This is a discussion on Lockhead Martin to sell weapons to India... within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; I read in a article that lockhead wanted to sell India f-16 to replace their mig-21 and offered them a ...
I read in a article that lockhead wanted to sell India f-16 to replace their mig-21 and offered them a chance in the jsf project. Is this true. I also heard China no longer wants to fund the Pak-Fa project, will China be sold Pak-Fa? Futher more what do think India's future af will look like?
My oppinon on what the INAF will look like:
LCA=200+
MCA=100?
Pak-Fa=50+
Mig-29=50+
Su-30=200+
Mariage 2000=200+
BackFire=?
Yeah, Ive read those articles too in Jang newspaper. Lockheed Martin offered F-16s to India and also offered them to join the JSF project. But India may not join the JSF project coz it is currently working on 2 fifth generation fighters, MCA and PAK FA.
China is negotiating for ~40 (I dont remember correctly) Su-34 fighters. They have their J-12 project running and the aircraft will be inducted 2012. So I dont think China will ask for PAK FA when they have J-12.
Until posted (from a credible western source) I find it hard to believe the above.
Both India and Pakistan are back on the legitimate list for weapons sales due to the war on terror.
Although Lockheed may see an entry point due to the Orion P#C purchase, I cannot see them creating another spot for JSF. mainly because
:regional imbalance
:concerns about destablising pakistan
:creating an obvious disconnection point for China and Russia
Australia had a very difficult time with India when we sold Pakistan our Mirages. A JSF would tip the scales too much and that would not be seen as very smart.
Although India is a core Russian partner, there are some subtle moves happening to reduce dependance on Russian platforms due to high maintenance and support issues. Indias closeness to Russia (as in funding a lot of current Sukhoi and ALI development) would be seen as much too close for LM's, and the State Depts comfort.
India may be bidding for piece work in JSF construction, but the obligation for that work has to go to the existing members first. IIRC the english have a veto right on some issues, BAE would be very uncomfortable about Indias relationship with Sukhoi. (and BAE are the first foreign "prime")
I'd need to see some of my own sources delivering feeds on this before I accepted it as legitimate.
Until posted (from a credible western source) I find it hard to believe the above.
Both India and Pakistan are back on the legitimate list for weapons sales due to the war on terror.
Although Lockheed may see an entry point due to the Orion P#C purchase, I cannot see them creating another spot for JSF. mainly because
:regional imbalance
:concerns about destablising pakistan
:creating an obvious disconnection point for China and Russia
Australia had a very difficult time with India when we sold Pakistan our Mirages. A JSF would tip the scales too much and that would not be seen as very smart.
Although India is a core Russian partner, there are some subtle moves happening to reduce dependance on Russian platforms due to high maintenance and support issues. Indias closeness to Russia (as in funding a lot of current Sukhoi and ALI development) would be seen as much too close for LM's, and the State Depts comfort.
India may be bidding for piece work in JSF construction, but the obligation for that work has to go to the existing members first. IIRC the english have a veto right on some issues, BAE would be very uncomfortable about Indias relationship with Sukhoi. (and BAE are the first foreign "prime")
I'd need to see some of my own sources delivering feeds on this before I accepted it as legitimate.
Well i don;t forget to mention about Australia''s Anti India role ,
- They given Subs to Pak.
- They gives Planes .
- Ausitraila's Marinetime plane spys on INS DELHI during its south ASIA visit. this upset New delhi promted to recall defence attache and also asked australian one to leave india.
- Last straw was when india done Nuclear explosions, Ausitrali's Prime Minister Mr. John put huge cry , this promoted New delhi to cancel all contacts and also call of Navy excersise.
I don;t think India and Australia enjoy good relations at all.,
Well now recent US foreign policy is now based in INDIA , China , and Russia .
Infact this is true that US offered F16C , Herculis and JSF to india and here is the link ,,,,GF..
Judging by the number of exhibitions and representatives at the recent Aero India 2003 international airspace show in in Bangalore, India is the fair maiden whom everyone wants to romance. According to estimates, India imports US$1.5 billion worth of military hardware every year. Since 1960, the country has received $22.8 billion worth of weapons, and the sum may increase by $10 billion over the next seven years. And one of the most avid suitors is Russia.
