Japan May Join Next-Generation Stealth Jet Project

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Japan May Join Next-Generation Stealth Jet Project
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, TOKYO

Japan is considering joining the U.S.-led project to build the world’s most advanced combat jet, the F-35, after this month, ending its decades-old ban on military exports, a newspaper said Dec. 24.

A dozen other U.S. allies are already taking part in the Joint Strike Fighter program, including Australia, Britain, Canada, Denmark, Italy, the Netherlands, Singapore and Turkey.

The U.S. government has appointed defense contractor Lockheed Martin to build the F-35, which will be a supersonic, multiple-role warplane.

Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi’s cabinet, the Defense Agency and the Trade Ministry will hold further talks over Japan’s participation in the program before seeking approval of the ruling coalition, the Sankei Shimbun reported, quoting a defense industry source.

“It is now difficult for a single country to be engaged in such development,†the unnamed source told the newspaper.

A Defense Agency spokesman, however, told AFP the government has not “officially begun consideration of such international military development.â€

Japan cleared the way for such projects by establishing new defense guidelines this month, asserting that the country needs “multi-function, flexible defense capabilities†to deal with new threats, such as terrorist and missile attacks.

The guidelines ended Japan’s self-imposed ban on weapons exports, saying Tokyo could sell missile components to the United States, with other military sales to be reviewed on a case-by-case basis.

A Dec. 23 press report said Japan is considering exporting decommissioned destroyers to Singapore and Malaysia.

The constitution imposed by U.S. occupiers after World War II said Japan would forever renounce war. Koizumi’s government has eyed revising Japan’s official pacifism and sent troops on a reconstruction mission to Iraq.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=572464&C=asiapac

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This reinforces what I have said with respect to China and the submarine issues, survey vessel issue etc... China has overstepped the line for Japan and they are now moving to block at appropriate levels.

Japan has been sending the oriental equivalent of "warning messages" for the last 6 months in respected papers such as the Japan Times. I would suspect that some strategists within the PLA are doing some fast explaining at the moment.

China has just put herself in a flanking manouvre. japan has the most powerful conventional fleet in the world, her military spending dwarfs that of China, and she is able to go nuclear within 6 months (considering the way that she stores her fuel and processes it). We did an assessment a few years back and established that she could go nuclear within 6 months and surpass chinese weapons numbers between a further 6-12 months with minimal effort. her storage could see her build weapons stocks greater than the french or israelis (who outpace China curently). Anyone who questions that Japan would look at nuclear weapons should bear in mind that this has been coming up frequently in the last 2 months, was re-raisded when the Chinese sub was in her EEZ and that Japan has already made changes to her defensive posture that people have said for 30+ years would never happen.

The winds are changing direction.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
This is from Japenese side only, Has US said any thing regarding this F-35 deal?
(We were having discussion on this in some other thread too, thanx for pitching this one in)
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
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  • #3
SABRE said:
This is from Japenese side only, Has US said any thing regarding this F-35 deal?
(We were having discussion on this in some other thread too, thanx for pitching this one in)
If you're aware of the way that Japan plays politics, then you'll know that Japan doesn't make announcements or release information like this unless there is some substance.

In light of what has happened with respect to Japan in the last 3 months, Chinas announcements over Taiwan, and recent public announcements by Kozuimi about changing Japans defence posture - then you can be highly confident that there is unlikey to be resistance from either the US or the other major consortium signatory (whoes approval is required if new players request access)

The announcement has some greater subtleties involved which I'm sure the Chinese have worked out fairly quickly (bearing in mind some of what I have just said in prev para).
 

srirangan

Banned Member
China stepped out of line one too many times, still I guess if everyone keeps a low profile for a while things will fall back to normal.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
I don't think the USA would hesitate to sell F-35's or just about anything else Japan wanted to buy. The greater the strategic burden that Japan is willing to accept, is all good as far as the USA is concerned. The only impediment will be the industrial involvement Japan will get in building this aircraft...
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
SABRE said:
Which AC does Japan has right now besides Mitsubishi F-2?
They have Mitsubishi F-1 which evolved out of the T-2 trainer. It's role is maritime strike. Also Japan has around 150 F-4 Phantoms and 199 units of F-15J for air superiority.

