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Indonesian Aero News

This is a discussion on Indonesian Aero News within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; I just read about the recent decission to purchase the Tucano in the new AFM (hence my reason for visiting ...


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Old February 27th, 2010   #61
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I just read about the recent decission to purchase the Tucano in the new AFM (hence my reason for visiting this topic) and I thought that the Tucano at least is a nice replacement for the OV-10.

On the F-16 Tucano debate I want to add some comments:

1: Yes purchasing and operating a sqn of F-16 is significantly more expensive than operating Tucano's. Think about maintenance, spares, additional airbase infrastructure and I think (although I'm not an expert) that training an F-16 pilot is markebly more expensive than a Tucano pilot.

2: The way you can deploy a Tucano is very different than is an F-16. As mentioned above, tucano's can land on much more airfields then F-16's can, Since Indonesia is a pretty big country that is a big plus and the support footprint must be much smaller and therefore much easyer to take with you on detachments.

3: Ofcoarse the Tucano does not have the combat potential the F-16 has, but it's not useless. It carries bombs, rockets and advanced sensors (if they buy those ofcoarse). And it performs better at lower speeds which means that it's better for recon and patrol. Also the Tucano is not a COIN aircraft per se, It's also a trainer aircraft. Couldn't it be used as such by Indonesia?

4: The Dutch MLU's are by no means up to par to the Aussies superbugs or much of the other hardware country's in the region are purchasing (Su-30MKM etc.). Also why would you go buying 20yr old crap when the main supplier of parts and weaponry (i.e. the US) is a spotty one at best. The US doesnt have a good repore with Indonesia when it comes to defense support, just look at all the country's that avoid the US as a supplier because they have had bad experiences with embargo's. The Russians (or the French or Chinese for that matter) have much less regard for such things, maybe that's morally wrong but a nice thing nonetheless if you have an embargo on your ass.

5.1: A point was made of the TNI AU's diverse inventory, which is a totally valid and very relevant point. Not only is it cheaper to operate a less diverse fleet, it would also present oppertunities for local industries for more stable income (i.e. less diverse but more profitable contracts?) and more barter room voor both TOT and the right(?) to have more input in the systems of a particular platform.
Arms purchases are also an important way of asserting a country's political conontation. So to me the question is not what toy do I want but who are my friends and how am I goin to show that? I dont know the political situation of Indonesia very well, but for the sake of arguments, lets assume that dealing with the US could be a costly mistake (because one transgression internally and there's another embargo), then it is logical that the TNI AU has a great platform to expand on and thats the Su-30. If the airforce has to buy jets instead why not go that way, the SU has a much greater range (and thats what I would want if I had to defend a large area with limited assets) a much large payload and two engines. With Indonesia being an island nation the security of a twin engined platform sounds reassuring to me.
I also think you could replace all the F-16, and Hawks with Su-30 and Tucano's and dont even bother with the Yak-130's. It would also seem (to me at least) that you have commonality with a lot of country's in the region, and those would then become potential cusomers(?).

5.2: Then again if you go the other way (the US way), I still wouldn't go for second hand raggety-ass F-16's (that we the Dutch think wont last past 2018 or so). But with maybe the Hornet, it would give you commonality with the Aussie's which would be your friend if the US is, and also has two engines plus maintenance is going to be cheaper on the long run seeing the USN is still ordering superbugs, and the us is not buying any more F-16's (I think), so other than the UAE and maaaaaaaybe India no one is going to require significant spare parts let alone do some development on it. What would make more sense to me (in this scenario) is to go european. There are some nice options there, first of all the rafale/typhoon, I know very expensive and probably not feasible but with some goodwill and the decomissioning of F-16's and Hawks and not purchasing Yak's it wouls seem a posibility at least. A remote one though but the hawks where purchased from the UK, so why not some typhoons, and I believe the UK also uses Tucano's so thats another strong link to be used for support (maybe TOT?). More realisting would be old mirage 2000's with some nice mileage left, if things go alright there are some pretty nice UAE ones comming on the market. And there are bound to be some nice ones left in the old French cold war stocks.
Buying more old F-16's just doesn't seem logical to me, wouldn't it be nice to have a consolidated fleet of shiny mirages with sexy sensors?