Russia's display was twice as large as last year. Almost 60 Russian companies exhibited around 300 products. Russian efforts are understandable when one considers that aviation accounts for almost 75 percent of Russian arms exports. Most of it is sold to India, China, and Southeast Asia. As all major and potential customers attend the Air India 2003 expo, the exhibition is even more important than those in France or Great Britain.
As noted in the Russian business newspaper Vremya MN, this is probably the first time that the Russian military-industrial complex has displayed so many planes and helicopters abroad. The Sukhoi exhibit includes virtually the whole range of export models: SU-27SK, SU-30MK, SU-35, SU-33 naval aircraft, SU-49 combat training planes, and the SU-32 fighter-bomber. The MiG is showing a modified MiG-29M2 and MiG-AT combat training plane. The KAMOV and MIL enterprises are displaying a broad range: from the KA-31 to the KA-50 Black Shark to the MI-28N (night helicopter) and a whole series of modified MI-35s.
SU-30MKI planes from the Indian Air Force participated in the show. Even the Russian military does not have these fighters.
Russian and Indian experts discussed a project to establish a joint venture for building a new Russian-Indian transport plane based on the Il-214 multipurpose transport aircraft. The meeting was attended by representatives of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited aircraft-building corporation (HAL), Russia's Irkut research and production corporation, the Ilyushin aircraft building complex and the Rosoboronexport state arms trader.
And Indian Defense Minister George Fernandes announced that a contract to pass over the Admiral Gorshkov heavy aircraft carrier to India would be signed in the near future.
These sales and transfers follow significant cooperation between Russia and India. They already have established joint ventures in work on new weapons systems. The Reutov company and the Defense Research Directorate of India have set up the Bramos company. It has already designed a supersonic anti-ship missile with a range of 300 kilometers. The missile is a modification of the Onyx/Yakhont Russian missile, with its guidance system and computer designed by Indian specialists. The Russian and Indian navies will receive the first missiles of this type in 2004.
The Irkut company and HAL have signed a pre-contract agreement for the licensed production of some parts of SU-30MKIs in India. New Delhi is considering over 350 projects in the sphere of military-technical cooperation at present.
But while Russia may be among the most fervent arms seller to India, it is hardly the only one. Another is Israel, which also has significant ties with India. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited together with Israel Aircraft Industries Ltd showed HAL Advanced Light Helicopter (DHRUV) demonstrator, equipped with IAIs Integrated Avionics Package for helicopters.
IAI is delivering $300 million worth of unmanned aerial vehicles to India and advanced negotiations have been going on to supply Phalcon spy planes to New Delhi. Another Israeli firm, Tadiran Communications, which specializes in military communications, is also providing millions of dollars worth of equipment to New Delhi.
Israel Military Industries plans to collaborate with India's defense ministry and will open an office in New Delhi to boost arms sales estimated at $1 billion. While IMI did not provide details about possible deals with Indian defense companies, it estimated potential arms sales to India at $1 billion, Israel's leading business daily Globes has reported.
Other Israeli arms deals with India include Barak ship point missile defense system and Elta Electronics Industries' Green Pine missile detection radar. And artillery producer Soltam Systems announced it would supply tens of millions of dollars' worth of artillery to the Indian army.
But the newest, and potentially most significant suitor is the United States. In the aftermath of September 11, the US government has sought to minimize its past differences with India, a country banned from US weapons sales in 1998 after India conducted a nuclear-arms test, and to instead strengthen military ties between the two countries.
US Ambassador Robert Blackwill, speaking at the opening of the US pavilion at the air show, noted that since President George W Bush lifted sanctions in 2001, US military sales to India "jumped from near zero" to more than $190 million today.
In that regard the United States has eased its rules on the export of dual-use technology to India. The sale of such technology, or hi-tech products that could also have military applications, to India has been banned since the country became a nuclear power in 1998.
Indian Foreign Secretary Kanwal Sibal and US Commerce Undersecretary Kenneth Juster signed an accord to ease the export rules and set up an India-US High Technology Cooperation Group to boost bilateral trade.