An photo of F-1


The F-2 project has been scrapped a few months ago due to high cost of production. I believe the unit price is around 80 millions/piece. So it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out Japan will look for a cheaper advance fighter somewhere else and the JSF provided just that. Although it's unlikely the F-35 will be ready for service before 2010.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Despite canning the F-2 project, they will still have about 80 or so of them in line service...
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
What, is it also Japan's policy to maintain not so leathal ACs. F-1 doesnt seem to be much of a fighter, might be similar to mirage-3. & Isnt F-15J the stripped down version of F-15s?
 

Superbug

New Member
gf0012-aust said:
Anyone who questions that Japan would look at nuclear weapons should bear in mind that this has been coming up frequently in the last 2 months, was re-raisded when the Chinese sub was in her EEZ and that Japan has already made changes to her defensive posture that people have said for 30+ years would never happen.

The winds are changing direction.
China is capable of annihiliating Japan with push of a button, you think Japan is capable of doing that? I don't think it's wise for Japan to arm itself with nuke and repeat its pre-WWII path. What Japan is doing, including Japanese PM's visit to Yasukuni Shrine, its change of defense policies, building of quasi-aircraft carriers, has raised eyebrows all its neighboring countries.
 

highsea

New Member
Superbug said:
China is capable of annihiliating Japan with push of a button, you think Japan is capable of doing that?
Somehow I don't think the US would take too kindly to that. China is in no position to threaten Japan. Patrioism is great, Superbug, but mindless chest-thumping means nothing. China doesn't have the military forces to attack Japan conventionally, and a nuclear missile attack would trigger an overwhelming response against China. I'm sure the planners in Beijing are well aware of the facts.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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  • #12
Superbug said:
gf0012-aust said:
Anyone who questions that Japan would look at nuclear weapons should bear in mind that this has been coming up frequently in the last 2 months, was re-raisded when the Chinese sub was in her EEZ and that Japan has already made changes to her defensive posture that people have said for 30+ years would never happen.

The winds are changing direction.
China is capable of annihiliating Japan with push of a button, you think Japan is capable of doing that? I don't think it's wise for Japan to arm itself with nuke and repeat its pre-WWII path. What Japan is doing, including Japanese PM's visit to Yasukuni Shrine, its change of defense policies, building of quasi-aircraft carriers, has raised eyebrows all its neighboring countries.
and have you looked at Chinas equipment builds in the last few years? she has re-armed faster than all other east asian and sth east asian countries combined. considering the fact that she is making noises about the Spratlys and the 3 Island Chains - who do you think they are nervous about? It's not Japan I can assure you.
 

Superbug

New Member
highsea said:
Superbug said:
China is capable of annihiliating Japan with push of a button, you think Japan is capable of doing that?
Somehow I don't think the US would take too kindly to that. China is in no position to threaten Japan. Patrioism is great, Superbug, but mindless chest-thumping means nothing. China doesn't have the military forces to attack Japan conventionally, and a nuclear missile attack would trigger an overwhelming response against China. I'm sure the planners in Beijing are well aware of the facts.
First of all, I appreciate your wording of "Patroism". Not too many people who come from US use Patroism when comes to China, Nationism is the de facto word. Secondly, I never claimed myself to be very "mindful".

