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Jf-17 thunder block-2 is under construction in real ????

This is a discussion on Jf-17 thunder block-2 is under construction in real ???? within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Thread moved to appropriate forum....


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Old October 24th, 2011   #16
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Old October 24th, 2011   #17
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HELL even the azerbaijani , sudanese and zimbabwe have ordered the jf 17's.....
I wasn't aware of any such developments. Is there any news article pointing to the same ?
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Old October 25th, 2011   #18
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the pac jf-17 or the CAC FC-1 Xiaolong was specifically made as per the requirements of the aging pakistani fleet comprising of Dassault Mirage III/5, Chengdu F-7 .
considering the state pakistan is in , it probably needed affordable , cheap to maintain 4th generation multi role combat aircraft.

but its not as though only pakistan is vying for this fighter . the egyptian military is planning to procure the jf 17 in co-operation with pakistan. HELL even the azerbaijani , sudanese and zimbabwe have ordered the jf 17's, iran , bangladesh and nigeria are potential buyers.

as far as china not procuring the jf 17 is concernd , it probably is betting on its FGFA j20 .
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There may be a deeper reason for not using a product one designed for another air force. After all, China, being an independent country with aspirations of power, has its own air force. Why should it retain the same airplane for itself that it sells to potential competitors? Why not simply keep superior tech or designs for itself and sell inferior designs to other countries?
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Old October 25th, 2011   #19
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China designed the JF-17 with Pakistan and must have spent millions and millions of dollars developing it, only not to use it ?
Can you put something that show JF-17 can do better than J-10 (which more and more become PLAF standard Fighters replacing J-7) ?
In other word, why PLAF has to commit them-self building another logistic and support infrastructure for JF-17, when they already have J-10 ?
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Old October 25th, 2011   #20
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China designed the JF-17 with Pakistan and must have spent millions and millions of dollars developing it, only not to use it ?

Pakistan is buying it in masses and other air forces seem interested in it so the fighter is battle worthy.

Yet China doesn't plan on introducing itself and YET is still upgrading the JF-17(Apparently a stealth variant and upgraded JF-17's are being designed).

Was the JF-17 all along an export intended jet which China planned on making large profits from ? I mean Pakistan has order 250 of them. That's plenty of money !. The low cost means that many air forces around the world can buy a fourth generation jet for a low cost making it very attractive.
Asian Defense News was VERY critical of the JF-17, Calling it the "Junk Fighter 17" and referring to its avionics as being a "Pirated software copy", its speed of Mach 1.6 as being slower than the F-7 (a Mig-21 derivative) it replaces, and to its structural design deficiency being such that the wings may take separate trajectories under anything more than an 8G load.

But, one bad review does not a bad airplane make. The SU-30K was also considered a "Bad" plane when it first appeared. But with current avionics and thrust vector, the MKI is a totally different beast. Pakistan will harness valuable experience with the JF-17 in areas of aircraft manufacturing, and will gain an increased level of American independence at a time when American relations with Pakistan is flagging. Despite any shortcomings that may or may not be identified, the JF-17 is still an improvement over the current Pakistani aircraft in service, with the exception of its last batch of F-16's. At a cost of about $15 million USD(possibly as low as $12 million), its still millions cheaper than the F-16 C/D which the United States refused to sell Pakistan as part of the weapons embargo of the 90's, and no longer delivers spare parts for.

All this said, I have not yet answered your original question. Why IS China not using the JF-17 for themselves? Its because the Chinese already have a multi-role combat aircraft in its J-10A. Reportedly with slightly better performance than the JF-17, but with a higher per unit price tag. China would not need an additional aircraft to perform the same role. The J-20 is China's current Stealth entry and would most likely not be interested in a new design while still completing the development of its first one. However, by winning over former U.S. and Soviet weapons customers, China expands their influence into areas formerly denied them. Where before we compared the latest American and Russian designs, now we are all taking about the Chinese.
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Old October 25th, 2011   #21
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Asian Defense News was VERY critical of the JF-17, Calling it the "Junk Fighter 17" and referring to its avionics as being a "Pirated software copy", its speed of Mach 1.6 as being slower than the F-7 (a Mig-21 derivative) it replaces, and to its structural design deficiency being such that the wings may take separate trajectories under anything more than an 8G load.
Well that's no great surprise, the blog itself (which is all it is) at least prefaces itself with this:

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This Portal is all about the defence news of asia, defence news of india...
You'd hardly expect to see a tremendous review of the aircraft there...

The JF-17 is designed as a low cost replacement for a variety of aging aircraft, to allow it's users to obtain a viable number of relatively modern strike fighters, to provide a respectable air combat and strike capability and to support (as an enabling capability) the higher end fighters / strikers in their job.

