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mirage2000 out of iaf race for mrca

This is a discussion on mirage2000 out of iaf race for mrca within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by ajaybhutani 1.can we carry brahmos on rafale ? (remember the EF2000 discussion.. at least we cant do ...


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Old February 17th, 2006   #91
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1.can we carry brahmos on rafale ? (remember the EF2000 discussion.. at least we cant do it for EF2000 as theres no single point in the plane capable of carrying 2.5 T.).
2. there will be still a lot more things that we need to integrate.. like R77,R72,R27,KS172,astra,all russian A2G missiles etc.. the s/w of weapons controller shud be a part of ToT.. we cant afford to go to french for all the things.. infact its not even good to give away secrets of weapons to french.
3. The price of rafale will depend on how much ToT they offer. but in a way.. the plane has nothing more to offer in terms of tech apart from stealth..(unlike EF for engine.. F18 for aesa, mig35 for possible AESA & TVC and joint production..)
rafale can carry nearly a 10 ton weapon load ,so if su30 can carry the brahmos then the rafale can definitely carry them ,though iam sure it will require some modifications,also the rafale can carry upto 3 storm shadow missiles as opposed to 2 of mirage2000,each storm shadow weighs about 1.5 tons
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Old February 17th, 2006   #92
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rafale can carry nearly a 10 ton weapon load ,so if su30 can carry the brahmos then the rafale can definitely carry them ,though iam sure it will require some modifications,also the rafale can carry upto 3 storm shadow missiles as opposed to 2 of mirage2000,each storm shadow weighs about 1.5 tons
can u give me the link for the 10 ton figure?? that seems to be a bit exaggerated to me
its not just about total weight u can carry but about wether u can 2.5T on a single pylon..and theres a lot of difference between a 1.5T and a 2.5T missile.
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Old February 17th, 2006   #93
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$140 million for a Rafale? Check out the price we may just start shipping F-22's to "trusted allies" (sorry, but India is not in that club yet)
----------------------------
Inside the Air Force

February 17, 2006

HEADLINE: PLAN TO EXPORT F-22A TO ALLIES GAINING MOMENTUM WITHIN AIR FORCE

Momentum is building within the Air Force to sell the service's prized F-22A Raptor -- which is loaded with super-secret systems -- to trusted U.S. allies, with Japan viewed as the most likely buyer, service and industry officials tell Inside the Air Force.

A Lockheed Martin official heavily involved in the Raptor program told ITAF Feb. 14 that a proposal to alter course and sell the Raptor to Japan is working its way through the Air Force. Lockheed is leading development and production work on the service's newest fighter.

"Right now, [the proposal] is at the three- or four-star level" within the Air Force, the Lockheed official said. "It's not at the highest levels yet . . . to the people who really count -- but it's getting there."

Several service officials, including a key four-star command chief, that have spoken with ITAF also have confirmed that the notion of selling a yet-undetermined number of Raptors to the Japan Air Self-Defense Force (JASDF) is indeed picking up steam among blue-suited military and civilian decision-makers.

Air Combat Command chief Gen. Ronald Keys told ITAF Feb. 2 after his remarks at a conference in Lake Buena Vista, FL, that service officials are debating the notion of putting the F-22A on the international market. Several service officials, who all requested anonymity, have since said the proposal is gaining strength and working its way through the Air Force's cumbersome bureaucracy.

The revived proposal comes as Lockheed has seen the Air Force dramatically scale back its F-22A program. The service initially intended to purchase 381 fighters, but has since scaled that figure back to just over 180. Overseas sales would help the defense giant swell its shrinking F-22A bottom line.

Several industry officials employed by companies partnering with Lockheed on the multibillion-dollar fighter program contacted by ITAF over the past two weeks also confirmed the notion is picking up steam within the air service.

"I'd say there is definitely a renewed interest to develop an international variant" of the F-22A, a Boeing official told ITAF Feb. 2 at the same Florida conference. Boeing is under contract to develop several Raptor components, including its wings, aft-fuselage and avionics systems, according to a company fact sheet. Boeing also is responsible for 70 percent of the F-22A's mission software as well as other components, the fact sheet states.

