Go Back   Defense Technology & Military Forum > Global Defense & Military > Air Force & Aviation
Forgot Password? Join Us! Its's free!

Defense News
Land, Air & Naval Forces






Military Photos
Latest Military Pictures

F-35_launches_Joint_Strike_Missile.jpg

us-south-korea-drill.jpg

this-year-12700-us-troops-are-participating-alongside-many-more-south-korean-soldiers.jpg

the-us-routinely-dedicates-an-extremely-large-contingent-of-soldiers-and-marines-to-the-drills.jpg
Defense Reports
Aerospace & Defence







Recent Photos - DefenceTalk Military Gallery





Indonesian Aero News

This is a discussion on Indonesian Aero News within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; I would imagine it's not that hard to fiddle with the IFFs to match with what you already fly. But ...


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 9 votes, 3.67 average.
Old December 23rd, 2009   #46
Super Moderator
General
Feanor's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Under your bed. No seriously, take a look.
Posts: 12,885
Threads:
I would imagine it's not that hard to fiddle with the IFFs to match with what you already fly. But 4 squadrons of each? That's pretty expensive. If your squadrons are at 12 aircraft a piece, that's an order of 96 aircraft. Not cheap. Not cheap at all. In fact completely out of line with the tiny purchases of 4 and 6 planes that have been going on so far.
Feanor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23rd, 2009   #47
Senior Member
Lieutenant Colonel
Ananda's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,289
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
I would imagine it's not that hard to fiddle with the IFFs to match with what you already fly. But 4 squadrons of each? That's pretty expensive. If your squadrons are at 12 aircraft a piece, that's an order of 96 aircraft. Not cheap. Not cheap at all. In fact completely out of line with the tiny purchases of 4 and 6 planes that have been going on so far.
Feanor, sorry for my english. What I mean was in 2004, the then Air Force Chief comment on requirements of 4 sq of Flankers from both types. So, it's 2 sq for each types.
However even that it's preety ambitious considering it's amount to 48 Flankers (12 pc for 1 sq). Considering the amount of money being invested in the Air Force, and considering the money will be prioritize on Transports and replacements of Hawk Mk 53 and OV 10, the additional flankers (in that number) still a far, far way to go.

Recent sources only says that after 2009 contract for 6 Flankers ( 3 SU 30 and 3 SU 27), the additional potential for the next contract will be another 6 (the fastest with 2010 contract thus 2011 delivery), in order to make full sq stregth of 16 aircrafts in Makasar.

Frankly speaking beyond the number of 16 (thus 6 more flankers than current 10 already purchased), I don't see any additional purchase in the next two years.

However back to your original questions on why both SU 27 & SU 30, one of the law makers/parlement members on the defence comitte, already stated that both SU 30 & SU 27 will in the end replaced F 5 and Potential F 16. For that, I can only provide you with this explanations, why we choose to acquaired both types of Flankers.

But then again, the air force still wants F 16 Blok 52

If this guessing game, the best possibility for TNI AU Orbat will be in 2014

1 sq of SU 30
1 sq of SU 27 (for F 5 replacements)
1 sq of F 16 A
1 sq of F 16 Blok 52 (the Air Force best wish, however still do not hold many political support) *
2 Sq of Hawk 100/200
1 sq of Super Tucano...(yes I have to bit my own tounge on this )
1 sq of Yak 130 (due to now it's the front end candidates in replacing Hawk MK 53).\

8 sq of Fighters was the number of sq that's being shown by the air force on their 5 years (2010 - 2014) plan.
*) those F 16 Blok 52 already in US offer, but getting them facing thoughest political challanges in parlements, since many in here still remembered US embargoes, thus in the name of National Security, many politicians still want to get rid of US Build Fighters if the opportunity arise. Thus why the 4 Sq of Flankers still hold support, if they can come out with the money to acquired them.

So how this will end up, it's still a guessing game. After all in Indonesia, anything it's possible.
Ananda is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 23rd, 2009   #48
Senior Member
Brigadier General
No Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,805
Threads:
Ananda, terima kasih! Appreciate the input.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the US embargo due to East Timor, which led to the grounding of the F-16s and C-130s played a big part in the Flankers being ordered, is this correct?