anyway grtz Toprob (yeah made a typo with my nickname)

(Edit)
point 5.2: Another thing could be that the Chinese start causing trouble. I dont believe there are territorial disputes with Indonesia, but as we say in Holland "wat niet is kan nog komen" (meaning you never know). It seems unlikely to me, but if China doesnt like you (and I dont know if that's the case) anything could happen... Just look at the problems the ROC had with its procurements.

Segway or maybe point 5.3: Could they buy Chinese or Pakistani those JF-17's seem nice, and you could operate a lot with limited resources.

And I have a question for the experts: I read somewhere, I think in a Thai AF thread, that their diverse inventory was because purchase with a new supplier secured bigger bribes to the bureaucrat who orders. And that corruption was one of the reasons they had an overly diverse airforce that was very expensive to maintain.
Is this a problem in Indonesia too?

Last edited by Toptob; February 27th, 2010 at 11:05 PM.
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Old February 27th, 2010   #62
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@Toptob, just a quick note, Ananda is not posting in his native language, so while it may appear that he is shouting, IMHO that is not his intention. He thinks in another language and he translates it into English. The other forum members interacting with him in this thread know that.

Both China and US are courting Indonesia due to their location and political weight in ASEAN. Things have really changed in Indonesia and the outstanding dispute the Indonesians have is with Malaysia and both governments are trying to manage the issue.

Last edited by OPSSG; February 28th, 2010 at 12:52 AM.
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Old February 28th, 2010   #63
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@Toptob, just a quick note, Ananda is not posting in his native language, so while it may appear that he is shouting, IMHO that is not his intention. He thinks in another language and he translates it into English. The other forum members interacting with him in this thread know that.
OPSSG. thanks for your clarifications on my behalf. Like I said before on my posts, my objections on Super Tucano's deal more to the problem of limited budgets that TNI AU has, and not on the capabilities of Super Tucano.
As my post # 47 said, from sources in the defence ministry and what i heard already comunicated to the ministry of finance..the way the Air Force wants to spend their budgets was not you can call efficiency based. They still want to have Fankers, F 16, Hawk 200/100, Super Tucano, and on top of that the training sq will be made of Yak, and KT 1. Too many types of aircraft with limited numbers each..which will translate to logistical nightmare and very costly onmaintanance.

If they want to have COIN then they should bought more than a sq and let go their ambitions for fast jets...howeverthey still adamant for F 16 (wheather it's MLU or Blok 52) and Flankers to maintain Technological parity in the neighbourhood.
If that's what they want..and with the limited budgets they have,,then they should let go supertucano. That's why i comne up with possibility of using the budget of super tucano for second hand F 16. Off course it's not optimum, but better than maintaining fast jets and super tucano with limited budgets.
I'm just a liitle bit frustrated. For the last couple of years, the defence ministry show common sense in dealing with military procurements. This super tucano deal, certaintly not moving in that directions.

@toptob..you made valid arguments, however i'm affraid that's more made sense for richer air forces. If it's up to me..then TNI AU should choose either having Flankers or F 16 and not both of them..and forget super tucano and yak's..and relly training only with KT 1...Or if they on having super tucano..and forget the fast jets altogther for time being..except perhaps the Hawk 200 that already in the inventory..( i don't like hawk 200, but TNI AU already have relative significant number of them..so it's more economical to keep). Not worth to have couple or three types of fast jets with only limited numbers. Realistically with the amount of TNI AU budgets..they should only have two or three at most type of fighters and trainers.
They should only have Flankers (or F 16 but not both of them), Hawk 200/100 and KT 1..This way, their budget can support effective oprational capabilities...and not like now..they are strugling to provide enough spare parts..since too many sources they have to stores...and with only limited spare parts for each type that they can bought..it's also reduces their capacity for effective oprational readiness..

