This is a discussion on Official Chengdu J-20 Discussion Thread within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by the concerned
Airforces have to think long term these days within the next 10 yrs maybe even ...
Airforces have to think long term these days within the next 10 yrs maybe even 5yrs an upgraded su-27 is not going to be good enough to defend your airspace and the j-10 is being deployed more like the f-16 which is air to ground first air defence second
compared to who? Outside of US,Russia,UK,France, and a few others most air forces are flying antiques...
China is good where they stand. And their currently developing their J-20 as well
On the first picture and third picture, you can notice the outline of the side inlet bay. Not quite as long as the ventral ones but pretty close.
On the second picture, compare the width of the ventral bays to the side bays, they also seem quite similar.
On the third picture, it is clear that the length of the side bay is shortened to make some space for the main landing gear but the technician standing near the bay gives a good idea of the length of the bay, seems to me you could squeeze an AMRAMM in there.
I wonder if Chinese have tried to put something like their AMRAAM in all bays compared to the US F22 that puts the Sidewinder in the side pods and AMRAMMs in the ventral bay only. It's just a thought.
Interesting. I wasn't aware of this. Do you have more info?
EDIT: That would be really strange. The first Chinese Flanker deliveries started in 1992... so you're saying they're being scrapped after 19 years due to end of airframe life?
Yeah, it was really strange. For one, those airframes were rumoured to have used up their 4000 hour airframe life, which could have been extended way longer. The reasons floating around the forums were that it was better to buy new fighters than completely overhauling the airframes, new engines and new avionics without Russian support. If I were to take a guess, some of the older ones will be replaced by J-11B for now while the newer ones will be replaced by J-20 (not on a one on one basis). The latest order for AL-31 engines might be to keep the Su-27 and Su-30 fleet in shape till the replacement arrives.
Interesting. I wasn't aware of this. Do you have more info?
EDIT: That would be really strange. The first Chinese Flanker deliveries started in 1992... so you're saying they're being scrapped after 19 years due to end of airframe life?
They really abused those early airframes and I'm not sure if the maintenance was that great either, so I would not be surprised if a small number are getting scrapped. Of course, that does not mean Flankers are diminishing in importance to PLAAF.
Yeah, it was really strange. For one, those airframes were rumoured to have used up their 4000 hour airframe life, which could have been extended way longer. The reasons floating around the forums were that it was better to buy new fighters than completely overhauling the airframes, new engines and new avionics without Russian support. If I were to take a guess, some of the older ones will be replaced by J-11B for now while the newer ones will be replaced by J-20 (not on a one on one basis). The latest order for AL-31 engines might be to keep the Su-27 and Su-30 fleet in shape till the replacement arrives.
i'd probably tend to agree as ulitmately it comes down to having to zero the frame if a rebuild is wanted. and it may have been cheaper for the chinese to just write them off rather than zero them
________________ A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
Last edited by gf0012-aust; February 12th, 2012 at 02:00 AM.
Airforces have to think long term these days within the next 10 yrs maybe even 5yrs an upgraded su-27 is not going to be good enough to defend your airspace and the j-10 is being deployed more like the f-16 which is air to ground first air defence second
I beg to differ, the su-27 remains a most capable and adaptable airframe in its many variations, and quite frankly is one of the top 10 air superiority aircraft in the world, possibly top five if we leave out the potential fifth gens. Air power is happening today, what tommorow brings none of use know. The Pak-Fa is still an Su-27, and belies the overall soundness of its predecessor.
I did say in 10yrs maybe 5 if u think about it come 2015 india would have near on 270 su-30's plus rafales and upgraded mirage 2000's and about to introduce the pak-fa .If i was a su-27 pilot i wouldn't feel too confident. plus think of all the other countries in the area which would have aicraft capable of dealing with Su's by 2015 let alone 2020.and numbers the aircraft that is going to have to replace the Su is going to have to be in the region of 250-300 aircraft so developing ur own is better.I also think about the same time Pakistan would also be in the market for an F-16 replacement and under current political climates i can't see that being the jsf
Airforces have to think long term these days within the next 10 yrs maybe even 5yrs an upgraded su-27 is not going to be good enough to defend your airspace and the j-10 is being deployed more like the f-16 which is air to ground first air defence second
A somewhat strange observation..
So, as we see Russia and VVS re-armaments going forward.
Take the Su-35S, which is an upgraded Su-27, it is indeed in the VVS long term plan. I'll say they have planned ahead some 15-20 year.
Same goes for India and the soon to be 'Super MKI' or any other AF.
They plann ahead for more than just 5-10 years.
Also those Su-34 are pretty much an Su-27 inspired jet.
Are these too not in the long term planning?
Also, platforms like the Flanker have an exellent upgrade path, you can stuff any systems from any manufactor and tailor it to meet your requirements.
It is more about systems, and how deep the upgrade package are.
I stand corrected but none of the upgrades that u just mentioned would satisfy china and i don't know how much more capable the j-11b is but again even if they were looking to go down that route that would only make them equal to its neighbours which is not what u want to do if you are trying to become the dominant force in the region
We do not know at this point how eager Russia are in exporting say Mig-35 or Su-35S to China.
There exist no real sources that Russia are willing to export anything more advance then the Su-30MK2 vanila..
There are some uncomfirmed reports about China is not Interesting import Su-35S too, but i find them very unlikely as well.
You see no BARS radar going to China.
And only Legasy jet engines like AL-31FN, AL-31F.
We do not know at this point how eager Russia are in exporting say Mig-35 or Su-35S to China.
There exist no real sources that Russia are willing to export anything more advance then the Su-30MK2 vanila..
There are some uncomfirmed reports about China is not Interesting import Su-35S too, but i find them very unlikely as well.
You see no BARS radar going to China.
And only Legacy jet engines like AL-31FN, AL-31F.
I don't think China would want to buy the Mig-35 or the SU-35 for now because they don't really dish up money, and those 2 jets are pricey. everything in their air force is under 35 million I believe per Jet(I read rumors that J-10B will be around 35 million)
and there are even more rumors on the internet that the J-20 will be under 45 million...
so ya I doubt that China would buy them.
and besides that the most advanced jet Russia is exporting is the soon to be SU-30MKI SS I believe
The Pak-Fa is still an Su-27, and belies the overall soundness of its predecessor.
Or that the plans they had for a new gen aircraft came to naught because of the money needed to develop it, so it's lets mod a su-27 with India or loose some of their export market
Jack don't misunderestimate the T-50 lad, shes all that and a bag of chips, to be honest, shes the only one of the three fifth gens currently in production that is likely to give the Raptor a run for her money in the up close guns up. I know some of us love our electronic gizmos, but to be honest, you have to get in a position to take the shot, then you pray you have enough under the hood to mach out of there. I said she's a Flanker to give her a complement son, as in shes as cute as her big sister, and smarter and faster. The J-20 does look to be rolling in the development money, and is a very classy bird, not to slight her in any way, I still think shes a little bigger and heavier than she needs to be, on the other hand, shes starting to sound more like a denial of assets interceptor, target tankers and awacs and you shut down some of the competition. One thing seems apparent after the Chinese New Year, the Chengdu daily airshow has slowed down.
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Originally Posted by the concerned
I stand corrected but none of the upgrades that u just mentioned would satisfy china and i don't know how much more capable the j-11b is but again even if they were looking to go down that route that would only make them equal to its neighbours which is not what u want to do if you are trying to become the dominant force in the region
Actually China has attempted to purchase Su-35BM components, and there were even some pre-contract talks about the aircraft itself. So they were interested in it. Given that it's currently ahead of anything the Chinese airforce flies this is hardly surprising.