Are all the Flanker pilots former F-16 pilots? I think in the comings years it will be interesting to see TNI-AU and RMAF Flankers taking part in MALINDO.
STURM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23rd, 2009   #49
Senior Member
Lieutenant Colonel
Ananda's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,289
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by STURM View Post
Ananda, terima kasih! Appreciate the input.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the US embargo due to East Timor, which led to the grounding of the F-16s and C-130s played a big part in the Flankers being ordered, is this correct?

Are all the Flanker pilots former F-16 pilots? I think in the comings years it will be interesting to see TNI-AU and RMAF Flankers taking part in MALINDO.
Yep, the US embargoes was the catalyst. However the planned for Flankers dated back before the US embargoes, at the time after Santa Cruz incidents when Soeharto request for adittional F 16 (ex Pakistan that're still in US soils), faces tough oppositions in US congress.

Those Flankers pilots not necceseraly ex F 16. Many of them also ex A-4.
Ananda is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 23rd, 2009   #50
Super Moderator
General
Feanor's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Under your bed. No seriously, take a look.
Posts: 12,885
Threads:
Thank you. That makes a lot of sense.
Feanor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 25th, 2009   #51
New Member
Private
sunshin3's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 40
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ananda View Post
Feanor, sorry for my english. What I mean was in 2004, the then Air Force Chief comment on requirements of 4 sq of Flankers from both types. So, it's 2 sq for each types.
However even that it's preety ambitious considering it's amount to 48 Flankers (12 pc for 1 sq). Considering the amount of money being invested in the Air Force, and considering the money will be prioritize on Transports and replacements of Hawk Mk 53 and OV 10, the additional flankers (in that number) still a far, far way to go.
Don't worry about your English as your subsequent explanation has clarified the post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ananda View Post
But then again, the air force still wants F 16 Blok 52

If this guessing game, the best possibility for TNI AU Orbat will be in 2014

1 sq of SU 30
1 sq of SU 27 (for F 5 replacements)
1 sq of F 16 A
1 sq of F 16 Blok 52 (the Air Force best wish, however still do not hold many political support) *
2 Sq of Hawk 100/200
1 sq of Super Tucano...(yes I have to bit my own tounge on this )
1 sq of Yak 130 (due to now it's the front end candidates in replacing Hawk MK 53).
I also think that it is unlikely that Indonesia will acquire more F-16s.
sunshin3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 12th, 2010   #52
Senior Member
Lieutenant Colonel
Ananda's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,289
Threads:
Depressing News...Another COIN Sq..BLEEHHH

From ANTARA news agency using Google Translate

Quote:
MATARAM - airforce will buy 16 Super Tucano aircraft made by Embraer of Brazil to replace the tactical fighter aircraft OV-10 Bronco North American Rockwell.

"It had been decided at the Air Force Headquarters to replace the aircraft that had been using the OV-10 Bronco with as many as 16 Super Tucano to the needs of the unit or a squadron of fighter," said Commander of the Air Force Operational Command (Pangkoopsau) Vice Marshal Yushan Sayuti, in Mataram, Tuesday (12 / 1).

He suggested that after leading a ceremony for receiving the position of Rembiga Airfield from Lieutenant Colonel Pnb I Made Susila Adnyana to Lieutenant Colonel Pnb Anondo.

Sayuti said the replacement aircraft had been planned since 2007 but will not be realized in this year after the government provides budgetary support. "Efforts to replaced the OV-10 Bronco was in the process at the Department of Defense, hopefully soon be realized according to the amount specified," he said.

OV-10F (OV-10 variant specifically for the TNI-AU) was incorporated in 1/Bronco Flight Squadron based in Lanud Abdul Rachman Saleh, Malang, East Java.

Super Tucano aircraft made by Embraer of Brazil is operated by several countries in Latin America, including Brazil, Colombia, Guatemala and the Dominican Republic. As OV-10 Bronco, Super Tucano is also designed for light air attacks, antigerilya, training aircraft and patrol the border with weapons and avionics systems are more sophisticated.
Bleeh, bleeh, bleeehh...what' the h**l they're thinking... Another COIN...??
Common sense are gone...with limited budgets...why still forcing to have specialised COIN sq's..??