Defense officials and military analysts, including Loren Thompson of the Washington-based Lexington Institute, contacted this week all agreed Japan is atop what appears at first glance to be a short list of possible Raptor suitors.

Why would there be so few nations in line to buy what is touted by U.S. officials as the most capable fighter jet in history? Sources pointed to several reasons.

First, a list of the Pentagon's most trusted partners already are heavily invested in the Joint Strike Fighter program, having sunk millions into development work and are preparing to spend a large amount of their respective defense budgets on their own F-35 fleets. And second, China and an increasingly stubborn Russia are pegged by strategic military and political thinkers as the only two nations capable of mounting an air-to-air threat against the American military and its allies. Several analysts said that would mean having an extra squadron or two of the F-22As permanently "bedded down" in the region makes strategic sense for the Pentagon.

A Japanese defense official said Feb. 14 that the Asian nation is very interested in purchasing the F-22A as a replacement for its F-4 aircraft, and confirmed the JASDF has contacted both Raptor-maker Lockheed Martin and the Air Force about buying the fighter.

The Japan Air Self-Defense Force currently has four fighter jet models in its fleet -- F-15s, F-4 interceptors, F-2s and F-1s. The JASDF introduced the F-4s in 1973 and has indicated it will begin retiring them some time next decade.

At press time (Feb. 16), the Air Force had not responded to several requests for comment submitted by a reporter over the past two weeks.

The controversial proposal would need the approval of top officials at the Defense and State departments as well as on Capitol Hill. A collective decision to export the fighter would require a change of mind from the Pentagon, Foggy Bottom and Capitol Hill.

Each Washington entity has for years resisted exporting the Raptor -- even to the coziest of U.S. allies -- based on fears some of the F-22A's most-advanced systems could "migrate" to potential adversaries, especially China. The Asian giant is viewed by many Pentagon officials and military scholars as the most likely nation that could take on the U.S. military in a 20th century-style conventional war.

Air Force officials and military analysts said before the U.S. would agree to export the Raptor to Japan, officials there would have to agree to stipulations that F-22A technologies would not be resold to other nations.

"It's hard to envision the F-22A with its current capabilities being exported, even to our closest allies. Its capabilities would almost certainly have to be 'watered down' for export," according to Christopher Bolkcom, an analyst at the Congressional Research Service in Washington.

"Would such an aircraft be attractive to foreign countries? Probably. Would it be priced affordably? That is more difficult to predict," Bolkcom told ITAF Feb. 14. "Technology transfer will likely be a critical issue" that U.S. policy-makers would have to iron out, he added.

Officials could potentially use another high-profile fighter program as a guide, if they opt to move forward with a plan to put the F-22A on the market, the CRS analyst said. "If the JSF program is able to resolve its technology transfer issues, DOD may have a model -- or at least a precedent -- for the F-22A to follow," Bolkcom concluded.

Though the F-22A is one of the Pentagon's most-valued -- and most costly -- weapon programs, existing laws place the State Department in charge of approving any sales of U.S. defense systems to other nations, defense officials and analysts were quick to point out this week. To that end, Lockheed, according to the company official, is merely "waiting for the Air Force and State Department to tell us what to do."

Meanwhile, the Japanese defense official declined to disclose the list of requirements the JASDF would slap on its potential F-22A fleet. The Lockheed official, however, noted the kinds of missions the self-defense minded Japanese air force would assign its Raptors would differ from the tasks that have been prescribed for U.S. F-22A squadrons.

Because a potential Japanese Raptor force would be focused on patrolling its native skies -- as opposed to waging combat operations in far-away and hostile territories like the U.S. models -- the JASDF could well opt to leave many of the air-to-ground capability upgrades planned for future U.S. models off their fleet, the Lockheed official said.

