J-10, not as bad as you think

ultrafang

New Member
Basic translation.

Chinese claim that the J-10's capabilities far surpasses the SU-27 and is at a same level as the latest F-15, Jas-39, Mirage 2000, and Mig-29.

Cockpit include 3 large MFDs designed in a westernized style.

The plane's max lift off weight is 18 tons, can carry 7 tons of weapons which include the latest Chinese made short and mid reange SAMS as well as the Russian made R-73, and R-27. The J-10 can also carry the YJ Series (C-801/802/803) anti-ship cruise missiles.

J-10's radar can track 24 targets at a time and engage 4 of them. It has an 140 KM range forward, and 65 KM rare detection range.

Combat radius 1100KM. Max speed Mach 2.0

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/j10_0018.jpg

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/11774295_203336.jpg
 
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highsea

New Member
ultrafang said:
Chinese claim that the J-10's capabilities far surpasses the SU-27 and is at a same level as the latest F-15, Jas-39, Mirage 2000, and Mig-29.
Seems like a pretty broad claim, the AC mentioned are not exactly in the same class.
ultrafang said:
J-10 is CAPABLE OF SUPERCRUISE!!!!
Do you have data on this? I can see perhaps transonic speeds ~1.05 Mach clean, but I kind of doubt it will be able to do that with a warload, since everything is caried externally.
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
higsea, don't take those pictures seriously. It's just some model at a display and made up specs about the plane. China has yet to officially announce that J-10 exist, so most of the so called "Technical Data" is just some dreamy kids making it up.
 

dabrownguy

New Member
Damn it when is it gonna be offical!!!!!!
I hate some kids showing diagrams of J-12 or J-13! it is just a imagination! get real!
Btw i really doubt comparing the Su-27 to J-10 is fair. They are completly different!
But comparing the the J-10 to Mirage 2000 is good comparision.
so here goes.
Btw i my only source for Mirage is BR i'll find others.
Specifications

Countries of Origin FranceBuilder team : Dassault Aviation, SNECMA, Thomson-CSF First flight : March, 1978 [Mirage 2000C]
February, 1991 [Mirage 2000D] In-service in the French Air Force : Summer 1983 [Mirage 2000C]
April, 1993 [Mirage 2000D] Similar Aircraft Mirage III/5
Kfir
Viggen
CrewOne
Mirage 2000N & 2000D -- two [ 1 pilot + 1 navigation and weapon officer]
RoleInterceptor [Mirage 2000C]
All weather night and day missions such as Battlefield Air Interdiction (BAI) [Mirage 2000D] Major operational capabilities : [Mirage 2000D]
Automated terrain following at very high speed and very low altitude
All-weather night and day bombing capability
High precision all weather day/night bombing with Thomson-CSF PDL-CT Length 50 ft, 3 in (14.36 m)Span 29 ft, 5 in (9.13 m)Height 5.30 meters Empty Weight 7,600 kg [Mirage 2000C] Maximum Weight 16,500 kg Maximal armament weight : 5,900 kg [Mirage 2000C]
6,200 kg (9 store stations) [Mirage 2000D] Power plant / Thrust : SNECMA M 53 P2 jet engine / 9.7 t with afterburner Maximum Speed Mach 1,2 [low altitude]
Mach 2,2 [high altitude] Rate of Climb 17,000 m/min Ceiling Above 50,000 ft / 16,500 m Combat Radius<LI>800 nm (1,475 km) w/
4 250-kg bombs <LI>1,000 nm (1,850 km) w/
2 1,700-liter drop tanks <LI>1,800 nm (3,335 km) max fuel w/
2 1,700-liter + 1 1,300-liter drop tanks In-Flight RefuelingYesFuel capacity : [Mirage 2000C]
3,950 l internal / 8,000 l maximal / in-flight refuelling [Mirage 2000D]
3,1 t internal / 6,2 t maximal / In-flight refuelling

SensorsRDI radar (interceptor), RWR, Advanced bombsightDrop Tanks1700 L drop tank 1358 kg of fuel for 188 nm of range
1300 L drop tank 1038 kg of fuel for 144 nm of rangeArmamentCannon : 2 GIAT DEFA 554 de 30 mm
Air-air : missiles MICA, Magic 2, Super 530F,Super 530D Sky Flash.
Air-ground bombs : BGL 1000, BM400, BAP 100
<LI>Air-ground missiles : Durandal, Belouga, Armat, Apache, Scalp, AS30L, AM39, ASMP