The ambassador also claimed that the Indian government had already expressed interest in attack, reconnaissance and transport helicopters in addition to acquiring target drones for the navy. Accordingly, a high-level US naval delegation is visiting India this month to discuss the possible sale of US Navy P3 maritime patrol aircraft. He also said that the Bush administration had worked with the US Congress to amend the law suitably to facilitate the export to India of items on the US Munitions List. Since last October 24, only major defense equipment sales above $14 million require congressional notification, a change that puts India in a category with such US allies as South Korea and Japan.
And in a bid for India's market, Lockheed Martin Aeronautics offered a wide range of hardware, including F-16 fighter jets to replace India's aging fleet of Soviet-built MiG-21 warplanes. The offer, including technology transfers and joint ventures, came ahead of a visit to India by French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin, expected to discuss an $8 billion Mirage-2000 deal with India.
And Lockheed Martin also invited India to participate in the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) global project it leads. That program, worth $20 billion, has 100 overseas partners and plans to manufacture 2,000 aircraft, which can serve both the navy and air force, for Britain and the US before selling to others. Lockheed also said the company wants to sell or locally build its C-130 cargo planes.
Location: I'll tell u but then I'll have to shoot u
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Re: Lockhead Martin to sell weapons to India...
OK Su(-37)! Anti-Pakistan rhetoric was not good enough that now u have turned onto Australia!.What two countries do is between themselves.Consider this another warning!
Oh and India even if offered F-16s for it's mig 21s won't go for them.Reason any sane person would know that a wholesale changeover from Russian to Western tech would spell massive issues of whole support infrastructure change(prohibitvely expensive) massive retraining of not only pilots, but also of techs, maintanence personnel etc.Changes in doctrine, issues of buildin familiarity with new weapon systems etc.
All in all India woyld in case of replacement end up incurring ten times the cost of procuring the planes in form of expenses necessary to deal with the above issues.
Su-27. You need to learn about regional politics. Australia does not play favourites with India or Pakistan. If anything we try and diplomatically manage both relationhips as both are important to us. It is not in the regions interest for it to turn into a shooting war, where we can, we try and add a different perspective into the diplomatic mix to inject some caution.
I'm not sure what "bee is in your bonnet", but my comments are an observation on my part, and as much as you seem to have this conspiracy streak running through you, I don't think that there is anything machieavellian occurring.
When have we given subs to Pakistan? In older subs, Pakistan uses Agostas and Daphnes - which are french. We have never used french submarines. We certainly haven't sold them Collins class as the last time I counted they were all there.
What spy planes? Are you talking about ASW P3 Orions?
Why would we send a spy plane anyway to Indian shores when we just have to ring up the french and buy satellite pictures if we need them?
Sending an RAAF ASW aircraft to India seems an odd way to spy on a nation that we have regular backdoor meetings with. If any nation wanted to spy on India and/or Pakistan there are easier ways to do it. Certainly NOT with aircraft.
Having been to India a number of times in the last 6 months, I personally have never felt uncomfortable about the country to country relationship. In fact I've never been saluted so many times in my life. So I have no idea about what you are on about.
Finally, governments operate at a far more different level than what the press do, I think you'd be surprired at how much liaison is occurring between australia, india and pakistan. I can only assume that your comments clealry demonstrate that you have no involvement at a govt, commercial or military level - as there is substantial happening.
The fact that you became confused about subs and spy planes leads me to believe that you are confusing australia with France. after all, they have been evicted for commercial espionage from a number of countries, maybe thats what you are thinking of.
BTW Australian defence related and commercial industrial companies are not restricted in their capacity to trade with either of your countries.
If anyone has a right to be frustrated it should be Pakistan, we took so long in selling them our Mirages because of Indian sensitivity that its a wonder they still wanted them.
You should be happy, Tandulka has absolutely given australia a flogging in the cricket today.
Try not to make enemies when there are none in the first place, thats how things get out of hand.
How we spy on our friends
Brendan Nicholson
The Sunday Age
Sunday 8 April 2001
The Cold War drama played out between a Chinese jet fighter and a US spy plane off Hainan island has focused attention on a global intelligence jigsaw in which Australia plays a clandestine but pivotal part.
Australia's main role involves massive satellite surveillance of its Asian neighbors' civil and military communications that extends over a third of the planet. But it includes regular flights around Indonesia and as far afield as India and Pakistan by RAAF P-3 Orion patrol planes carrying equipment similar to that aboard the US plane at the centre of the row.