But overall, the company official said, if U.S. officials clear the way, Lockheed expects to sell Japan a Raptor that is "not that different" from the war planes that will fly with U.S. Air Force markings. "I wouldn't expect a dramatic change" to the fighter's closely held futuristic systems, the Lockheed source said.

As the proposal makes its way through the Pentagon and around Washington, U.S. officials are likely to engage in talks about the implications of putting the intricacies of three of the fighter's most-advanced systems in the hands of another nation -- even a close U.S. strategic partner like Japan, defense observers say.

Thompson of the Lexington Institute said Feb. 14 that defense and State officials, and lawmakers in Congress, are likely to remain hesitant to export three key F-22A systems: its electronic architecture; "aspects of its low-observable" technologies; and its next-generation data links, such as the Tactical Targeting Networking Technology waveform system.

Additionally, another defense analyst who closely follows Air Force programs pinpointed the fighter's electronic attack, and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) systems. In recent months, Air Force officials have stepped up their efforts to publicly tout the war plane's ISR capabilities.

It was not immediately clear how Japan would tailor its Raptor requirements, or how much a JASDF-specific F-22A might cost.

The Air Force's "fly away cost" per Raptor is about $130 million, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. T. Michael Moseley told reporters following a Pentagon roundtable late last year. Asked how much the Japanese -- or any allied nation interested in buying the fighter -- likely would have to pay for each jet, the Lockheed official said the company "has shown the Japanese the same kind of [per-aircraft cost] numbers Moseley threw out."

The Japanese defense official told ITAF Feb. 15 that the JASDF plans to send an official to the United States later this year to discuss its fighter-replacement effort -- and the possibility of buying the F-22A -- with U.S. officials. "So, this year is the most important year for JASDF." -- John T. Bennett
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Old February 17th, 2006   #94
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with downgraded avionics?
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Old February 18th, 2006   #95
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Originally Posted by ajaybhutani
can u give me the link for the 10 ton figure?? that seems to be a bit exaggerated to me
its not just about total weight u can carry but about wether u can 2.5T on a single pylon..and theres a lot of difference between a 1.5T and a 2.5T missile.
check out www.airforce-technology.com and www.fas.org ,off course you can carry when su30mki can carry brahmos which weighs 2.5 tons then why cant the rafale carry it when it has a comparable weapons load,also the rafale can carry the french asura and asmp missiles (these missiles have a 400kms range and are in the same category as the brahmos),maybe they may have to modify the wings a bit to accept the brahmos,but iam quite sure that the rafale can carry brahmos.
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Old February 18th, 2006   #96
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Sea Dog, 140 million US for Rafale is including all thinkable cost.

F-22's actually cost including the development cost is probably 400 million. If you add the sensor and a whole set of AAMs, who knows what the cost is. Fly away cost is not equivalent to how much you are going to sell it for.
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Old February 18th, 2006   #97
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with downgraded avionics?
It beats the RAFALE, EF2000, or those Sukhoi toys, with "upgraded" avionics.
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Old February 19th, 2006   #98
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Originally Posted by aaaditya
check out www.airforce-technology.com and www.fas.org ,off course you can carry when su30mki can carry brahmos which weighs 2.5 tons then why cant the rafale carry it when it has a comparable weapons load,
also the rafale can carry the french asura and asmp missiles (these missiles have a 400kms range and are in the same category as the brahmos),maybe they may have to modify the wings a bit to accept the brahmos,but iam quite sure that the rafale can carry brahmos.
1. dont give me links to websites but links to the webpages.
2. the links you have given are contradictory to each other.
3. SU30MKI cannot carry brahmos on its wings.
4. do u realise u are trying to fit the 8.4 m long missile on a 10.3 m long plane. ( su30 is 14 m long).
5. even prithvi is 300 km range. then i guess we can even carry prithvi on rafale/su30.
6. about the missiles u have mentioned please care to give the links for the same. ?
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Old February 19th, 2006   #99
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Why are we forgetting about the Gripen. SAAb of late have been marketing their product heavily to the indian. take a look.
http://www.newkerala.com/news.php?ac...lnews&id=99032
From an outsiders view I'm surprised the gripen isn't the front runner, at least doesn't seem to be with the mirage 2000 out of the picture.

