Irans Tu-22 Backfire fleet
- Thread starter Big-E
- Start date
You know the tu-22 is the blinder not the backfire. Certain versions of the blinder can fire kitchen asm but no way capable like the backfire. I am sure they have at least one working. Russian parts are easy to get and its not like it impossible to get in the gray and black markets.
I dont think they have kitchen asms.
I dont think they have kitchen asms.
Black Legion
New Member
All I know is that in 1991 more than 350 advanced aircraft were bought from Russia or made operational including, Russian MiG-27s, -29s, -31s, TU-22M3 Backfires, Russian Su24s, -25s, -27s, IL-76 transports, and French Mirage F-1s. In this period close to $2 billion was spent on foreign weapons systems.
The latest rumor was that Iran had 7 Tu22 operational, also the purchase of Russia's MIG 31 is still unknown and not verified.
The latest rumor was that Iran had 7 Tu22 operational, also the purchase of Russia's MIG 31 is still unknown and not verified.
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I've also heard about these "aqustions". In fact Iran ordered 12 Tu-22m, or least the rumours says so, but no hard evidence of any deliveries have come up. But like i said, they where rumours, nothing more...
Black Legion
New Member
But the fact is Iran spend about $2 billion dollars on Russian planes, excatly what planes is 100% not known other then the MIG-27s, -29s, SU-24,-25s, and the IL76 transport planes. But the amount of those they bought comes way way short of $2 billion dollars, so the question is what they bought excatly?
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I don't think backfire was ever exported to Iran. Just look at the time it took for Russia to clear backfire export to China and India. Iran definitely does not have the export clearance level of China or India. This link also states that no exports of backfire have been made to Iran or China.
http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/tu-22m/tu-22m.htm
If Iran really has backfire, we would know, because the neocons would be all over it.
http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/tu-22m/tu-22m.htm
If Iran really has backfire, we would know, because the neocons would be all over it.
Black Legion
New Member
I have another question about this issue. Let's say these speculations are true and Iran has between 7 and 12 Tu-22s. Also considering what armaments these Iranian Tu-22s have, do these planes pose a serious threat to US forces in the region? And is it possible these plane could be deployed after the first strike by the USAF in a possible conflict, because we know the first strike would be concetrated on Iranian air force and AA capabilities?
And one specific question, if these Tu-22s were equiped with AS-20 Kayak anti-ship missiles or somehow modified to carry those new rocket torpedoes Iran demonstrated, if they would to be deployed and fly low profile, could they seriously damage the US carrier group in the Persian gulf?
And one specific question, if these Tu-22s were equiped with AS-20 Kayak anti-ship missiles or somehow modified to carry those new rocket torpedoes Iran demonstrated, if they would to be deployed and fly low profile, could they seriously damage the US carrier group in the Persian gulf?
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contedicavour
New Member
Real threats to USN
Yes, right, Shipwreck SS-N-19s and torpedoes.
I would add the real threat there is asymmetrical warfare, first of all mines. The USN is curiously underequipped when it comes to mine counter-measures. Most large European navies have more modern MCM ships than the USN (which even keeps its own in naval reserve, if I recall correctly). I remember that a USN LPH (of the old Iwo Jima class) was badly damaged by a mine in the first Gulf war in '91.
After mines, the other real risk is a repetition of what happened in Yemen against a USN Burke-class destroyer : small fast boats loaded with high explosives hitting the side of the ship and making a big hole in it. In the midst of the hectic naval traffic in the Gulf noticing small fast boats that hardly are noticeable on radars isn't easy.
To go back to the TU-22Ms, the best tactic would be to follow a civilian airliner flying above the Persian Gulf and to launch while still being hidden beneath it. After the USN cruiser Vincennes shot down an Iranian civilian airliner by mistake in the '90s, the Navy will definitively hesitate before shooting an SM-2 missile to a target 100km away. That's enough range for a ASM shot.
Let's hope the USN is preparing for these scenarios and that anyway it won't come down to this...
cheers
Yes, right, Shipwreck SS-N-19s and torpedoes.
I would add the real threat there is asymmetrical warfare, first of all mines. The USN is curiously underequipped when it comes to mine counter-measures. Most large European navies have more modern MCM ships than the USN (which even keeps its own in naval reserve, if I recall correctly). I remember that a USN LPH (of the old Iwo Jima class) was badly damaged by a mine in the first Gulf war in '91.
After mines, the other real risk is a repetition of what happened in Yemen against a USN Burke-class destroyer : small fast boats loaded with high explosives hitting the side of the ship and making a big hole in it. In the midst of the hectic naval traffic in the Gulf noticing small fast boats that hardly are noticeable on radars isn't easy.
To go back to the TU-22Ms, the best tactic would be to follow a civilian airliner flying above the Persian Gulf and to launch while still being hidden beneath it. After the USN cruiser Vincennes shot down an Iranian civilian airliner by mistake in the '90s, the Navy will definitively hesitate before shooting an SM-2 missile to a target 100km away. That's enough range for a ASM shot.
Let's hope the USN is preparing for these scenarios and that anyway it won't come down to this...
cheers
Pursuit Curve
New Member
contedicavour said:
Just a correction, the Vincennes incident was in the Eighties. As far as the TU-22M, its strength is in stand off missile attack, that being said it would have to launch outside of the outer engagement zone of a USN Carrier battle groups missile defense and not be detected by the ever present CAP.
If the combat zone is the Persian Gulf, the TU 22M could prosecute its attack from within Iranian Airspace. That is if their operational bases have not been neutralised.