Oohhh well I really have to bit my tounge this time...
Ananda is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 25th, 2010   #53
Senior Member
Brigadier General
No Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,805
Threads:
Ananda,

With the fighting in Acheh now over do you think there is still a need for a COIN tuboprop such as the Tucano? Or does the TNI-AU intend to use the Tucano for FAC, patrol and as a CAS platform? In my opinion, the real value of the Tucano for the TNI-AU will be in patroling land borders and littoral areas.

Lastly, despite all the controvesy in the West over the combat use of TNI-AU Hawks in the early 90's, were Hawks actually used in Acheh? Thank you.

Last edited by STURM; January 25th, 2010 at 03:00 AM.
STURM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 27th, 2010   #54
Senior Member
Lieutenant Colonel
Ananda's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,289
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by STURM View Post
Ananda,

With the fighting in Acheh now over do you think there is still a need for a COIN tuboprop such as the Tucano? Or does the TNI-AU intend to use the Tucano for FAC, patrol and as a CAS platform? In my opinion, the real value of the Tucano for the TNI-AU will be in patroling land borders and littoral areas.

Lastly, despite all the controvesy in the West over the combat use of TNI-AU Hawks in the early 90's, were Hawks actually used in Acheh? Thank you.
Well...I think I already stated my oppinion on having specialised turboprop like tucano's...when the need for counterinsurgencies are dwindling...and the Army already having MI 35 anyway..as if they (TNI AU) flooding with budgets that they can afford on having specialised COIN anyway..

However your oppinion on potential usage of Tucano's was right..at least from TNI AU stand of point..they need it to patrol land borders.
That's why they planned to stationed them in Tarakan near Sabah's border...the arguments's that the land border in borneo's difficult to patrol by land thus the smugling of raw timber and coal's rampant.
I think they want also to stationed a tucano's flight in Papua's border..

Still with limited budgets they should be more focus on having/reducing the aircraft types..
Anyway..the actual confirmation of agrrement from Ministry Of Defences's not out yet..Rumours says that several brass in the MinDef procurements agency wants TNI AU to have simmilar aircraft to replaces Hawk Mk 53 and OV 10..Which in my mind is the right move...

On Hawk issues..from what I gather..TNI AU on Aceh by that time relly on OV 10 and Not Hawk 100/200.
Ananda is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 27th, 2010   #55
Senior Member
Lieutenant Colonel
Ananda's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,289
Threads:
Indonesian Aerospaces

From IA (PT DI) press statement:

Quote:
Cooperation Between PTDI and Eurocopter

PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI) and Eurocopter Directors celebrated today in Bandung the beginning of Airframe assembly for EC725/EC225 Helicopters, the latest version of the “Super Puma” family. This milestone highlights the excellent project coordination and relationship between the two teams. The first fuselage is expected to be delivered at the end of 2011.

Through this cooperation PTDI will produce Tail Boom and Fuselage for EC725/EC225 Helicopters until 2020. The production phase will start with the production of tail boom, in January 2010 and will be continued with the production of fuselage in May 2010. The first Tail Boom is expected to be delivered in October 2010, while the first Fuselage is intended to be delivered in November 2011. 6 Tail Boom units will be delivered in 2011, followed by 10 units in 2012 and then 12 units per year (one unit per month) during the remaining years until 2020.

Eurocopter chose PTDI as the main Supplier in the world for the airframe component on this family of helicopters. The work package will absorb no less than 50% of domestic share value from the manufacturing of elementary parts in more than 4000 parts and assembly of major component, in more than 500 sub-assemblies.

Eurocopter is assisting PTDI during the early stage of the cooperation (non recurring-phase) in the following areas: product planning and tooling; qualification of special processes, jigs and production facilities; certification of key production staff ; procurement planning and supply-chain management. The assistance will enhance DI capabilities to produce airframe for the most advanced transport helicopters.