My previous comment was a mere response to the initial post regarding Japanese nuke ambitions. I am sure planners in Beijing is full of aware of the exact scenario you just described, that is why i find it amusing to see western intelligent claiming China not to have more than 20 or 22 ICBM missles for last 20 years. Under present conditions, Japan might triump China in sea and air, but Japan would be mindless to get into a nuke arm race with China. China can sustain 10 nuclear attacks while Japan might only be able to sustain one, how many can US sustain? I am sure planners in the US and Japan are mindful of that. Of course, I am sure all of them are more mindful of me.

ps. push of a button does NOT equal to ONE missle attack.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Small talk, Japan has bigger & better allies than China has. Attack on Japan would mean a Virtual attack on its allies.Wheather the Jap Allies take arms against China or not they'll still go far enough to make China suffer economicaly & economics is some thing China is not willing to risk.

Any ways I have never herd any thing abt the post WW2 Japenese Army. Compared to Chinese Army & its doctorine how good or bad r Japanese. They have had a long time since the fought in any war or conflict.
 

highsea

New Member
Superbug said:
My previous comment was a mere response to the initial post regarding Japanese nuke ambitions...Under present conditions, Japan might triump China in sea and air, but Japan would be mindless to get into a nuke arm race with China. China can sustain 10 nuclear attacks while Japan might only be able to sustain one, how many can US sustain? I am sure planners in the US and Japan are mindful of that. Of course, I am sure all of them are more mindful of me.

ps. push of a button does NOT equal to ONE missle attack.
The point is that China can do nothing if Japan decides to go nuclear. In fact, Japan has some pretty good reasons to do just that. Not just threats from China in the form of incursions into Japanese waters, but North Korea's recent threats also.

China's nuclear force is an effective deterrent against attack, but nothing more. It is not a first strike capability, and if used against Japan (or the US) in that role, there are 14 Ohio Class SSBN's armed with over 2,000 nuclear warheads that China better think about (that's 24 Trident 2's with 8 warheads each, PER boat).

Right now, Japan relies on the US for defence. But that does not mean that is a permanent situation, and I don't think the US would object to Japan taking more steps to deter an attack from hostile countries. Japan's changing defence posture is not a result of imperialistic ambitions on her own part, but concerns of an attack by her enemies. Comparisons to pre-WW2 Japan are not relevant, because Japan's economic and energy situation today is completely different.
 

Superbug

New Member
highsea said:
Superbug said:
My previous comment was a mere response to the initial post regarding Japanese nuke ambitions...Under present conditions, Japan might triump China in sea and air, but Japan would be mindless to get into a nuke arm race with China. China can sustain 10 nuclear attacks while Japan might only be able to sustain one, how many can US sustain? I am sure planners in the US and Japan are mindful of that. Of course, I am sure all of them are more mindful of me.

ps. push of a button does NOT equal to ONE missle attack.
The point is that China can do nothing if Japan decides to go nuclear. In fact, Japan has some pretty good reasons to do just that. Not just threats from China in the form of incursions into Japanese waters, but North Korea's recent threats also.

China's nuclear force is an effective deterrent against attack, but nothing more. It is not a first strike capability, and if used against Japan (or the US) in that role, there are 14 Ohio Class SSBN's armed with over 2,000 nuclear warheads that China better think about (that's 24 Trident 2's with 8 warheads each, PER boat).

Right now, Japan relies on the US for defence. But that does not mean that is a permanent situation, and I don't think the US would object to Japan taking more steps to deter an attack from hostile countries. Japan's changing defence posture is not a result of imperialistic ambitions on her own part, but concerns of an attack by her enemies. Comparisons to pre-WW2 Japan are not relevant, because Japan's economic and energy situation today is completely different.
I don't believe US wants enter a nuclear missle shooting contest with China right, nor wants to fight a nuke armed Japan once more. The point is US will NOT allow Japan to go nuclear. If Japan's changing defence posture is not a result of imperialistic ambitions on her own part, how do you explain japan's refusal to acknowledge its invasions and atrocities in its neighboring countries during WW 2, like German did. It has proceeded to re-write textbooks to reflect its latest political moves.
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
Superbug, I'm glad that you are pround of China, but being blinded by the sense of nationalism does not help the fact that China is at least a decade behind Japan in terms of military development. The bulk of PLAN is still consisiting of vessels from 60's Soviet technology. PLAAF at this point is no better off, you can see evidence of this from the large J-6's and J-7's still in service today.