Many Americans were startled to discover their aircraft were carrying out potentially dangerous spying missions off the Chinese coast. But Australians would be equally surprised at the extent of their country's surveillance.
Since 1947, Australia has been part of a highly sensitive
intelligence-gathering alliance with the US, Britain, Canada and New Zealand approved by the Chifley government. It was top secret for 40 years until revealed by strategic analysts Des Ball and Jeffrey T. Richelson in their book The Ties That Bind.
The agreement divides the planet into spheres of intelligence- gathering responsibility, with Australia's Defence Signals Directorate covering the eastern Indian Ocean, parts of South- East Asia and the western Pacific. But technology has given it a much wider range.
Last year Indonesia claimed RAAF aircraft were carrying out "black" (secret) flights over its territory. Australia denied the claims, but Indonesia repeated them in an official protest and threatened to shoot down the aircraft.
The magazine Flight International said intelligence-gathering flights were carried out by two RAAF EP-3 Orion maritime- surveillance planes which were converted to operate as intelligence platforms under a classified project called Peacemate.
These aircraft were joined during the Timor crisis by an even more sophisticated US EP-3E Aeries II.
Indonesia issued a NOTAM (notice to airmen), warning pilots to watch out for RAAF Orions.
In another incident, Indonesia claimed that two of its fighters intercepted a RAAF Boeing 707 air tanker and four Australian F/A-18 fighters in its airspace.
An Indonesian fighter was alleged to have come to within eight metres of a Hornet. Flight International believed the Indonesian jets were armed and the Australian aircraft were not.
The Australian aircraft were enroute to Singapore and the Australian Defence Force said they were in international air space in a recognised air corridor.
Australia is also believed to use the reconnaissance version of the F-111 bomber, the RF-111C, to overfly Indonesia. The plane carries a long-range imaging pod able to record a mass of signals and sounds over a great distance.
The RAAF's aircraft regularly find themselves much further afield and are believed to have collected information about Indian and Pakistani missile and nuclear bomb tests.
In 1997, India formally protested to Australia that an RAAF Orion flew low over the pride of its fleet, the new destroyer INS Delhi, south of India's Andaman Islands.
The Orion photographed the ship and dropped sonar buoys near it. These would have collected enough information about noises emitted by the destroyer to paint a comprehensive picture of its power plant and propulsion system. This "signature" would be stored to enable Australia and its allies to later identify the ship by its noise alone.
The US aircraft involved in last week's incident is believed to have been trying to find or listen to either a new Chinese destroyer or one of two new Chinese submarines the Americans are worried about.
One is a variant of the Russian Kilo Class sub and the other a variant of the Victor III, designed to launch cruise missiles while submerged. That would make it ideal for attacking US aircraft carriers.
Professor Ball told The Sunday Age the RAAF Orions constantly patrolled a massive area of the Pacific between Australia and Butterworth in Malaysia. They would also head out across the South China Sea, around New Guinea and back over the Coral Sea.
Along the way they would intercept VHF and microwave signals from as far as 200 kilometres away.
"Our coverage is both what we're interested in, Indonesia basically, and broader coverage on behalf of the UK/USA community, which means from Burma across to the Coral Sea," Professor Ball said.
US liaison officers were stationed in the intercept facilities and processing facilities and at headquarters in Australia and the US.
"It's key stuff. You can't do anything unless you know what the electronic environment you're going to be operating in is.
"It's what tells you where things are located in terms of radar sites, communications antennae and communications beacons. It also tells you, by intercepting their communications, what they're planning to do. By monitoring radars on their aircraft you can tell when the aircraft move from strip to strip, so you can monitor their order of battle.
"You can target your own systems by keying them in to particular frequencies. If you want to hit an airport and you know the air- traffic control radar at that airport is on a certain frequency, then you can target your own things from 1000 kilometres away straight into that radar."
Extraordinarily sophisticated equipment aboard satellites, aircraft and warships and operating in land-based stations in Australia act as a series of massive electronic vacuum cleaners, sweeping up every kind of communication.