TYPICAL LOADS
2 AM.39 Exocet, 1 1300 L drop Tank (855 nm)
1 1300 L drop tank, 2 ARMAT, 2 R.550 Magic (885 nm)
1 1300 L drop tank, 2R.500 Magic, 2 R.530D (885 nm)
4 Belouga, 2 1700 L drop tank, 2 R.550 Magic (1094 nm)
18 EU2 250 kg bombs (756 nm) Special equipment : [Mirage 2000C]
Thomson-CSF RDI radar (pulse doppler), look down-shoot down capacity, integrated electronic counter-measures, fly-by-wire, automatic pilot, inertial guidance system [Mirage 2000D]
Fly-by-wire system, 2 inertial navigation systems, Thomson-CSF Antilope 5 terrain following radar, Icare digital map, integrated GPS, integrated countermeasures, laser designation pod with thermal camera (PDL-CT)

NATO interoperability : Protected radiocommunications, identification friend or foe, in-flight refuelling by NATO aircraft, armament and ammunitions in accordance with NATO standards Number of units produced : 526 (all types of Mirage 2000 included) French Air Force inventory : 80 aircraft in 4 squadrons [Mirage 2000C]
60 aircraft in 3 squadrons [Mirage 2000C] User Countries
(all types of Mirage 2000 included) Egypt
France
Greece
India
Peru
Qatar
Taiwan
United Arab Emirates
source was Fas.org

The Jian-10 (J-10) is the multirole fighter aircraft developed by 611 Aircraft Design Institute (Chengdu) and built by Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC). Development of the J-10 began in 1984 and the first low-rate initial production aircraft was delivered to the PLA Air Force in 2002. The J-10 is available in two variants: the single seat fighter J-10A and the two-seat fighter-trainer J-10B.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T

PROGRAMME

The J-10 fighter was developed in the early 1980s as a counter to the Soviet Union’s emerging fourth-generation fighters such as the MiG-29 Fulcrum and Su-27 Flanker. The original requirement was air superiority, but the break-up of the Soviet Union and changing requirements shifted development towards a high-performance multirole fighter aircraft to replace the ageing J-6s and J-7s that are the backbone of China’s air force. The J-10 is based on the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI)’s Lavi fighter. After the Lavi programme was cancelled in 1987, its design was taken over by CAC, and IAI carried on with the development of avionic equipment.

The PLAAF originally planned to fit the J-10 fighter with Western-made turbofan engine and fire-control radar. Following the event in June 1989, the U.S. and other Western countries imposed an arms ban on China, which almost traumatised the J-10’s development. However, the end of the Cold War enabled China to seek advanced aviation and defence technologies from its new alley Russia, who agreed to provide the AL-31F turbofan engine to power the J-10. As a result, the rear portion of the J-10’s airframe had to be re-designed to fit the Russian powerplant, and this has caused further delays in the aircraft’s development.

The J-10 first flew in 1998, but the aircraft suffered serious problems with the fly-by-wire (FBW) software, which resulted in the loss of the No.2 prototype and its pilot in 1999. After some re-design work, the revised J-10 successfully flew in 1998. By 2000 a total of six prototypes (1001~1006) had been built. Three more prototypes (1007~1009) were built between 2000 and 2002. The low-rate initial production of the J-10 was authorised in 2002, and the first batch is expected to include about fifty aircraft fitted with Russian AL-31F engines. The two-seat J-10B fighter-trainer aircraft successfully flew in 2003.

The J-10 is expected to achieve initial operating capability by 2005~2006, and the first operational regiment of the J-10 is reported to be the PLAAF 44th Aviation Division based in Sichuan Province. The PLAAF was estimated to have a total requirement of 300 aircraft, but this may be reduced to less than 100 as a result of the introduction of the more capable Su-30MK multirole fighter. The CAC is also trying to replace the Russian AL-31F with the indigenously developed WS-10A, which is said to be a Chinese copy of the AL-31FN. The J-10 may become available for export market in 2005~2006.

