This is a discussion on JASDF Mix? within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Considering the rapid growth of the PLAAF. What mix of fighters should the JASDF field to counter future threats?...
Typhoons can be in service earlier, enabling a prompt replacement of older aircraft as they reach the ends of their lives. Japan can get full access to Typhoon software & hardware, with the right to customise them freely & install Japanese equipment (e.g. a new Japanese AESA radar) at will.
In the event of a problem grounding one type, Japan will have another type still operational.
F-35 might facilitate the relatively low-key acquisition, via F-35B, of a shipborne fixed-wing fighter force. It could be better for first day of war strikes against critical targets such as ballistic missile launch sites, & other hard targets.
Typhoons can be in service earlier, enabling a prompt replacement of older aircraft as they reach the ends of their lives. Japan can get full access to Typhoon software & hardware, with the right to customise them freely & install Japanese equipment (e.g. a new Japanese AESA radar) at will.
In the event of a problem grounding one type, Japan will have another type still operational.
F-35 might facilitate the relatively low-key acquisition, via F-35B, of a shipborne fixed-wing fighter force. It could be better for first day of war strikes against critical targets such as ballistic missile launch sites, & other hard targets.
The F-35 will very likely enter service with the JASDF at some point and maybe even the JMSDF. While, you make some worthwhile arguments. I don't see them as a stronger case vs a single F-35 Fleet. Thats just my opinion. Which, is no reflection on the excellent "Typhoon".
Time of replacement is a strong point all on it's own.
The JASDF need a replacement for their Phantoms and they need it ASAP.
Customizing imported systems has always been high on the wishlist of Japan. One just has to look at their F-15s, Kongos, AWACS, etc.
The same applies for being able to build and asemble the imported systems in Japan.
Japan wants to retain a nearly fully independent defense industry which might ramp up production all on it's own if the need arises. This is the reason for them building many small and expensive batches of their own equipment while the foreign stuff is build and customized in Japan.
And having to ground an entire fleet of one type of aircraft may very well happen. Just look at the US and their recent F-15 grounding.
With a 2 type fleet they are able to work around such a grounding.
With just one type their air warfare capabilities are severely hampered or they have to take a higher risk and may lose more aircrafts (and possibly pilots).
A two aircraft fleet with so different but excellent fighters is also going to cause a much bigger headache for any adversary as he has to plan for and cope with two totally different systems all with their own advantages and disadvantages.
Time of replacement is a strong point all on it's own.
The JASDF need a replacement for their Phantoms and they need it ASAP.
Customizing imported systems has always been high on the wishlist of Japan. One just has to look at their F-15s, Kongos, AWACS, etc.
The same applies for being able to build and asemble the imported systems in Japan.
Japan wants to retain a nearly fully independent defense industry which might ramp up production all on it's own if the need arises. This is the reason for them building many small and expensive batches of their own equipment while the foreign stuff is build and customized in Japan.
And having to ground an entire fleet of one type of aircraft may very well happen. Just look at the US and their recent F-15 grounding.
With a 2 type fleet they are able to work around such a grounding.
With just one type their air warfare capabilities are severely hampered or they have to take a higher risk and may lose more aircrafts (and possibly pilots).
A two aircraft fleet with so different but excellent fighters is also going to cause a much bigger headache for any adversary as he has to plan for and cope with two totally different systems all with their own advantages and disadvantages.
Not putting all of your eggs in one basket always has merit. Yet, I don't see the Japanese buying non-American. (at least fighters) Plus, the fact in another couple of decades unmanned aircraft maybe the norm.
So, personally I could see the F-35 in JASDF Service. Replacing first the F-4's and then F-15's. Which, could see a F-2 Replacement being unmanned with something like projected X-47. Of course that is way in the future. Its more guess work than anything based in reality.
Well the F-35 won't be available when the JASDF has to retire its F-4s. That would leave a fighter gap for quite some time and I don't think Japan is really interested in such a gap. Furthermore the new japanese government doesn't seem to be so much orientated towards the US as were previous governments and the Typhoon would be ideal both operationally and economically. There would be great benefits for the japanese Industry which can't be discarded and as the JASDF is primarily looking at a capable air defence fighter/interceptor Typhoon is a logical and good choice.
Well the F-35 won't be available when the JASDF has to retire its F-4s. That would leave a fighter gap for quite some time and I don't think Japan is really interested in such a gap. Furthermore the new japanese government doesn't seem to be so much orientated towards the US as were previous governments and the Typhoon would be ideal both operationally and economically. There would be great benefits for the japanese Industry which can't be discarded and as the JASDF is primarily looking at a capable air defence fighter/interceptor Typhoon is a logical and good choice.
Oh, I disagree as the F-35 could be made available with in the next ten years. Also, if the JASDF needs a small number of aircraft as a stop gap before the F-35's come on line. They could just produce more F-2's. Which, has been recently discussed. (Like the RAAF and USN did with the Super Hornet)
Further, Japan's National Defense is firmly tied to its relationship with the US. As they are very well aware than Europe isn't going to drop everything to come to there Aid.. In an event of a Major Conflict in Southeast Asia.