With these roles firmly in mind, no honest reviewer could state that the JF-17 won't meet it's design requirements perfectly.

Anyone who says otherwise I would suggest, is being intellectually dishonest.
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Old October 25th, 2011   #22
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Well that's no great surprise, the blog itself (which is all it is) at least prefaces itself with this:



You'd hardly expect to see a tremendous review of the aircraft there...

The JF-17 is designed as a low cost replacement for a variety of aging aircraft, to allow it's users to obtain a viable number of relatively modern strike fighters, to provide a respectable air combat and strike capability and to support (as an enabling capability) the higher end fighters / strikers in their job.

With these roles firmly in mind, no honest reviewer could state that the JF-17 won't meet it's design requirements perfectly.

Anyone who says otherwise I would suggest, is being intellectually dishonest.
Agreed.

The JF-17 was designed to replace the F-7 , the A-5s and the old Mirages and it does a good job replacing them.

Air forces which still operate 3rd gen air craft like F-7s, see the JF-17 as a cost effective entry into the world of 4th Gen fighters.

China already has replacement for its 3d gen ACs so the JF-17 is not required.
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Old October 25th, 2011   #23
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Air forces which still operate 3rd gen air craft like F-7s, see the JF-17 as a cost effective entry into the world of 4th Gen fighters.
Absolutely. Kept in this context, the JF-17 is a definite improvement over the 3rd generation aircraft currently being fielded. At the costs being reported on, it is a much lower cost alternative for those nations needing upgrades but without the budget for the more advanced, but costly, American, European, or even Russian aircraft. $12 million for a Gen 4 aircraft is extremely cheap.
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Old October 25th, 2011   #24
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Agreed.

The JF-17 was designed to replace the F-7 , the A-5s and the old Mirages and it does a good job replacing them.

Air forces which still operate 3rd gen air craft like F-7s, see the JF-17 as a cost effective entry into the world of 4th Gen fighters.

China already has replacement for its 3d gen ACs so the JF-17 is not required.

Hmm... I see contradictions in this post if I compare the first and the last sentence of it. China 'already' has replacements for its 3rd Gen aircraft? Where?

Last I checked, the PLAAF still had about 300 obsolete J-7s (not to be confused with JH-7A) in its inventory. The Pakistan Air Force is replacing its F-7PG (more modern version of J-7s) fleet with JF-17s; so it baffles logic as to why PLAAF would still be flying vintage J-7s. Personally, I wouldn't even rate JH-7A better than JF-17 - not to mention that two JH-7A's have already crashed between 2009 & 2011 killing three pilots in total, badly injuring a fourth.

All this, considering the fact that neither the J-10s, J-11s, or other similar mission-oriented aircraft are really entering service at a rate where they'd become the backbone of PLAAF at about 300-400 fighter strength.

If I have missed something or am unaware of regarding this, please do correct me. Thanks
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Old October 25th, 2011   #25
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Hmm... I see contradictions in this post if I compare the first and the last sentence of it. China 'already' has replacements for its 3rd Gen aircraft? Where?

Last I checked, the PLAAF still had about 300 obsolete J-7s (not to be confused with JH-7A) in its inventory. The Pakistan Air Force is replacing its F-7PG (more modern version of J-7s) fleet with JF-17s; so it baffles logic as to why PLAAF would still be flying vintage J-7s. Personally, I wouldn't even rate JH-7A better than JF-17 - not to mention that two JH-7A's have already crashed between 2009 & 2011 killing three pilots in total, badly injuring a fourth.

All this, considering the fact that neither the J-10s, J-11s, or other similar mission-oriented aircraft are really entering service at a rate where they'd become the backbone of PLAAF at about 300-400 fighter strength.

If I have missed something or am unaware of regarding this, please do correct me. Thanks
Lets see 3d hen replacements-J-10s, J-11s, Su-30s/27s

True, they are not entering service at a fast enough rate, which is why China keeps on modernizing the F-7s to keep them flyable.

The JF-17 at the end of the day provides no capability that the above mentioned air craft can't so really no point in adding another different fighter to the PLAAF's list.

When I said the JF-17 was mostly meant to replace the 3d gen fighters I was taking it mostly in the pov of Pakistan and other interested countries.
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Old October 25th, 2011   #26
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Lets see 3d hen replacements-J-10s, J-11s, Su-30s/27s

True, they are not entering service at a fast enough rate, which is why China keeps on modernizing the F-7s to keep them flyable.