DESIGN

The single-engine J-10 fighter is similar in size to the Lockheed Martin F-16, with a rectangle belly air intake, low-mounted delta wings and a pair of from canard wings. The design is aerodynamically unstable, to provide a high level of agility, low drag and enhanced lift. The pilot controls the aircraft through a computerised digital fly-by-wire (FBW) system, which provides artificial stabilisation and gust elevation to give good control characteristics throughout the flight envelope. The J-10 is also the first Chinese-made fighter to be fitted with a large two-piece bubble canopy to give the pilot a better view in close air combat.

COCKPIT

The J-10's cockpit is fitted with three flat-panel liquid crystal multifunction displays (MFDs), including one colour MFD, wide field-of-view head-up display (HUD), and possibly helmet-mounted sight (HMS). It is not know whether the HMS is the basic Ukrainian Arsenel HMS copied by China's Luoyang Avionics, or a new helmet display featured briefly at the 2000 Zhuhai air show.

The pilot manipulates the J-10 by the Iron Bird quadruple (four channels) digital fly-by-wire (FBW) system. The pilot is also aided by advanced autopilot and air data computer.

RADAR

The J-10 is reported to be fitted with an indigenous KLJ-3 pulse-Doppler fire-control radar developed by Nanjing Research Institute of Electronic Technology (also known as 14th Institute). The KLJ-3 radar, which might be based on early variant AN/APG-66/68 technology, is said to have a maximum detecting range of 100~130km (attacking range 80~90km), and is capable of engaging two targets simultaneously. The radar system was tested on a Y-7 aerial radar testbed before being fitted on the J-10.

Russian company Phazotron is prompting its Zhuk-10PD, a version of the system in later Su-27s, with 160km search range and ability to track up to six targets. Israel has also offered its Elta EL/M-2035 radar for competition.

For low-level navigation and precision strike, a forward-looking infrared and laser designation pod is likely to be carried F-16-style on an inlet stores station. A Chinese designed pod similar to the Israeli Rafael Litening was revealed at the 1998 Zhuhai air show.

POWERPLANT

The initial low-rate production J-10s are powered by the 27,500lb-thrust (120kN) Russian Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan rated at 17,857 lb (79.43 kN) dry and 27,557 lb st (122.58 kN) with afterburning. The same powerplant is also being used by Chinese air force's Su-27s and Su-30s. Lyulka-Saturn reportedly delivered 54 AL-31F turbofan engines to China between 2002 and 2004. These are the AL-31FN model with special modifications to be fitted in the J-10.

China is also developing its own WS-10A turbofan powerplant, and it could be fitted on the later versions of the J-10. An all-aspect vectored-thrust version of the AL-31F was revealed for the first time at Zhuhai Air Show 1998, leading to speculation that this advanced engine may wind up on the J-10, potentially conferring phenomenal manoeuvrability.

WEAPONS

The fixed weapon on the J-10 is a 23mm internal cannon. The aircraft also has 11 stores stations - six under the wing and five under the fuselage. The inner wing and centre fuselage stations are plumped to carry external fuel tanks. Fixed weapon is a 23-mm inner cannon hidden inside fuselage.

In addition to the PL-8 short-range infrared-guided air-to-air missile reportedly derived from Israeli Rafael Python-3 technology, the J-10 could also carry Russian Vympel R-73 (AA-11) short-range and R-77 (AA-12) medium-range missiles equipped by Chinese Flankers. It may also be fitted with indigenously developed PL-11 or PL-12 medium-range AAM for BVR combat.

For ground attack missions, the J-10 will carry laser-guided bombs, YJ-8K anti-ship missile, as well as various unguided bombs and rockets. Some missiles currently under development such as the YJ-9 ramjet-powered anti-radiation missile may also be carried by the J-10.