I would add that the F-35 Version of the F-35A and F-35B are ideal for Japan. Beside operating the same type of aircraft as the majority of its Allies. The F-35A can loiter for long periods over Japanese Air Space and totally Stealthy at that. While, the F-35B can operate from remote sites and even ships.
Oh, I disagree as the F-35 could be made available with in the next ten years. Also, if the JASDF needs a small number of aircraft as a stop gap before the F-35's come on line. They could just produce more F-2's. Which, has been recently discussed. (Like the RAAF and USN did with the Super Hornet)
Regarding the RAAF and USN, that's not really how it worked. The USN agreed to let us step in to their existing production run in order to get our Supers more quickly - so it was an existing, and a large, production line. For the F-2 however I believe you'd have to start up the entire production line again, as from what I know production stopped a few years ago.
The F-2 is no option for follow-on orders. Its ridiculously expensive for what it offers. The procurement of new foreign systems, from the US or Europe is a more viable option under any circumstances.
As was pointed out, there is a new government in Japan, and it differs with the US on quite some significant points. It wont put the strategic affiliation of Japan at risk, but a partial buy of Europan aircraft wont do that anyway. In fact the US these days have a very strong incentive to keep the Japanese at their side as the other way around, for reasons primarily concerning NK and China of course. Therefore this relationship cannot be strained easily by the Japanese following somewhat different procurement policies compared to what they did in the past. The budgetary situation in Japan is very problematic, to put it mildly. Therefore it seems imperative to also get a weapon system, that can be customised significantly in order to maximise Japanese involvement and benefits. In this regard the Eurofighter cannot be beaten by any US system.
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Oh, I disagree as the F-35 could be made available with in the next ten years.
This "next ten years"-issue is exactly the problem and the reason why Japan considers an interim procurement. They do not have ten years time so wait what happens. The F-4 basically need replacements yesterday.
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Last edited by turin; October 14th, 2009 at 08:43 PM.
Reason: spelling
Regarding the RAAF and USN, that's not really how it worked. The USN agreed to let us step in to their existing production run in order to get our Supers more quickly - so it was an existing, and a large, production line. For the F-2 however I believe you'd have to start up the entire production line again, as from what I know production stopped a few years ago.
Incorrect..............The F-2 will be in production until 2011 or beyond.
Sorry, you will have to translate unless you can read Japanese.
Date: Aug 20, 2009
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The amber lights have in continuation of domestic fighter plane production. Because 2011, procurement schedule of the close support fighter F2 by Air Self Defense Force ends before, American Lockheed Martin who produces the portion and the like of the main wing the policy of closing the line even during this month is set. The additional order of F2 becomes difficult, means that also production at the Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd. which assemble the fuselage ends in 11. Assuming that the FX which is in the midst of selecting (FX) it could recognize domestic license production after 18. From the fact that it becomes considerable blank, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and the like sees maintenance of production system becomes difficult,
Sorry, you will have to translate unless you can read Japanese.
Date: Aug 20, 2009
Quote:
The amber lights have in continuation of domestic fighter plane production. Because 2011, procurement schedule of the close support fighter F2 by Air Self Defense Force ends before, American Lockheed Martin who produces the portion and the like of the main wing the policy of closing the line even during this month is set. The additional order of F2 becomes difficult, means that also production at the Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd. which assemble the fuselage ends in 11. Assuming that the FX which is in the midst of selecting (FX) it could recognize domestic license production after 18. From the fact that it becomes considerable blank, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and the like sees maintenance of production system becomes difficult,
Indeed? My apologies - the information I was reading indicated the production line finished around the 2006-2007 mark.
The youngest F-4 in Japanese service is 28 years old with a probable average age of 30 or more.
Other nations still operate F-4's that are older yet.
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JASDF can't wait for the JSF to arrive. A qualified guess would be that replacements need to begin to arrive within 3 years.
Even the Typhoon couldn't be operational in three years. Especially, with the require Japanese Content.
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The two aircraft that are in play would be the Typhoon or the F-15.
Neither type is really a viable option in "my opinion". As I don't see Japan buying European. At least not Fighter Types. For both Political and Strategic Reasons. The F-15 is already in service and is becoming obsolete. Both are non-starters.........Though the F-15 could be bought as a stop gap until the F-35 becomes available. Yet, it would be very expensive to re-start production. Which, gets back to the F-2. Which, has higher Japanese Content and is still in production.
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And perhaps to the detriment of posters who like the F-15, I'd clearly consider the Typhoon the better option of the two.
While, the Typhoon maybe a little more capable fighter than the current F-15CJ Eagle. Both are likely to be no better than future models of the Flanker and inferior to the forthcoming J-XX (J-14?)
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The two ifs, is that F-15 production in Japan could be done on existing tooling, and then the relationship with the U.S.
Personally, I don't see Japan re-starting F-15 Production. Especially, with the F-2 line still open. Also, remember the F-4's need to be replaced first. Which, the F-2 is ideally suited for in the strike fighter role. The current F-15 Fleet is not in immediate danger. So, it can wait for the F-35.
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But the JSF cannot make it within the time constraints.
The Japanese seem to disagree with your accessment. As they put off the decision to replace the F-4's last year. Just recently they started looking once again. Thought most of the focus appears to be on the F-35.
JASDF Mix? 