Last edited by Ananda; February 28th, 2010 at 05:22 AM.
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Old February 28th, 2010   #64
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Hmm.. I totally overlooked the KT-1. Can you not strap some bombs to those? Maybe upgrading and extending that fleet is a better idea, I think that would also bring more work to local industries.

@Ananda:
You're absolutely right about the diversity of types, its outrageous to be operating so much different aircraft. Could the TNI AU not drop both the F-16 (or flanker) and the hawk/Yak130 and do training on flankers in... I dont know India? I mean if you're going to be flying a limited fleet of fast jets would it not be cheaper to outsource you training to share in the expertise and investment another user already has in place?

I also agree that the TNI AU wants to play to many roles, but it doesnt surprise me. We are in a recession and services around the world are scrambling to prove their necessity to their respective nations.
Then again it baffled me that they have an AC in inventory that does (with some investment) roughly the same thing as a new aircraft type they already operate. Thats something countries like the US and China do, but even they standardise.
So to me its not "do we need a COIN platform" because thats always better to have then not to. No what I'm asking myself is "couldn't the KT-1 platform be modified to fulfill this role" , maybe with local industries and build up that fleet.
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Old February 28th, 2010   #65
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Hmm.. I totally overlooked the KT-1. Can you not strap some bombs to those? Maybe upgrading and extending that fleet is a better idea, I think that would also bring more work to local industries.

@Ananda:
You're absolutely right about the diversity of types, its outrageous to be operating so much different aircraft. Could the TNI AU not drop both the F-16 (or flanker) and the hawk/Yak130 and do training on flankers in... I dont know India? I mean if you're going to be flying a limited fleet of fast jets would it not be cheaper to outsource you training to share in the expertise and investment another user already has in place?

I also agree that the TNI AU wants to play to many roles, but it doesnt surprise me. We are in a recession and services around the world are scrambling to prove their necessity to their respective nations.
Then again it baffled me that they have an AC in inventory that does (with some investment) roughly the same thing as a new aircraft type they already operate. Thats something countries like the US and China do, but even they standardise.
So to me its not "do we need a COIN platform" because thats always better to have then not to. No what I'm asking myself is "couldn't the KT-1 platform be modified to fulfill this role" , maybe with local industries and build up that fleet.
If i'm not mistaken the concept of outsourcing the training facilities has been put by South Korean. This mimic what the Canadian do with providing facilities for outsourcing traning in Canada for NATO countries.
Whether this approach can be sold in this region..need to be seen further.

Super Tucano main rival in the selection period actually the KT-1C the armed derivatives of KT-1. Why super tucano won..well the TNI AU only put that Super Tucano has more point on the job that TNI AU wants (so more to technical considerations)..
In the mean time South Korean actually already offered DI to further developed KT-1...Thus whether this ToT potentials with South Korean has been calculated or not..I Don't know. One thing that been's heard until now, Embraer has not offer any ToT or join development with DI if SUperTucano being chooses..

In the same time the Defense Ministry already show strong support for ToT for any new acquisition..so Why Super Tucano now the front Runner...nobody nows for sure...This's Indonesia afterall
On the outside..the defense ministry already show interest for efficiency on the Military procurement so it can provide better operational readiness...
However this Super Tucano deal was not in that direction..since it means that TNI AU still support too many types of aircraft..I just hope that somewhere in the current admnistrations still show more common sense...
We certaintly can not hope for that from our JOKE quality of Parlements.