SPECIFICATIONS

Crew: 1 (basic variant); 2 (fighter-trainer variant)
Dimensions: N/A
Weight: N/A
Max Speed: Mach 1.2 (sea-level) or Mach 2.0 (high altitude)
Range: Combat radius over 550km
Service Ceiling: N/A
Max Climb Rate: N/A
G Limit: N/A
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10.asp

wow there pretty evenly matched! We now the Mirage for its safetly, easy handling and easy mantence. J-10 is probabily requires higher mantaince being that it has cranked delta wings and huge intakes like the Mig-29s and Su-27s. Close combat looks to be in favour of the J-10 seeing that it has the Archer. The mirage has the Matra though. very capable missile. I believe that both have liting pods while the other has some duplicate copy? As for strike role i think the Mirage wins hands down. It was very effective in high altitudes and proven.:coffee
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
dabrownguy said:
Damn it when is it gonna be offical!!!!!!.........
Btw i really doubt comparing the Su-27 to J-10 is fair. They are completly different!
But comparing the the J-10 to Mirage 2000 is good comparision.
It should be made available as soon as the export versions are available. According to "sinodefence" J-10 export version will be available by the end of 2005/6.

Comparing J-10 with Su-27 is quite fair enough. J-10 was built in competition to Soviat MiG-29s. MiG-29 were considered by Chinese as the only threatening AC as at some time in the past Chinese-Russian relations had gone a bit rusty + the Indians were buying MiG-29. Th idea was to make an AC that can take on MiG-29 but than later China & Russia armed relations got better & China started to buy Russian ACs again. When Chinese got the Su-27 which is similar to MiG-29 or a bit better Chinese decided to upgrade the J-10 program to much better aircrafts. Hence Chinese turned their focus from MiG-29 counter to Su-27 competition. This time they did this to make some thing better. This delayed the program a bit + J-10 proto type No.2 crashed killing the pilot. This delayed it bit further as J-10 again went into modifications. It was actualy suppose to completed by 2003.

China has extensively tested J-10 against Su-27 & when finaly Chinese J-10, after various modifications, defeated J-10 it was made public.

Not only Chinese claim but also experts from other country who have a bit of a knowledge of J-10 program say that the final version of J-10 would be better or superior to Russian Su-27 & MiG-29, French Mirage2000 (mirage2000-5/9/N upgrades have not been compared), Sweden's JAS-39 Gripen, USA's F-16s, F-18. Final version is actualy suppose to be capable of taking on F-15Es.
But the only problem China had was of better avionics technology which will now be available to China as EU has lifted the arms embargo.

J-10 is not as bad as you realy think. But I'll believe the experts when I see
J-10 perform.

Good or bad, I see Pakistan buying it. If its realy good we may even opt for ToT & modify the J-10 to F-10 & input our favored equipment & avionics like we are suppose to do with FC-1/JF-17. PAF might resist current J-10 as they r using AL-31FN TurboFan engine from RUSSIA. J-10 will be highly favored in Pakistan once it comes integrated with WS-10A engine which Chinese made.
Who knows, like F-86 SABRES (retired 1980s from PAF) & F-16s may be one day J-10 (F-10, if start making them) too would capture the emgination of Pakistani people.
 
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P.A.F

New Member
we souldn't be so confident in comparing the J-10 to any aircraft we like. you can only do that when it proves itself.
 

highsea

New Member
I expect the J-10 to be a very good AC. I just think it's unfair to compare it to a heavy fighter like the SU-27 or F-15. How it stacks up to other light/medium fighters like F-16 and Gripen is yet to be determined- that will depend mostly on avionics and weapons. ECM notwithstanding, a MiG-21 with modern SRAAM and HMCS could be considered a match for a Raptor close in (well, almost ;) ).

I am more sceptical about claims of supercruise, especially with a warload. This seems unlikely considering the numbers...
 

doggychow14

New Member
But the only problem China had was of better avionics technology which will now be available to China as EU has lifted the arms embargo.
EU hasn't lifted the arms embargo yet. The prediction is by June if the EU if the EU manages not to give in to US pressure. Final version is actualy suppose to be capable of taking on F-15Es. The j-10's were are meant to go up against Taiwan's f-16s. F-15's are out of the j-10's league. Does any1 know how the progession of the ws-10 on the J-10? Or how much a TVN on a ws-10 will increase its combat effectiveness? Also does any1 know if the sd10/pl-12 entered service yet?
 

adsH

New Member
ultrafang said:
Cockpit include 3 large MFDs designed in a westernized style.
according to AFM PAF helped Design the Avionics system utilizing the Mass Resources of the Chinese Aviation industry. !!! thats where the Western input came form !!!!
 

dabrownguy

New Member
SABRE said:
It should be made available as soon as the export versions are available. According to "sinodefence" J-10 export version will be available by the end of 2005/6.