Compared to its competition its cheap, easy to maintain and the best of its class. It does have limitations but really do these matter - all depends on the direction where the IAF is going. The LCA is a good step but is taking too long and even when its finished I doubt anyone will be able to argue its better than the gripen is today. Perhaps a better idea would be to take gripen c/ds as phase one, get a nice licensing agreement with saab/volvo/GE and build a lca/gripen hybrid. A carrier capable gripen with Ge414?, nice

As long as there is no problems with parts or supplies from external sources which i'm sure saab would be happy to supply then I don't see a problem. gripens and gripen hybrids aren't all of the solution to indias air defense but would be a major part of having a sustainable and reliable modern air force.
Having the cheaper gripen also would allow india to buy more of them, and even give them options if the lca doesn't work out. Quanity has a quality all of its own and the gripen fights well above its weight.

As for the rest, india is not going to get the f-22 ever and i doubt it can aford it anyway so nice big russian flankers or even hybrids similar to the current ones would likely be the way to go - it makes no sense to exclude the russians totally. In the end thou it doesn't really matter how each seperate airframe/system works - its how everything works together that matters.
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Old February 20th, 2006   #100
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Chris, I couldn't agree more, but the major problem I see with Gripen is it's unrefulled range limitations in regards Indian requirements.

Also, would India's air force want to diversify to yet another air munitions supplier - they already fly aircraft with French and Russian-made missiles, Gripen would either have to come ready to support these systems (adding to overall cost) or India would have to consider purchasing new US/European missile systems to support Gripen.
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Old February 20th, 2006   #101
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1. dont give me links to websites but links to the webpages.
2. the links you have given are contradictory to each other.
3. SU30MKI cannot carry brahmos on its wings.
4. do u realise u are trying to fit the 8.4 m long missile on a 10.3 m long plane. ( su30 is 14 m long).
5. even prithvi is 300 km range. then i guess we can even carry prithvi on rafale/su30.
6. about the missiles u have mentioned please care to give the links for the same. ?
no ajay dr.sivathanu pillai the director of brahmos has stated in an interview with the force magazine,that the su30mki's wings will have to be strenghtened slightly for it be able to carry the brahmos missile.
the brahmos length will definitely be reduced since it will have a smaller and less powerfull booster,because the high velocity of the launch platform will ensure that it will be able to mintain its speed and range with a less powerfull booster,however the iaf is still studying the proposal to modify the su30mki to be able to carry and fire brahmos from its wings.

however the iaf has expressed a desire to have the brahmos missile integrated to the fuselage pylon of the su30 on a priority basis(1 missile).

prithvi cannot be carried because it weighs a solid 5 tons per missile also it is a liquid fuelled missile ,whose diameter is 1 metre,to fuel a prithvi missile takes in excess of 20 minutes and a lot of special vehicles and equipment,the liquid fuel used in the prithvi missile is highly combustible and corosive ,hence prithvi has to be fuelled only before the launch of the missile.