PTDI signed a cooperation agreement on Airframe production with Eurocopter in the end of 2008. The cooperation is a continuation of long history of cooperation between PTDI & Eurocopter which began in 1978, when PTDI (former IPTN) began assemble SA-330 “Puma” Helicopter, then continued in 1981 with the production of airframe for AS-332 “Super Puma” MK I.
Its a good business move from DI (IA). Having more subcontract jobs was a sensible way to move forward..and making better bases to specialised on lighter planes. Not doing High Prestige but Commercially Unviable projects like they used to do at Soeharto's era.
Ananda is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2010   #56
Senior Member
Lieutenant Colonel
Ananda's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,289
Threads:
Final Confirmation for Super Tucano

Quote:
JAKARTA - MI: Air Force Chief of Staff (rafters) Imam Sufaat Marshal TNI TNI AU says planning to buy one Squadron (16 units) Super Tucano fighter planes made by Brazil as a replacement for OV-fighter who has 10 years dikandangkan since 2007.

"Initially budgeted at only U.S. $ 200 million, but because of information from producer price rises then the budget is not enough U.S. $ 13 million per unit. Therefore, the TNI AU proposes additional budget of U.S. $ 50 million in 2010 bringing the total budget to U.S. $ 250 million," said Imam the Working Meeting with the House Commission I with the Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro.

The meeting was also attended by TNI Commander General Djoko Santoso, Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Agus Suhartono, Vice Minister of Defense, Army General Sjafrie Sjamsuddin, and the Deputy Army Chief of Staff Lieutenant General John Suryo Prabowo was held at the House of Representatives Commission I Senayan Jakarta, Monday (22 / 2).

Rafter explains, the plan purchase Super Tucano aircraft have been programmed in the budget two years in 2009 is budgeted U.S. $ 148 million and in 2010 reached U.S. $ 52 million.
According to Imam, the benefits of super tucano aircraft is not only cheaper than the type of fighter F-16, but the most expensive operating costs. For an hour the Super Tucano aircraft operation requires only U.S. $ 70.

"I hope the House of Representatives Commission I, Minister of Defense and Armed Forces Commander can support the faster realization of the Super Tucano aircraft purchases in 2010 was," he said. Beams also explained, the Super Tucano aircraft is a tactical fighter aircraft that served as a counter insurgency, and as the plane remote control air (air control aircraft). Another advantage, said rafter, the Super Tucano aircraft capable of carrying at least 1500 pounds of ammunition grams. In addition, the Super Tucano aircraft was also used by many countries including the United States. Super Tucano aircraft is also better because it can operate at least three hours.


In Brazil, according to the rafters, the Super Tucano aircraft was successfully reduced illegal logging, trafficking. "Specification Super Tucano fighter planes are better and bigger. Temput Used as a tactical aircraft and counter insurgency and water remote control, and also be used as reconnaissance aircraft," he said.


Rafter added, the process of buying Super Tucano aircraft have been discussed since 2007, and the process also has been running announcements.TNI AU, including the House of Representatives Commission I've 2004-2009 period conduct a review in its factory in February 2007.
According to him, desperately need airforce aircraft purchase temput type Super Tucano aircraft to replace temput OV-10 type of dikandangkan after an accident on October 4, 2007. (ST/OL-7) (ST/OL-7)


( Media Indonesia ) (Media Indonesia)
From Media Indonesia using Google translate.

Well, that's the Air Force Chief acting just like Embraer Salesman discussing why TNI AU need Super Tucano. The Aircraft will be based on Tarakan near Malaysian Borneo borders to conducts border patrols and illegal logging preventions as the main job (just what the Brazillian air force uses their Super Tucano on Amazon patrol duties).

Well that's it...with limited budget they still wastes that on Specialized coin fighters...regardless that money could be better off buying second hand F 16 sq.

O welll
Ananda is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 24th, 2010   #57
Just Hatched
Private
No Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 9
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ananda View Post
Well that's it...with limited budget they still wastes that on Specialized coin fighters...regardless that money could be better off buying second hand F 16 sq.