A mass of information from all sources flows to the Defence Signals Directorate headquarters, at Russell Hill, in Canberra. There, powerful computers sift the mundane - the conversations of the region's lovelorn teenagers, instructions to bring home some milk - from the potentially important.
The information might include details of military movements, plans to destabilise a government, hints at a terrorist operation, a people-smuggling racket or a drug transfer. It is passed on to specialist agencies for comprehensive analysis.
"It operates," says an expert, "not unlike a news agency distributing information to clients."
This vast net is bound to scoop up economic data and it is hard to imagine the system ignoring commercial information that might be used in trade negotiations.
Most of the information Australia collects comes from stations - at Kojarena, near Geraldton in WA, Shoal Bay in the Northern Territory and Waihopai in New Zealand - which intercept satellite signals.
There, the Defence Signals Directorate intercepts phone and other calls over a massive area extending from East Africa and Eastern Europe across all of Asia to the mid-Pacific and from the Antarctic up to Siberia.
Key targets are the Palapa satellites which provide the national telecommunications systems of Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei and Papua New Guinea.
More direct strategic surveillance will be provided by the Jindalee Operational Radar Network at Alice Springs from next year.
The over-horizon radar system will monitor aircraft and ship movements right over Indonesia and possibly further north into Asia.
A key role of Australia's six Collins Class submarines is to gather intelligence using their own electronic equipment and by observing bases and shipping movements from periscope depth. Two submarines operated off Timor before and during the landings there. In a crisis, they would also be relied on heavily by Australia's allies, as the relatively small and manoeuvrable conventional submarines can operate much more effectively in the region's shallow inshore waters than the massive nuclear vessels of the US Navy.
Another analyst said electronic surveillance by ground stations was the most discreet way to gather information.
"If they see an aircraft cruising along their border with aerials sticking out, there is not a lot they can do legally if it is international territory. But it is an affront to them.
"With the ground stations they never see anything. The satellite is far above and the ground station is in your own country. You hoover up masses of information and they never know it."
Regarding the infastructure overhual , it is not a given day task , US need India to counterweight China , this is open sercret. MOreover India is not using Russian hardware with westrean electrons. In time futher ahead you cant ignore the possiblility that US supplyed India F16'sa F15's free of cost, in order to enggage india , like US dose in Cold war era.
If US has asked India to participate , then it shows that US is now Readying to arm India with HI-TECH wepons systems. In future also US will opens its all TECH to India. Iviting to JSF , which is 5th generation Fighter is a very IMportant thing , this shows that US is now comfortable wiht india in giving hi-tech systems. Moreoevr Indo -US group also negotiating on technoligical exchange of US current AMM sys.
WARNNING I am onlly showing the mirror what happen , YOu can't say that stop calling Black a BLack and White a WHite , . Or stop saying AK 47 a AK 47 .. do ,.ya? ... this is not my extreame Ideas , this is fact ... and FActs can't be altered. WHy are are always RUN from reality? , I am just posting my Real openiion based of HARD CORE GROUND FACTS. If this Australian and INDIAN inccident Happens in 1997 , so what is my fault ?? My fault is that i only stated that ? I am not writing any imaginery things like anyone else write . I have FActs to prove this and u can't tell the relaity is extrime.
umair : u can't ignore the HIMALAYAS by not seeing it ,Don;t try to become that bird which closed his eyes when she sees her enemy and thinks that if i cannot seeing him then he will not also seeing me.
PLease wake up in real world where internation politlics plays every move.
Su-37, I have tried to respond to these as much as is possible. There are some things that I cannot and will not on a public forum. - my comments are bracketed)
(Brendan Nicholson of The Sunday Age is a journalist who is anti government and anti-military. he lacks a little credibility.
Since the first days of the installation of the Pine Gap station everyone with a military background has known that it is a ballistic missile warning station. Look at pictures of a BMEWS in Thule; it’s exactly the same as Pine Gap. Pine Gap is also part of NASA's monitoring process. When man landed on the moon in July 1969 Australia managed part of the communications handling from Parkes. Pine Gap is there to amongst other things let the US and Aust know if someone launches a ballistic missile. In some instances the Thule and Pine Gap stations have actually stopped escalations of conflict between the US and the old Sov Union as it confirmed failures to launch etc...)