Last edited by Ananda; February 28th, 2010 at 10:11 PM.
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Old March 1st, 2010   #66
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In the same time the Defense Ministry already show strong support for ToT for any new acquisition..so Why Super Tucano now the front Runner...nobody nows for sure...This's Indonesia afterall
I don't know but could it be corruption? As I asked before:

Quote:
And I have a question for the experts: I read somewhere, I think in a Thai AF thread, that their diverse inventory was because purchase with a new supplier secured bigger bribes to the bureaucrat who orders. And that corruption was one of the reasons they had an overly diverse airforce that was very expensive to maintain.
Is this a problem in Indonesia too?
Anyway from what Ananda said I take that the ROK can be a very important ally if you swing the way of the west. In that case maybe you could build a high low mix of F-16 and T-50's instead of Sukhoi and Yak's. I dont really know about procurement costs, but russian material is known to have high maintenance costs.

Also could the TNI AU not make do with just T-50 (or F-CK-1 but going taiwanese is problematic) and scrap the rest of the fleet except KT-1 and develop a credible AG and AA capability for T-50. Seems so much cheaper to me, and it keeps in place some sort of training infrastructure.

Again I'm of the opinion that arms procurement is a big way of showing who your friends are. So how I see it, Indonesia can make a choice between West (global north) and East (global south). But it seems they make no choice at all, which seems costly and ineffective.
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Old March 1st, 2010   #67
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Old March 1st, 2010   #68
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I don't know but could it be corruption? As I asked before:
Ooo..I'm not going to say that now the Indonesia beurocracy already corruption free..but the current situations will made doing that much more difficult. I can only say that the EFFICIENCY path still not in their perceptions. THey're still thinking 'compermentalize' ways. I'm just hoping the brass in the defence ministry can seen more 'broad perceptions' then the brass in the individual armed establishment.

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Anyway from what Ananda said I take that the ROK can be a very important ally if you swing the way of the west. In that case maybe you could build a high low mix of F-16 and T-50's instead of Sukhoi and Yak's. I dont really know about procurement costs, but russian material is known to have high maintenance costs.

Also could the TNI AU not make do with just T-50 (or F-CK-1 but going taiwanese is problematic) and scrap the rest of the fleet except KT-1 and develop a credible AG and AA capability for T-50. Seems so much cheaper to me, and it keeps in place some sort of training infrastructure
.

Well if you take a look back on my earlier posts in this forum, I have open a thread on the possible join cooperations between Indonesia and South Korea on developing new light fighters. From what i can gather, the Fighters supposed to be derivatives of T-50.
This new light fighters supposed to be rolling by 2015-2016 and starting to enter productions phase by 2018. At that time it's suggested this would replaced the Hawk 200/100, and F 16.

However now there's a much concern that the time frame will not be ready for the replacement of F 5 and Hawk Mk 53. That's why there's mulling on the possible Yak 130 to be used as replacements for those two.
It's also why there's some speculations for second hand F 16 as a stop gap until the planned fighthers with South Korea can be ready.

How serious is the planned with South Korea..?? well politically the MoU was signed between the two president in which both of them still holding the presidency in both countries. Thus it's quite serious..However how the implementations..that's the informations which still scetchy.

Cooperations with South Korea on the paper should be quite substantials:
1. LPD (already on hand)
2. Submarines (possible..still on the discussion. however south korea show strongest inclinations on helping PAL to build it's own submarines manufacturing facilities).
3. Whelled APC (The current APC developed by Pindad already use some of south korean components, to add the components from french and local components),
4. Light canon armoured vehicles (on preparations),
5. Amphibious armoured vehicles (still on discussion).
6. Light Fighters ( already on MoU and in the operational discussion).

We'll see latter on whether this will be developed on production basis. Since now only LPD and APC already in productions.

So as you can see the planned was quite good..and all border on efficientcy on sourcing, ToT and best on value of money..
That's why again..the super tucano..was not in reality in line with this efficiency pitcures.