O welll
How would a second hand F16 squadron help? An additional F16 squadron would bolster the air force's capabilities substantially in comparison to existing capabilities, but would the air force be able to support, sustain and maintain an additional squadron? In addition, what purpose would this additional F16 squadron serve? While providing additional combat and patrol capability as well showing the flag/chest thumping, an additional squadron of F16s would not help very much with the duties outlined. In a combat situation, would the additional squadron, if that much could be afforded in the first place, be particularly useful? Would an additional F16 squadron deter any possible hostilities from taking place? The Tucanos certainly wouldn't, but they provide options for daily use, especially for monitoring and patrol purposes.

As for money spent, how many F16s do you think the TNI-AU could have bought with the money budgeted for the Tucanos?
dtwn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24th, 2010   #58
Senior Member
Lieutenant Colonel
Ananda's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,289
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtwn View Post
How would a second hand F16 squadron help? An additional F16 squadron would bolster the air force's capabilities substantially in comparison to existing capabilities, but would the air force be able to support, sustain and maintain an additional squadron? In addition, what purpose would this additional F16 squadron serve? While providing additional combat and patrol capability as well showing the flag/chest thumping, an additional squadron of F16s would not help very much with the duties outlined. In a combat situation, would the additional squadron, if that much could be afforded in the first place, be particularly useful? Would an additional F16 squadron deter any possible hostilities from taking place? The Tucanos certainly wouldn't, but they provide options for daily use, especially for monitoring and patrol purposes.

As for money spent, how many F16s do you think the TNI-AU could have bought with the money budgeted for the Tucanos?
First of all, what's the need for specialized COIN (Counter Insurgences) for TNI AU anymore...It's urgent..??
The Air Force said it's urgent because the OV 10 already grounded, and they need replacements for COIN duty soon..Again the questions is; It's still neceesary for the Air Force to maintain COIN capabilities.??
COIN (in the form of OV 10) was build by TNI AU basically to handle the problem in East Timor, and latter on double duty with problem in Aceh..
Indonesia do not have to worry anymore with problem in East Timor..and Aceh already got political solutions. Problem lays still in Papua..but this problem is very low intensity compared what the East Timor Guerilla and Aceh separatist capable of..certaintly is not worth to have COIN fighters there.

Second, the Army already and will keep continue build their own Gunship capabilities in the form of MI 35. This alone basically abble to conduct COIN duties, which again will raised the questions why the Air Force still need specialised COIN... Are the Air Force not willing to let the Army taking over COIN duties..??
The only arguments that the Air Force can sold now to have Super Tucano, was it's needed for border control in Borneo just as the Brazillian do in the Amazon. However there're other ways to improved border control that's does not requires building specialised COIN sq...Improving the Army Gunship inventories certaintly was one.

Third, even the operational cost of supersonic fighters like F 16 certaintly will be more expensive then a turboprop COIN fighters like Super Tucano, however maintaining squadrons with different types of Aircraft also not cheap. On Fighters TNI AU now have to maintain SU27/30, F 16, F 5, Hawk 100/200, and now will have to maintain Super Tucano. The numbers of each aircraft types also very limited..thus also increased the operational logistical costs.
In sense TNI AU should reduce the aircraft types it's operated...not acquairing another type which will need another set of logistical support lines..And even if they still demanding COIN..for the sake of the costs they should go with Modified KT-1..since they already use that as basic trainers anyway.
In short, for long term..maintaining 2 sq of F 16 will be not more expensive than maintaining 1 sq of F 16 and 1 sq of Super Tucano.

Fourth, based on the amount that Jordan, Chille and what the US Air Force has offered for second hand modified (MLU) F 16, it's around USD 20 mio and USD 25 mio. Thus the Air Force can have another 10-12 F 16 (MLU) with the money they will spend on Super Tucano. It's enough for another sq of F 16.
Super Tucano will be limited to operated on Borneo land border or litoral water near Borneo's border. It's not enough and not build to operated conducting CAP throughout this Archipelago air spaces. F 16 also provided the Airforce the flexibility to be stationed on temporary basis in the supporting air bases throughout Indonesia. You can also move Super Tucano's around, however they will not provide the smae flexibility as F 16 did.