The agreement set up by Chifley is a beat up. Of course it exists. We had/have military treaties in place where our obligation was to provide intelligence and support under ANZUS, 5 Powers Agreement and SEATO (Covering Aust, NZ, UK, USA, Malaysia, and Singapore) Likewise our relationship with India and Pakistan has groundings in the Commonwealth. That relationship enables in some instances Aust to talk to both countries where the US could not.
(An RF-111 was flown over East Timor during 1999, the air force tasking commander failed to get the proper authority and was reprimanded for it. its common knowledge in Aust)
The magazine Flight International said intelligence-gathering flights were carried out by two RAAF EP-3 Orion maritime- surveillance planes which were converted to operate as intelligence platforms under a classified project called Peacemate.
(They are also used to test new technologies for electronic warfare. how else do you test equipment?) In actual fact the Australian aircraft are considered to be as sophisticated as the US Aries.
These aircraft were joined during the Timor crisis by an even more sophisticated US EP-3E Aeries II. - (Yes, and their role was to monitor troop movements on the east Timor border, if you remember correctly, militia and some Indon military were quite happily murdering Timorese, even the UN civilians were attacked. -didn't you see the footage when this was happening)
Indonesia issued a NOTAM (notice to airmen), warning pilots to watch out for RAAF Orion’s. - (Yes and if Indonesia had sent naval vessels into the east Timor zone under the UN mandate we would have sunk their ships if they posed a threat)
In another incident, Indonesia claimed that two of its fighters intercepted a RAAF Boeing 707 air tanker and four Australian F/A-18 fighters in its airspace. An Indonesian fighter was alleged to have come to within eight metres of a Hornet. Flight International believed the Indonesian jets were armed and the Australian aircraft were not. The Australian aircraft were enroute to Singapore and the Australian Defense Force said they were in international air space in a recognised air corridor.
(True, Indonesia has its own definition of an EEZ which is also challenged under the UN) Under international conventions any aircraft can transit that corridor. - If we meant to visit harm on the Indon jets then we would travel armed for air to air intervention) Australia and Singapore have exchange programmes and co-operate on military training. Singapore has been given a tract of land to train from which is 4 times the size of Singapore. They have 2 squadrons of aircraft plus some other units based in Australia, they have other units based in France and the US) Its interesting as when the US aircraft fly that corridor they get left alone, for some reason Indonesia felt a need to intercept us - the Indon commander was reprimanded after the diplomatic game of football was started up)
Australia is also believed to use the reconnaissance version of the F-111 bomber, the RF-111C, to overfly Indonesia. The plane carries a long-range imaging pod able to record a mass of signals and sounds over a great distance.
(Its overflown once, and the R stands for reconnaissance, that’s its job - there are 4 of them and everyone has known we have had them since 1972)
The RAAF's aircraft regularly find themselves much further afield and are believed to have collected information about Indian and Pakistani missile and nuclear bomb tests.
(Yes, we fly as far as the UK, regularly fly to the US and conduct exercises with some European nations - that’s what training is for)
(India and Pakistan nuke monitoring - what a load of bollocks - if you want to get data about a nuke test you do a spectrum test (amongst other things) from satellites, you don't stick aircraft in harms way - and to get data would actually mean flying over the test zone - you can't side scan it with any of the Australian aircraft - look at the fuselages on them, not one phased array panel, not one side scanner in sight) and (yes, we fly as far as the UK, regularly fly to the US and conduct exercises with some European nations - that’s what training is for, we have Orion’s, we don’t have SR-71's.)
In 1997, India formally protested to Australia that an RAAF Orion flew low over the pride of its fleet, the new destroyer INS Delhi, south of India's Andaman Islands. (Yes and a formal apology was lodged even though the vessel was in international waters, everyone tests everyone’s reaction times, china does it with Taiwan, Russia did it with the US, US did it back, and we even do it to the USN etc... This is normal and is called probing)
The Orion photographed the ship and dropped sonar buoys near it. These would have collected enough information about noises emitted by the destroyer to paint a comprehensive picture of its power plant and propulsion system. This "signature" would be stored to enable Australia and its allies to later identify the ship by its noise alone.