you can check www.fas.org for info on the storm shadow/apache missile,go to the countries section ,choose a country and click the weapons,also you can get info on the rafale from both the websites(www.fas.org and airforce-technology.com),i got the info about the storm shadow loadout of the rafale from a flight magazine nearly 2 years old so you can check the archives of flight international,as for as the dr.sivathanu pillai's interview ,the website is www.forceindia.net ,however to read the full article you may have to take a subscription.alternately you can find the article in the br forum .
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Old February 20th, 2006   #102
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no ajay dr.sivathanu pillai the director of brahmos has stated in an interview with the force magazine,that the su30mki's wings will have to be strenghtened slightly for it be able to carry the brahmos missile.
as of now MKI cannot carry brahmos on its wings.
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prithvi cannot be carried because it weighs a solid 5 tons per missile also it is a liquid fuelled missile ,whose diameter is 1 metre,to fuel a prithvi missile takes in excess of 20 minutes and a lot of special vehicles and equipment,the liquid fuel used in the prithvi missile is highly combustible and corosive ,hence prithvi has to be fuelled only before the launch of the missile.
i know MKI cannot carry prithvi.. i used it as an example to state that even though range for prithvi is same as brahmos we still cannot carry it on mki. In a way to say that even though rafale can carry missiles of similar ranges than brahmos we still cannot claim that it will be able to carry brahmos. unless we look at length,width,weight of the missiles.
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you can check www.fas.org for info on the storm shadow/apache missile,go to the countries section ,choose a country and click the weapons,also you can get info on the rafale from both the websites(www.fas.org and airforce-technology.com),i got the info about the storm shadow loadout of the rafale from a flight magazine nearly 2 years old so you can check the archives of flight international,as for as the dr.sivathanu pillai's interview ,the website is www.forceindia.net ,however to read the full article you may have to take a subscription.alternately you can find the article in the br forum .
from your sources. weight of storm shadow is just 1300 kgs and over five metres long. clearly cannot be compared to brahmos specifications. even after weight and length reductions due to smaller booster. we still wont be near such length/weight as storm shadow.
furthermore the two links u gave for rafale specs have different values for payload(9400kgs and app 8000 kg for the second.). I havent seen figure of 9400 on any other website for rafale.
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Old February 21st, 2006   #103
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well guys france has just offered india a sweetener.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=356944


RAFALESFrench company offers upgraded fighter jetAK DHAR NEW DELHI, FEB 21 (PTI)
With the Indian Air Force close to floating international tenders for acquisition of 126 multi-role combat aircraft, French defence major Dassault Aviation has offered to sell its latest fighters Rafale.
The French offer was made by Chacks Edelstenne, CEO of Dassault Aviation, when he called on the Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh here yesterday. The Deputy Chief of the Air Staff Air Marshal AK Nangalia was also present.
Edelstenne told PTI his company informed the Minister of Dassault's decision not to field its upgraded Mirage 2000-5 for the Indian deal. The French Mirages were leading contenders for the Indian sale, as the IAF already has 40 Mirage-2000D aircraft in its inventory.
"We are on the verge of closing the Mirage fighter assembly line and want to offer India a quantum jump in technology in the shape of upgraded new multi-mission Rafales", he said.
"Though India has not not floated the Request for Proposals (RFP), we have conveyed to India to supply 40 Rafale multi-mission fighters in single source deal", the Dassault CEO, who is currently here as part of French President Jacques Chirac business entourage, said.

And in a major move, French aviation engine giant, Snecma, which is bidding for DRDO's joint collaboration project on the Kaveri engines, has offered to mount them in two Rafale fighters. Snecma is already collaborating with public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Limited on production of aero engines powering the Advanced Light Helicopters.
Dassult's surprise bid to pitch in its Rafale fighters for the IAF's multi-role combat aircraft project appears significant indicating that India could opt for two types of fighters in its moves to cover the shortfall in squadron strength.
Besides, Dassault, four other companies American Boeing and Lockheed-Martin, Swedish Grippen and Russian Mig-29S are competing for the Indian sale. IAF Chief S P Tyagi has said that once the RFP was floated,other bidders were also welcome to join in. Rafale, along with Boeings F-18 , both of which have some of the features of the fifth generation fighters are expected to be priced higher. During a closed door meeting with accompanying French Business delegation here yesterday, President Chirac is understood to have told them that Indian market was now highly competative and French companies would have to offer latest technology if they was to make deep inroads here.


well things are getting interesting arent they.
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Old February 21st, 2006   #104
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also it seems the mrca order is now being reworked to ,it will now be worth 190 fighters including some for navy:

JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - FEBRUARY 22, 2006
India expects to raise fighter requirement

RAHUL BEDI JDW Correspondent
New Delhi

* The possible expansion of India's multirole combat aircraft requirement is driven by interest from the navy

* The RfP is being "reworked" in light of the navy's requirement

India is expected to increase its initial requirement for 126 multirole combat aircraft (MRCA) for its air force to around 180-190 aircraft, with the additional number being considered for acquisition by the Indian Navy (IN).