Last, looking all the above, getting another COIN sq by the air force is not more than another inter agency budget competions. The Air Force do not provide enough strong reasons to maintain COIN sq, however they also do not want that budget to be given to the Army to support additional gunships capabilities.
Ananda is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 25th, 2010   #59
Just Hatched
Private
No Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 9
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ananda View Post
First of all, what's the need for specialized COIN (Counter Insurgences) for TNI AU anymore...It's urgent..??
The Air Force said it's urgent because the OV 10 already grounded, and they need replacements for COIN duty soon..Again the questions is; It's still neceesary for the Air Force to maintain COIN capabilities.??
COIN (in the form of OV 10) was build by TNI AU basically to handle the problem in East Timor, and latter on double duty with problem in Aceh..
Indonesia do not have to worry anymore with problem in East Timor..and Aceh already got political solutions. Problem lays still in Papua..but this problem is very low intensity compared what the East Timor Guerilla and Aceh separatist capable of..certaintly is not worth to have COIN fighters there.
Why focus on COIN? The Tucano can do more than that. COIN operations are winding down, that's a fact. The Tucano is marketed as a COIN aircraft, but it can do far more.However, the Tucano can do more than COIN ops, as you've noted, border patrols and patrols against illegal logging are still applicable, and will only grow in use, as demands for COIN operations trail off. Evidently you know that, as you have stated as much.
Quote:
However your oppinion on potential usage of Tucano's was right..at least from TNI AU stand of point..they need it to patrol land borders.
That's why they planned to stationed them in Tarakan near Sabah's border...the arguments's that the land border in borneo's difficult to patrol by land thus the smugling of raw timber and coal's rampant.
I think they want also to stationed a tucano's flight in Papua's border..
Are you simply drawing too much from the fact that the Tucano is marketed as a light attack/COIN aircraft?

Quote:
Second, the Army already and will keep continue build their own Gunship capabilities in the form of MI 35. This alone basically abble to conduct COIN duties, which again will raised the questions why the Air Force still need specialised COIN... Are the Air Force not willing to let the Army taking over COIN duties..??
The only arguments that the Air Force can sold now to have Super Tucano, was it's needed for border control in Borneo just as the Brazillian do in the Amazon. However there're other ways to improved border control that's does not requires building specialised COIN sq...Improving the Army Gunship inventories certaintly was one.
For one, fixed wing CAS and rotary wing CAS are quite different things. Both sides have their pros and cons. I'm actually curious as to why you're simply focusing on COIN. Could the Tucano not be used for patrol purposes as well? And you've mentioned the patrolling duties yourself, so why emphasize on the fact that it is a COIN aircraft? It is more than that. Much as how the Brazilians are using theirs.

Quote:
Third, even the operational cost of supersonic fighters like F 16 certaintly will be more expensive then a turboprop COIN fighters like Super Tucano, however maintaining squadrons with different types of Aircraft also not cheap. On Fighters TNI AU now have to maintain SU27/30, F 16, F 5, Hawk 100/200, and now will have to maintain Super Tucano. The numbers of each aircraft types also very limited..thus also increased the operational logistical costs.
In sense TNI AU should reduce the aircraft types it's operated...not acquairing another type which will need another set of logistical support lines..And even if they still demanding COIN..for the sake of the costs they should go with Modified KT-1..since they already use that as basic trainers anyway.
If the TNI-AU was previously maintaining OV-10s, and now intends to replace OV-10s with Super Tucanos, how does that increase the number of types of aircraft to be maintained? It doesn't. And while the KT-1 is an interesting option, the Super Tucano is capable of a substantially larger load. The Tucano has a far larger payload and an extended range compared to the KT-1. The KT-1 would have to be modified with at least an upgraded engine to provide similar performance to the Tucano, but that's not a bad idea, especially if they were willing to take the performance hit.

Quote:
In short, for long term..maintaining 2 sq of F 16 will be not more expensive than maintaining 1 sq of F 16 and 1 sq of Super Tucano.
Are you serious? There's little accurate information for quantifying the two, and while you would not require cross training for the support staff, you're probably going to need more specialized and trained staff to deal with the F16s as well, and while you may have some of that existing staff, and will have to train more as you go, you will still have to increase the number of staff to deal with the increased number of aircraft. The cost of spares is also drastically higher compared to the simpler parts in the Tucano. Avionics, electrical and engine components are likely to be substantially cheaper for the Tucano. They are also very different aircraft designed for different purposes.

