pointed out months ago. This isn't a game where people score points for being patriotic at the expense of being rational. If people had calmed down rather than not get so excited then some wouldn't have to backpeddle when things don't turn out as the press has "promoted".

Most of my comments about things are made from experience or direct involvement - there are very few in here who can say the same. If you notice the responses from people who have been operational, or who have been directly involved in these things they are very very cautious. Sometimes experience brings a degree of "wisdom". - It certainly does in these matters.

GF
 

srirangan

Banned Member
Quoting the first line of the article
LAHORE: Through a deal thought to cost around Rs 156.6 billion, the Pakistan Airforce (PAF) is trying to induct 60 state-of-the-art jetfighters
The title of this thread is misleading, it shd be edited.
 

fieldmarshal

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Re: PAF to induct 60 Gripen jets + awacs into fleet

gfoo12 if u read the piece that i ave posted relatin to the mirages, u will see that it says that most of these mirages wil be used for spares meanin they will be canabalised,so i dont know where u got this stop gap idea.
secondly the number of f-16s will be braught back to its orignal number with mlu upgrades.
 
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