The TU 22M is in my opinion overated as a strike platform, I remember that it was given strategic strike status by a budget driven pentagon and only the TU 95 and the Blackjack fit into the strategic platform category. The TU 22M is a threat to Israel and other countries in the Gulf Region, again in a perfect situation with proper crews, tactics and weapons it could inflict damage, but I believe that it would be a one time strike, because the overwhelming counterstrike would see the end of any TU 22M equipped base. The other TU, the Blinder, was used by the Iraqi Air Force in its war against Iran, and did not achieve much, and that was with support and trainig by the Soviets.
Since the Vinciennces incident there have been great strides made with the AEGIS radar systems and also cruise missile defences, RAM and inproved Standard missile systems and control.
It is a pity that theer aren't anymore F 14 tomcats left in service (USN), it would be a classic encounter, AIM 54's versus Soviet era anti ship missiles!
contedicavour
New Member
That would be quite a scenario for Clancy-type booksPursuit Curve said:
I agree the Backfire was created to attack US carrier groups in the North Atlantic several hundred miles away from their targets. The Persian Gulf is almost a lake in comparison
However, could a Backfire hide below a big Boeing or Airbus on a commercial flight path and all of a sudden launch from its hiding ? a Mach 4 missile arriving on a carrier from 100 miles for example would still be quite a nasty suprise, despite all the RAM, ESSM and Phalanx systems. The Persian Gulf is so small and so filled up with oilers, merchant ships, planes of all sizes, that it could be a real temptation cheers
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #14
Even if they did have Kitchen ASMs they would have to launch them over water for a stand-off attack. If they launched them anywhere more than 5-10 miles from the coast they would hit the mountains that elavate from 3k-7k ft. Once they got that close to the water they would be toast.Pursuit Curve said:
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #15
Just the fact that it is so full of such ships means a Kitchen ASM attack woud hit those other targets before the carrier if they were in b/w it and the CBG.contedicavour said:The Persian Gulf is so small and so filled up with oilers, merchant ships, planes of all sizes, that it could be a real temptation
cheers
contedicavour
New Member
Ah-ha good point.Big-E said:
Then I guess the threat would come more from the Kilos, mines and terrorist attacks such as that on the USN destroyer in Yemen.
Unless SU-24 and other attack jets bought from Russia or ex-Iraqi could pose a threat flying very low altitude ?
cheers
Pursuit Curve
New Member
So that would only leave a direct suicidal conventional attack with iron bombs. You are right of course, the Kitchen Missile profile is designed for over water useage, unless of course the iranians have modified the Harpoons they had in the eighties and designed a whole new gneeration of anti ship cruise missiles, in which case they would not need a backfire to launch, just use the shore based, but vulnerable batteries.Big-E said:
Does Iran have a few TU 22M backfires kicking about, or did they inherit a few obsolete TU 22 Blinders?
Black Legion
New Member
One other question, could those Iranian XM-55 cruise missiles they bought from Ukraine be used against US carrier gruop in the gulf, I think the Iranians have 15 of those missiles which are quite good.....
And one more question - even if Iran had only those obsolete Tu-22 Blinders, if they are modified to carry those new rocket torpedoes that have quite a big range, if they fly low profile and fire a dozen of their torpedoes like 10km away couldn't they seriously damage the carrier group?
And one more question - even if Iran had only those obsolete Tu-22 Blinders, if they are modified to carry those new rocket torpedoes that have quite a big range, if they fly low profile and fire a dozen of their torpedoes like 10km away couldn't they seriously damage the carrier group?
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Pursuit Curve
New Member
This is a threat of course only if the Iranians get the first shots in, the retaliation (Conventional) would be overwhelming. I am no naval warfare expert, but the Persian gulf still seems to be a large area with some choke points, also, I think that alot of US airpower would be land based with the organic SAM defense and other counter measures. 15 cruise missiles, which isn't a big stockpile to go to war with, would not be a desicive system. Is the XM-55 configured for Blue Ocean engagements or litoral areas? Can it navigate tight areas and also can it be launched from overland and transition to sea modes easily? And would a USN Carrier Battle Group obligilligly sail with range of SSM Missile batteries?Black Legion said:
I don't think so........
In addition to the high-profile weapons mentioned so far, Iran has dozens of small missile boats that carry Yang-Ji C-802 missiles. They also have other Chinese missiles, and probably still some French ones. Who knows what else they've bought covertly over the years.
I wouldn't underestimate these missiles if what Globalsecurity says is true:
The weight of the subsonic (0.9 Mach) Yingji-802 is reduced from 815 kilograms to 715 kilograms, but its range is increased from 42 kilometers to 120 kilometers. The 165 kg. (363 lb.) warhead is just as powerful as the earlier version. Since the missile has a small radar reflectivity and is only about five to seven meters above the sea surface when it attacks the target, and since its guidance equipment has strong anti-jamming capability, target ships have a very low success rate in intercepting the missile. The hit probability of the Yingji-802 is estimated to be as high as 98 percent. The Yingji-802 can be launched from airplanes, ships, submarines and land-based vehicles, and is considered along with the US "Harpoon" as among the best anti-ship missiles of the present-day world.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/c-802.htm
I wouldn't underestimate these missiles if what Globalsecurity says is true:
The weight of the subsonic (0.9 Mach) Yingji-802 is reduced from 815 kilograms to 715 kilograms, but its range is increased from 42 kilometers to 120 kilometers. The 165 kg. (363 lb.) warhead is just as powerful as the earlier version. Since the missile has a small radar reflectivity and is only about five to seven meters above the sea surface when it attacks the target, and since its guidance equipment has strong anti-jamming capability, target ships have a very low success rate in intercepting the missile. The hit probability of the Yingji-802 is estimated to be as high as 98 percent. The Yingji-802 can be launched from airplanes, ships, submarines and land-based vehicles, and is considered along with the US "Harpoon" as among the best anti-ship missiles of the present-day world.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/c-802.htm