Comparing J-10 with Su-27 is quite fair enough. J-10 was built in competition to Soviat MiG-29s. MiG-29 were considered by Chinese as the only threatening AC as at some time in the past Chinese-Russian relations had gone a bit rusty + the Indians were buying MiG-29. Th idea was to make an AC that can take on MiG-29 but than later China & Russia armed relations got better & China started to buy Russian ACs again. When Chinese got the Su-27 which is similar to MiG-29 or a bit better Chinese decided to upgrade the J-10 program to much better aircrafts. Hence Chinese turned their focus from MiG-29 counter to Su-27 competition. This time they did this to make some thing better. This delayed the program a bit + J-10 proto type No.2 crashed killing the pilot. This delayed it bit further as J-10 again went into modifications. It was actualy suppose to completed by 2003.

China has extensively tested J-10 against Su-27 & when finaly Chinese J-10, after various modifications, defeated J-10 it was made public.

Not only Chinese claim but also experts from other country who have a bit of a knowledge of J-10 program say that the final version of J-10 would be better or superior to Russian Su-27 & MiG-29, French Mirage2000 (mirage2000-5/9/N upgrades have not been compared), Sweden's JAS-39 Gripen, USA's F-16s, F-18. Final version is actualy suppose to be capable of taking on F-15Es.
But the only problem China had was of better avionics technology which will now be available to China as EU has lifted the arms embargo.

J-10 is not as bad as you realy think. But I'll believe the experts when I see
J-10 perform.

Good or bad, I see Pakistan buying it. If its realy good we may even opt for ToT & modify the J-10 to F-10 & input our favored equipment & avionics like we are suppose to do with FC-1/JF-17. PAF might resist current J-10 as they r using AL-31FN TurboFan engine from RUSSIA. J-10 will be highly favored in Pakistan once it comes integrated with WS-10A engine which Chinese made.
Who knows, like F-86 SABRES (retired 1980s from PAF) & F-16s may be one day J-10 (F-10, if start making them) too would capture the emgination of Pakistani people.
i disagree. the j-10 facts were probabily fruitified. Flankers stand next to best aircraft in the world meant for air domanince!:mad: Do you see a J-10 doing a hook? no.
 

fieldmarshal

New Member
J-10 is yet to be acknowleged by the chinese offically, to them it does not exists so as a result their are no confirmed stats of j-10 that could shed a light on its performance envelop. So to say that its better than this or that ac is premature. But one thing is for sure that china is lookin to counter the taiwanese more than india as it considers taiwan a bigger and immidate threat. So j-10 has to be in the league of f-16 block 52 mirage 2000 5/9 n the f-18( to counter the us fleet) as it will be the main stay of the chinese for some time. N if aint as good or better than the ac mentioned above than their was no point in waistin this much time, energy n money. So u can bet ur bottom dollar that the j-10 willbe good.

The flanker series of ac are all hype in terms of a complete package ie ac, avionics, pilot training and supportin equipment, as whenever they will come against western ac like f-16 desert falcon/ sufa or even f-16 block 15 with mlu they will be be out classed. The russians know it but cant to any thing as they lack the funding to do any thing about. In an other couple of years when the like of typhoon n f-22 become the main stay of most western airforces, flanker/super flanker will be obsalete as these western ac will runs circles around the flankers.