And about using nuclear weapon, China has clearly stated they will not use nuclear weapon unless it is being attacked with nuclear weapon. So in another words, no first use policy. I doubt any Chinese leader with half a brain would try to nuke Japan if they decide to go nuclear as it will trigger an international scale crisis or even worse, nuclear war. I've been a mod in Chinese forums and I've seen many posters rant about nuking Japan and slaughtering their population all day long. Unfortunately very few has a head cool enough to think about the effects of such an action.
 

highsea

New Member
Superbug said:
I don't believe US wants enter a nuclear missle shooting contest with China right, nor wants to fight a nuke armed Japan once more. The point is US will NOT allow Japan to go nuclear. If Japan's changing defence posture is not a result of imperialistic ambitions on her own part, how do you explain japan's refusal to acknowledge its invasions and atrocities in its neighboring countries during WW 2, like German did. It has proceeded to re-write textbooks to reflect its latest political moves.
No one said the US wants to fight a nuclear war with China. You seemed to think it was okay for China to threaten Japan with "annihiliating Japan with push of a button". I was only pointing out that this would not be a wise move for China.

The reason I say that Japan's changing posture is not a result of imperialistic ambitions, is because the conditions for Japan today are not what they were in the 1930's. Japan was heavily dependant on resources from outside her borders. Thus, she sought to expand the areas she controlled. This situation was exacerbated by the world-wide depression of the time. The driving force was the fear that conflict might be forced upon Japan in the future, which meant that to remain secure Japan needed raw materials and larger markets.

The result was the conquest of Manchuria, followed by the war with China, and then the occupation of Indochina. This last move triggered the American oil embargo, which pushed Japan into attacking the West before it ran out of oil.

The post World War II reconstruction of international politics (and the Japanese domestic system) has brought Japan security that she lacked in the 1930's, economic dominance of South East Asia, and access to markets all around the world. So the forces that were in play then, simply do not apply today. The US is in no fear of fighting a nuclear war with Japan. She is one of our closest allies, and our economic ties make such a war unrealistic.

In addition to the economic ties, Japan occupies an important strategic position, and the US will not permit that to be threatened by China or North Korea. So the US could very possibly support a nuclear Japan to protect that position, since is integral to US missile defence plans (Aegis warships based in Japan, and equipped with SM-3's are an important component of the boost phase intercept package).
 

Superbug

New Member
Pathfinder-X said:
Superbug, I'm glad that you are pround of China, but being blinded by the sense of nationalism does not help the fact that China is at least a decade behind Japan in terms of military development. The bulk of PLAN is still consisiting of vessels from 60's Soviet technology. PLAAF at this point is no better off, you can see evidence of this from the large J-6's and J-7's still in service today.

And about using nuclear weapon, China has clearly stated they will not use nuclear weapon unless it is being attacked with nuclear weapon. So in another words, no first use policy. I doubt any Chinese leader with half a brain would try to nuke Japan if they decide to go nuclear as it will trigger an international scale crisis or even worse, nuclear war. I've been a mod in Chinese forums and I've seen many posters rant about nuking Japan and slaughtering their population all day long. Unfortunately very few has a head cool enough to think about the effects of such an action.
If you refer to my previous post, everybody acknowleged that chinese navy and air force under current conditions are way behind japanese.

The way you interpret my remarking about nuking japan is very unique, to say the least. Nuclear weapons are most powerful when they're rested in their lauching vehicles. Nobody said about nuking japan, what i was talking about was Japanese nuclear ambition and chinese capability to counter japanese nuke arms. I hope you didn't pre-judge my remarks and getting carried away either.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Sorry; but since u boy & 3 mods r not taking a notice, v r way off :eek:fftopic
& u r drifting along with it.

Shouldnt u people divide the thread?
 
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