The JF-17 at the end of the day provides no capability that the above mentioned air craft can't so really no point in adding another different fighter to the PLAAF's list.
But.. at what point does PLAAF begin to realize the 'law of diminishing returns'? Instead of constantly modifying its J-7 fleet which is well past its prime and ending up having 6-7 different variants of J-7s flying, wouldn't it make more sense to replace them all with ONE version of JF-17 - new aircraft + fresh life + return on investment in JF-17 program - which is definitely better than all the plethora of J-7s in service?
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Old October 25th, 2011   #27
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the issue is what relevance the platform has in chinas future orbat construct and in their changing CONOPs for those platforms.

I'd argue that they determined long ago that it was not suitable for main force development within the PLAAF and decided to use it as a partnering technology and political development solution.

ie. china is a continental power. look at her geograpgy from a geospatial and theatre perspective.. for the types of enemies potentially in play, I don't see much utility and benefit for her in fielding "hundreds" of these assets.

logistically her focus is on being able to reach and sustain in depth. I'm not convinced the JF17 offers that up at a sufficient level to make it more useful than the heavy twins already in play.
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Old October 25th, 2011   #28
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Last I checked, the PLAAF still had about 300 obsolete J-7s (not to be confused with JH-7A) in its inventory. The Pakistan Air Force is replacing its F-7PG (more modern version of J-7s) fleet with JF-17s; so it baffles logic as to why PLAAF would still be flying vintage J-7s. Personally, I wouldn't even rate JH-7A better than JF-17 - not to mention that two JH-7A's have already crashed between 2009 & 2011 killing three pilots in total, badly injuring a fourth.

All this, considering the fact that neither the J-10s, J-11s, or other similar mission-oriented aircraft are really entering service at a rate where they'd become the backbone of PLAAF at about 300-400 fighter strength.
According to PLAF, by end of last year, they already inducted close to 200 J-10 to their sq. If this true, then by this rate, they will replace most of J-7 by 2014. On relative slower rate the J-11 also being prepared for 300 in number. With around 400-500 J-10 and 200-300 J-11, I believe PLAF replacement for J-7 already complete.

Well you'll not expect PLAF back to thousand fighter fleet as before. After all with J-10 and J-11, they already move to quality then quantity.
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Old October 26th, 2011   #29
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I wasn't aware of any such developments. Is there any news article pointing to the same ?
Egypt is currently discussing a deal with Pakistan to co-produce the JF-17 for the Egyptian Air Force.[106] The Azerbaijani Air Force has negotiated with China for the purchase of several dozen JF-17, worth between 16 and 18 million dollars each.[107][108] The Sudanese Air Force is also reported to be negotiating for 12 aircraft.[109] The Air Force of Zimbabwe reportedly ordered 12 JF-17 in 2004,[110] but there are no current sources that confirm payment or intent of delivery.[111][112][113] An article in 2008 reported several other countries including Bangladesh, Iran and Nigeria have been identified as potential buyers.[4][114] In early 2010 it was reported that China had been in talks with around 5 to 6 countries on the JF-17, some of whom had sent air force pilots to test-fly the fighter.[115

source: wikipedia
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Old October 26th, 2011   #30
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Egypt is currently discussing a deal with Pakistan to co-produce the JF-17 for the Egyptian Air Force.[106]
Does not equal to sold.
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The Azerbaijani Air Force has negotiated with China for the purchase of several dozen JF-17, worth between 16 and 18 million dollars each.[107][108]
From the referenced article
China supplies FC-1 multipurpose fighters to Azerbaijan | Armenia News - NEWS.am
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China intends to supply FC-1 multipurpose fighters to Azerbaijan, Izvestia daily reads Nov.19 referring to the information that design was made with the assistance of Russian Aircraft Corporation “MiG”.
No deal made yet.
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The Sudanese Air Force is also reported to be negotiating for 12 aircraft.[109]
Lets wait for a deal to happen before declaring it sold.
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The Air Force of Zimbabwe reportedly ordered 12 JF-17 in 2004,[110] but there are no current sources that confirm payment or intent of delivery.[111][112][113]
I doubt the deal holds valid after such a long period. 7 years, no payment, no delivery ?
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An article in 2008 reported several other countries including Bangladesh, Iran and Nigeria have been identified as potential buyers.[4][114] In early 2010 it was reported that China had been in talks with around 5 to 6 countries on the JF-17, some of whom had sent air force pilots to test-fly the fighter.[115]
No one is denying that jf-17 has a sales potential, but the fact is that no one other than Pakistan has bought it yet.

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source: wikipedia
Which is a good source, if the references the article is using are good or are properly referenced.
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