(If you want to signature map a vessel in a clandestine fashion you use a sub, not a plane where its apparent what you are doing. - On top of that Australia shares Intel with long term allies, so if there was a need to get a signature of a vessel there is an easier way to get it - certainly not by using a plane)
The US aircraft involved in last week's incident is believed to have been trying to find or listen to either a new Chinese destroyer or one of two new Chinese submarines the Americans are worried about.
One is a variant of the Russian Kilo Class sub and the other a variant of the Victor III, designed to launch cruise missiles while submerged. That would make it ideal for attacking US aircraft carriers.
Professor Ball told The Sunday Age the RAAF Orion’s constantly patrolled a massive area of the Pacific between Australia and Butterworth in Malaysia. They would also head out across the South China Sea, around New Guinea and back over the Coral Sea.
(Seeing that Australia has aircraft based in Malaysia as a legacy of the "5 powers agreement" then that would seem to be pretty normal. New Guinea has been Australia’s responsibility even though they have independence, we fund up to a 1/3rd of their annual budget. Part of the process is assisting militarily in benign environments
Along the way they would intercept VHF and microwave signals from as far as 200 kilometres away.
"Our coverage is both what we're interested in, Indonesia basically, and broader coverage on behalf of the UK/USA community, which means from Burma across to the Coral Sea," Professor Ball said.
US liaison officers were stationed in the intercept facilities and processing facilities and at headquarters in Australia and the US.
"It's key stuff. You can't do anything unless you know what the electronic environment you're going to be operating in is.
"It's what tells you where things are located in terms of radar sites, communications antennae and communications beacons. It also tells you, by intercepting their communications, what they're planning to do. By monitoring radars on their aircraft you can tell when the aircraft move from strip to strip, so you can monitor their order of battle.
"You can target your own systems by keying them in to particular frequencies. If you want to hit an airport and you know the air- traffic control radar at that airport is on a certain frequency, then you can target your own things from 1000 kilometres away straight into that radar."
Extraordinarily sophisticated equipment aboard satellites, aircraft and warships and operating in land-based stations in Australia act as a series of massive electronic vacuum cleaners, sweeping up every kind of communication.
A mass of information from all sources flows to the Defense Signals Directorate headquarters, at Russell Hill, in Canberra. There, powerful computers sift the mundane - the conversations of the region's lovelorn teenagers, instructions to bring home some milk - from the potentially important.
The information might include details of military movements, plans to destabilize a government, hints at a terrorist operation, a people-smuggling racket or a drug transfer. It is passed on to specialist agencies for comprehensive analysis.
"It operates," says an expert, "not unlike a news agency distributing information to clients."
This vast net is bound to scoop up economic data and it is hard to imagine the system ignoring commercial information that might be used in trade negotiations.
Most of the information Australia collects comes from stations - at Kojarena, near Geraldton in WA, Shoal Bay in the Northern Territory and Waihopai in New Zealand - which intercept satellite signals.
There, the Defense Signals Directorate intercepts phone and other calls over a massive area extending from East Africa and Eastern Europe across all of Asia to the mid-Pacific and from the Antarctic up to Siberia.
Key targets are the Palapa satellites which provide the national telecommunications systems of Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei and Papua New Guinea.
More direct strategic surveillance will be provided by the Jindalee Operational Radar Network at Alice Springs from next year. ) it’s already active - how old is this data??)
The over-horizon radar system will monitor aircraft and ship movement’s right over Indonesia and possibly further north into Asia. (Under some tests it has been able to track a Landover driving through the middle of Australia - it can also track stealth aircraft - something that the US didn't realize we could do)
A key role of Australia's six Collins Class submarines is to gather intelligence using their own electronic equipment and by observing bases and shipping movements from periscope depth. Two submarines operated off Timor before and during the landings there. In a crisis, they would also be relied on heavily by Australia's allies, as the relatively small and maneuverable conventional submarines can operate much more effectively in the region's shallow inshore waters than the massive nuclear vessels of the US Navy. (they are actually the largest conventional subs in the world, so they're a little wrong here - they are fleet subs, designed to travel long range etc - if you hadn't noticed, australia is the largest island continent in the world - it's a big coast)
(yes, and they were also there to sink any Indonesian vessel that decided to escalate the east Timor conflict - all allowable under the UN mandate that Aust was operating under. The mandate allowed the use of protective force if there is a clear perception that the "vendor" is about to start shooting. All military capability in East Timor was there as force protection, IF the UN teams or UNAMET forces had been targeted, then those platforms were in a position to respond with maximum relevant force.)