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Old March 20th, 2010   #69
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Taken at Husein Sastranegara earlier this month...
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Old March 29th, 2010   #70
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Further Development on Planned Joint South Korea-Indonesia Fighters

From Java Post with Google Translation:

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PT DI condition continues to improve. In the near future they will produce the fighter with government funds with urunan South Korea (Korea) amounted to USD 8 billion. Indonesia contributed USD 2 billion, while the South Korean government's USD 6 billion.
The planned aircraft capability was not far different from the F-16 Falcon. Production details was 250 aircraft, with 200 units for South Korea and 50 to Indonesia. This project will take 7 yeras for completion.
This's part of interview from a DI executive on DI conditions. In this interview it's planned for DI to build 50 of the pllaned Joint Fighters with South Korea.
So far this is the only source in media here which stated the amount of Investment needed, and the planned distribution work. It's not clear whether this mean Indonesia will only take 50 aircraft or 50 Aircraft will be build by DI while the rest 200 by KAI.

With USD 8 billion this means this aircraft is not build from scratch. Thus in my oppinions was further confirmation the aircraft will be based from existingdesign ( T 50).
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Old April 3rd, 2010   #71
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From Java Post with Google Translation:



This's part of interview from a DI executive on DI conditions. In this interview it's planned for DI to build 50 of the pllaned Joint Fighters with South Korea.
So far this is the only source in media here which stated the amount of Investment needed, and the planned distribution work. It's not clear whether this mean Indonesia will only take 50 aircraft or 50 Aircraft will be build by DI while the rest 200 by KAI.

With USD 8 billion this means this aircraft is not build from scratch. Thus in my oppinions was further confirmation the aircraft will be based from existingdesign ( T 50).
Hopefully our government will be able to collect $2M, the acquisition of the 2 Project 636 subs is pushed backwards to 2011 because of budgetary reasons.
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Old April 5th, 2010   #72
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Does anyone have photos of Indonesia`s Su-30s?
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Old April 8th, 2010   #73
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Does anyone have photos of Indonesia`s Su-30s?
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Old April 25th, 2010   #74
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Another Developlment on Super Tucano deals.

From FlightGlobal : Indonesia aims to order eight Super Tucanos

From the Article, it's stated the Air Force wants to put an order of 8 Super Tucano ASAP, however they still need the approval from defense ministry.

Meanwhile the Air Force chief still addamant the order will be 16 since the budget already exist, and only need approval of the ministry. This seemengly tug of war between the ministry and the Air Force on the Super Tucano indicated relative strong apprehensions from the ministry on using another aircraft.

Stronger defense relations with South Korea seems show that KT-1 derivatives (KO-1) perhaps not out ofthe game yet. Another sources in here also stated some indications that the Ministry still wants one type of Aircraft to replaces Hawk Mk 53 and OV 10.
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Old April 25th, 2010   #75
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End of C 130 B in TNI AU ?

From Jurnal Nasional with Google tranlations:

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Indonesian Air Force plans to budget the purchase of the Hercules. This will be aimed on the section of the existing Hercules aircraft which was already 45 years old. This was tated by the Chief of Staff Air Force (Air Force Chief) Marshal Imam Sufaat was accompanied by Head of Information Department of the Air Force, Air Marshal TNI First Bambang Samoedro in the Hercules Room Executive Club Persada, Halim Lanud PK, Jakarta, Saturday (24 / 4).

Imam explained, this Hercules aircraft could be used until the age of 50 years, so maximum usage period lived five more years. According to the American team, who evaluate the appropriateness of the use of Hercules aircraft can survive only five more years. "So, the frame was only until the age of 50 years. So they will not be responsible if anything happens," said Imam Sufaat.

According to Imam, ahead as planned in the Strategic Plan was already time to look for new Hercules aircraft replacement. Only problem is the budget problem, because very expensive. "We plan to conduct additional nine Hercules," he said.
The 45 years old Hercules was the C 130 B, and coincidently TNI AU had 9 C 130 B according to the lists. This related with previous statements that TNI AU wants to standardise all C 130 in its inventory to the H type.

However this put the questions on the further deal with Singaporean Aerospaces on modificating C 130 B fleet.
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