I have always though of the flanker as a circus act, which with its cobra manouver looks good, but since its insecption has nothin to show for in combat.
 

dabrownguy

New Member
Typhoon has a 5-1 kill ratio aganist super flankers. according to some tests if i remember accuratly. while the raptor had 10-1. That isn't bad compared to what a flanker cost and can do. But really do you really think it'll be hard for Russians to catch up? With less sanctions aganist the Russians they can "barrow" technology lets say from france and make something that can be on par with probabily the Typhoon. BTW the flanker if i remember can do a cobra maneuver loaded. its not all show.
 

adsH

New Member
dabrownguy said:
Typhoon has a 5-1 kill ratio aganist super flankers. according to some tests if i remember accuratly. while the raptor had 10-1. That isn't bad compared to what a flanker cost and can do. But really do you really think it'll be hard for Russians to catch up? With less sanctions aganist the Russians they can "barrow" technology lets say from france and make something that can be on par with probabily the Typhoon. BTW the flanker if i remember can do a cobra maneuver loaded. its not all show.
Thats all good!! but really what matters is that who's actually flying the Dam AC. the Typhoon is potentially placed at that position becasue its operators along with the support it receives from its Auxiliaries are top notch. the Pilots that fly are really well trained the subsystems are kept upto date. And about the raptor wel... at that price i'd expect it to do some miracles. These are force multiplier, AC's the Russians are still somewhat backwards and they still have the Overwhelming strategy "Masses". Russians are still behind us in research they have to invest in developing there own infrastructure first. R&D comes as a luxury to them. Russia cannot compete with the totall Combined R&D resources of the western world which to an extent can be put as a "collaborating bunch"
 

fieldmarshal

New Member
dabrownguy said:
Typhoon has a 5-1 kill ratio aganist super flankers. according to some tests if i remember accuratly. while the raptor had 10-1. That isn't bad compared to what a flanker cost and can do. But really do you really think it'll be hard for Russians to catch up? With less sanctions aganist the Russians they can "barrow" technology lets say from france and make something that can be on par with probabily the Typhoon. BTW the flanker if i remember can do a cobra maneuver loaded. its not all show.
By ur account all the russian airforce will be dead n burried before they can get some meaning full kills.
At the moment typhoon is not fully developed by the time it is nothin that the russkies can throw at the opperaters of this ac will come close to touching it,let along stand a chance in a meaning full combat. N as far as the f-22 goes it even at this stage is way ahead of any thing the russian got even on the drawing board. N by the time they thing of somthin meaningfull to match the capabilities of these birds, by that time we will see american n european plans with thrust vectoing control, with such super super movouarability that will be somthing to be hold.etc
so my friend as things stand today russia is too far back in not just military tech but in every sphere of life n with the position thier eco is at the moment, they got just one way to go n that is down, as they already have morgageed their sole to world bank/imf. ;)
 

ajay_ijn

New Member
Russians are still behind us in research they have to invest in developing there own infrastructure first. R&D comes as a luxury to them. Russia cannot compete with the totall Combined R&D resources of the western world which to an extent can be put as a "collaborating bunch"
They are behind just becoz they don't have money.
Give them Money and They can Compete with US/Europe R&D or even overtake.
Things would be Much much different if Soviet Union didn't collapse.




highsea said:
MiG-21 with modern SRAAM and HMCS could be considered a match for a Raptor close in
That would be the most horrible thing USAF would ever imagine.
Costliest Fighter Vs the Cheapest/45 year old Fighter .
But Still it isn't a match.
 

adsH

New Member
ajay_ijn said:
They are behind just becoz they don't have money.
Give them Money and They can Compete with US/Europe R&D or even overtake.
Things would be Much much different if Soviet Union didn't collapse.
I dobt they would be able to compete even if they had Money Today as we stand our R&D sector along with the US is probably the most potent sectors of our economies. Do you have any IDea how it the R&D works we'r not dealing with One Defense sector R&d it is the tottal combined R7D sectors of the Most developed and Richest Economies of the world. Everything is merging so the defense sector borrows tech that they need from other Comercial R&D sectors. Russia on its own can NEVER catch up !!





That would be the most horrible thing USAF would ever imagine.
Costliest Fighter Vs the Cheapest/45 year old Fighter .
But Still it isn't a match.
Ever heard of High hacks,

Even tho the fact that the Mig would be lighting up on the Raptor Radar/sensor screen like a Glowing bee on a rainy night. The raptor would engage the AC well before the Mig even knew what was looking at it. the USAF if put in this situation would have the Entire Package in place including Jstar and E3's so any 45 year old jet on a Loner mission would be mice meat by the time it would have taken off its base.