This increase would significantly boost the cost of the proposed fighter purchase, which is expected to take four to five years to finalise, to around USD10 billion or more, Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources said.

Official sources indicated that naval plans to 'significantly' augment its strike capability and range to deal with out-of-area contingencies had delayed the MoD's dispatch of the request for proposals (RfP) for the aircraft for more than a year after the Indian Air Force (IAF) first publicly declared its intent to import 126 fighters.

RfPs are to be issued for the Mirage 2000-5 and Rafale from France, the F-16 and F/A-18 (US), the MiG-35 (Russia), JAS 39 Gripen (Sweden) and the Eurofighter Typhoon, senior IAF officials confirmed recently. The Rafale and Typhoon were not initially being considered, but have entered the race recently.

IAF Air Chief Marshal Shashindra Pal Tyagi declared in November 2005 that the RfP for the aircraft would be issued "within a month". However, official sources said the RfP was currently in the process of being "reworked" collectively in light of the navy's requirement and in all likelihood would be issued over the next few months.

The IN is poised for large-scale hardware acquisitions that include eight maritime reconnaissance aircraft, helicopters, submarines, frigates and two aircraft carriers by 2012 for an extended operational role in the Indian Ocean region.

MoD sources said the delay in dispatching the RfP was also due to the 'lack of clarity' in the government's revised defence procurement procedures (DPP) that mandate a 30 per cent offset in all arms contracts worth more than INR3 billion (USD 68 million).

"Elucidation on offsets has acquired immediacy as India is poised for a massive weapons buying spree that includes the MRCA," a senior MoD official said. It needs detailed discussion between the MoD and private industry that has not even started yet, he added.

According to a DPP statement, announced last year, the MoD's Services Capital Acquisition Plan categorisation committee would recommend which of the state-owned defence public sector units or ordnance factory board plants would assist the ministry in allocating the offset contracts for which they had neither the expertise, nor the experience or infrastructure to support.

The vague offset policy also does not stipulate whether the offset would relate to 'direct' or 'indirect' offset; or if discharging counter-trade obligations would also take into account transfer of technology, licensed or joint production of weapon platforms and systems.

There were also no provisions with the DPP to assign 'offset multipliers', or any guidelines on whether foreign direct investment in industrial sectors other than defence would be considered offsets.

Meanwhile, when French President Jacques Chirac visits New Delhi on 19 February accompanied by a military delegation led by Defence Minister Michele Alliot-Marie, he is expected to withdraw Dassault's Mirage 2000-5 fighters from the reckoning for the Indian contract, pushing instead for the new-generation Rafale fighter.

Official sources said Dassault had informally conveyed recently to the IAF its intent to close its Mirage 2000-5 production lines because of the time it would take for the MRCA contract to be decided, making way for the Rafale's full-rate production.

Dassault is also believed to have informed the IAF - which operates around 50 Mirage 2000Hs - that its extensive Mirage repair and servicing facilities set up by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited at Bangalore in the south, would require only 'limited modification' to accommodate the Rafale as this fighter has much in the common with the Mirage series.

In the late 1990s Dassault pulled its Alpha Jet trainer out of the race for the IAF's contract for 66 advanced jet trainers (AJTs) after it ceased producing the trainer while waiting for India to make a decision. BAE Systems' Hawk was eventually awarded the USD1.7 billion AJT deal in September 2003 after nearly two decades of negotiations.

Separately, IAF Vice Chief Air Marshal Ajit Bhavnani recently declared that the service would order 20 locally designed Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) by the end of March.

AM Bhavnani said deliveries of the Tejas would begin in 2008 and end three years later. Thereafter, the IAF would consider a follow-on order for a similar number estimated to cost around INR20 billion, officials said.
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