Another analyst said electronic surveillance by ground stations was the most discreet way to gather information.
"If they see an aircraft cruising along their border with aerials sticking out, there is not a lot they can do legally if it is international territory. But it is an affront to them.
"With the ground stations they never see anything. The satellite is far above and the ground station is in your own country. You hoover up masses of information and they never know it. (which is also why you wouldn't use an Orion) in addition (and the point of this is? Of course ELINT can hoover up info, that’s how you monitor threats etc... - every military does it, its just that some have a better capability than some others.)
I would make no apologies about protecting east Timor, they protected Australian forces from the Japanese in World War 2, and we had a moral obligation to protect them, as was the UN's view. If it was me in charge, I would have done the same thing. If unarmed civilians are being attacked by armed militia under the direction and control of rogue elements of the military, then yes, send in the troops, sink their ships and knock out their capacity to wage war on a defenseless group of individuals.
Some of this info is palpably incorrect, some of it only touches what our interception and electronic warfare capability can do. Either way it does not show full events and outcomes.
If you are worried about surveillance and ELINT, then you might like to know that the capacity exists to hook into any transmission if there is a requirement. Part of what I used to do at a point in time was monitor traffic. EVERY nation does it. Only a few can go deep. (Maybe 4-5 all up)
(Btw Des Ball is an academic who lost his credibility about 20 years ago, he is still, living in cold war solutions)
(Finally, Australia would be one of the few nations that actually has meetings with other foreign defense ministers and military officers to discuss when we are about to go through a military platform purchase, we do that so that there is no misunderstanding about the reason for selection. To imply that any of these platforms are relegations to our neighbours is somewhat disingenuine. They know before the Australian Public knows.
There is more that I can add to this but it would be inappropriate for me to do so.)
Location: I'll tell u but then I'll have to shoot u
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Re: Lockhead Martin to sell weapons to India...
To su-37: Australia and Pakistan have been allies and friends since the SEATO&CENTO days.Indonesia has had a tiff with them since the sixties.
Note this as well RAAF operates only P3-C Orions not the EP-3 which is an exclusive US ONLY millitary asset operated by the USN in small nos with the squadrons VQ-1 atNAS Agana Guam and VQ-2 flying out of NAS Rota Spain.
And as for your getting wholesale F-16s in lieu of mig-21s my earlier post would have been enough to convince any sane person that why India or any other country won't go for a wholesale tech change in it's armed forces.
If Lockheed was giving you a piece of JSF's work then GOOD FOR YOU.
India's maritime planes flyover other countries ships all the time.Every navy does this it's a norm of the naval life and intelligence on new weapon systems has to be gathered one way or the other.Australia has to keep an eye on India because of your not so secret interest in the region where Australia has had great influence since the sixties.
Regarding the infastructure overhual , it is not a given day task , US need India to counterweight China , this is open sercret. MOreover India is not using Russian hardware with westrean electrons. In time futher ahead you cant ignore the possiblility that US supplyed India F16'sa F15's free of cost, in order to enggage india , like US dose in Cold war era.
If US has asked India to participate , then it shows that US is now Readying to arm India with HI-TECH wepons systems. In future also US will opens its all TECH to India. Iviting to JSF , which is 5th generation Fighter is a very IMportant thing , this shows that US is now comfortable wiht india in giving hi-tech systems. Moreoevr Indo -US group also negotiating on technoligical exchange of US current AMM sys.
Interesting logic, but a bit fanciful. As for the JSF, Indian companies want to bid as sub contractors of the tier 2 and 3 contractors, that is NOT the same as getting access to stealth technology, being part of the redesign processes, enhancements etc... BAE as the only Tier 1 prime is in a position to change and influence the design specs.
As far as i know, India and oz have good relations that are based on trade and an ethnic indian populace in australia. SU-37, why do you think aus is pro - pak and anti india...surely extrapolating one little incident and saying that aus is hostile to india is dumb?