 

ajay_ijn

New Member
Even tho the fact that the Mig would be lighting up on the Raptor Radar/sensor screen like a Glowing bee on a rainy night. The raptor would engage the AC well before the Mig even knew what was looking at it. the USAF if put in this situation would have the Entire Package in place including Jstar and E3's so any 45 year old jet on a Loner mission would be mice meat by the time it would have taken off its base.
Thats what I was saying,it was not me but high sea was saying that Mig-21 was match to F-22.

I dobt they would be able to compete even if they had Money Today as we stand our R&D sector along with the US is probably the most potent sectors of our economies. Do you have any IDea how it the R&D works we'r not dealing with One Defense sector R&d it is the tottal combined R7D sectors of the Most developed and Richest Economies of the world. Everything is merging so the defense sector borrows tech that they need from other Comercial R&D sectors. Russia on its own can NEVER catch up !!
Remeber Soviet Union Did gave the Real Shock To Whole Western World on 15 May 1957 by Spectacular Launch of the First ICBM/Space launch Vehicle R-7.
US Never Imagined that Soviets Could do that and also US was years away from doing that.

Russia on its own can NEVER catch up !!
Don't underestimate them,They can and also are capable of giving Surprise to the western world.


Do you have any IDea how it the R&D works we'r not dealing with One Defense sector R&d it is the tottal combined R7D sectors of the Most developed and Richest Economies of the world
So whats Special if they have richest economies.
Are their brains more capable than Russian Scientists.
I agree that Borrowing the Technology is an Advantage.
But Russia/Soviets Never had the nessicity of Borrowing the Tech from others becoz they themsleves have number of R&D Facilities.
They have some 1500 Research and Design Facilties.
They developed some of the best weapon systems without borrrowing the technology.

I agree Russian Defence Industry is down now,But underestimating them would be a Fatal Mistake,which often Western nations do.
 

adsH

New Member
Ajjay What i am trying to tell you is that, the Russians even if they wanted now would not be able to compete, since we have the infrastructure in place, we have Private Public and Academic research institution, I’m sure your probably aware of the Defense Budget of the Americans and there capabilities. But that’s not all we as the Smaller Western nations with rich economies have dispensable cash. And everything takes Money, the Russians cannot hire there R&D staff by feeding them a loaf of bread, barter system is long gone. The Russians need to live up to the Fact. Every penny they invest in defense R&D is a penny opportunity Cost away from there poverty stricken population. they need infrastructure and they need basic amenities to live. The larger part of the western world has the infrastructure in place, we have the system and the resources allocated for it so whatever we spend on R&D is for self improvement. The Russian were Building Weapons to prove there empire was the greatest they borrowed concepts from the Germans that by my count were the pioneers of most modern day trendy Weapon systems. Were not trying to prove to the world that we’re an empire that has capabilities far beyond anyone plus we have a stable flow resources and ideas. We’re trying to develop ourselves our technology and whatever we develop, if it helps the defense sector then so be it.
 

P.A.F

New Member
The bottom line here is that Russian tech can not compete with Americas. END OF STORY.

now can we please get back to the topic of J-10. russia and america have nothing to do with it!!!
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
By the time Russians come up with some thing like F/A-22, USAF & USNavy would already be operating on the un-manned (no pilot) stealth fighter AC being developed by Northorp Grummen & by than USA will be considering to export F-22 to its allied nations, which puts Russia in pressure. The question is can Russia creat some thing like F-22. They could but they need money & they r running out of it. India & China are the main source but with China involved in self reliance projects such as J-10 & J-XX, Russia only will have India as its main buyer, but at the moment it seems that USA is even trying to pull India away from Russian Airnotical technologies.
Not only Russia has problem in making newer advance fighters they have problems mainting their current inventory. According to some reports if Russia even succeeds in making PAF-FA, they wont be able afford much of them. This is a big trouble for the Russians.

Seems like Chinese are more pro-active than re-active, they r trying & pulling out of Russian AirArms market. If they dont start making their own jets, they might end up with nothing in the end if Russia goes down on World Class AirCraft manufacturing.
For Chinese FC-1 (Jf-17) & J-10 may be the first two steps but they r the biggest one as well.

Russia is loosing its prospects & they r doing nothing about it. Unlike USA they have still kept the doors shut to their cold war rivals.
 
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