Quote:
Fourth, based on the amount that Jordan, Chille and what the US Air Force has offered for second hand modified (MLU) F 16, it's around USD 20 mio and USD 25 mio. Thus the Air Force can have another 10-12 F 16 (MLU) with the money they will spend on Super Tucano. It's enough for another sq of F 16.
Super Tucano will be limited to operated on Borneo land border or litoral water near Borneo's border. It's not enough and not build to operated conducting CAP throughout this Archipelago air spaces. F 16 also provided the Airforce the flexibility to be stationed on temporary basis in the supporting air bases throughout Indonesia. You can also move Super Tucano's around, however they will not provide the smae flexibility as F 16 did.

Last, looking all the above, getting another COIN sq by the air force is not more than another inter agency budget competions. The Air Force do not provide enough strong reasons to maintain COIN sq, however they also do not want that budget to be given to the Army to support additional gunships capabilities.
Kinda curious as to where you got the figures for the MLU units, as the data I found was somewhat scattered. The Jordan and Chile units were also released from Dutch/Belgian aircraft, and the European states have been offering their surplus stuff for sale at fire-sale prices as they cut down on military expenditure and forces. If TNI-AU can afford to get in on that deal, more power to them.

As I mentioned earlier, the F16s may offer an increased combat capability, but is that combat capability of any use? Would it be sufficient to deter hostilities, and if not, would the additional combat capability be sufficient to defeat potential attackers? Having the aircraft, but not the weapons and systems capability to locate and destroy the attackers is of little more utility. The air forces in the region, i.e. RAAF, RMAF or RSAF could at the very least maintain parity the TNI-AU, even with the additional F-16 squadron. Am I saying that an extra F-16 purchase is ill-conceived? Hardly. I'm saying, there's a need to prioritize, and the TNI-AU has chosen to do so in a direction you do not agree upon.

Regarding the claim of the F-16's superior flexibility over the Tucano,, what exactly were you referring to? Tthe Tucano is capable of using airfields that require far less preparation and maintenance compared to the F-16. If you are referring to weapons capability and speed of deployment, the Tucano certainly has lower speed, but could be based much closer to the action and possibly provide a longer loiter time at substantially lower costs. And the Tucano is designed for the CAS, COIN and ground patrol roles; roles that the F-16, especially with the more limited weapon loadout the TNI-AU units have, may not be substantially better at, if at all. If you are looking for air space denial or defense, the Tucano is obviously not in the same league, but the TNI-AU isn't looking for an interceptor in the Tucano.

You don't like the Tucano purchase, by all means, feel free to do so, but it certainly has its uses.

Last edited by dtwn; February 25th, 2010 at 04:56 AM.
dtwn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2010   #60
Senior Member
Lieutenant Colonel
Ananda's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,289
Threads:
Let put in short response:

1. Super Tucano is a COIN fighters..not marketed as one..but it's a COIN fighters. Coin fighters like OV 10, Pucara, was able to do CAS, Patrol. SAR, and off course COIN. Nothing that super tucano offer that's different than what OV 10 and Pucar does dexades ago..except it has modern equipement..which done more or less same thing with more efficient capabilities. But no mistake it's JUST a COIN Fighters.
So I suggest don't make even assumption that Tucano can even match the basic capabilities of F 16.
2.TNI AU was not a rich air force. However it has to maintain large types of aircraft with limited numbers each. That's mean high and unefficient logistical maiintannaces costs. Richer Air Force likes Singaporean and RAAF maintain less number of Aircraft Types (however each with much larger numbers) than TNI AU. Even commercial airliner now only run two. three or four at most types of aircraft, however each with larger number of aircraft. So the anwers is on quantity of each types and not the quantity of types the air force operating.
And before talking back to me saying Air Force is diiferent than commercial airliner, however the basic princip for operation effectiveness is the same, so does the logistical problem onmaintaining the Fleet. In short found the type of aircrat that's can do several jobs (multipuprpose) better. F 16 can do majority jobs that Tucano can..however tucanos' can not begin to do even half of what F 16 capable off.
3. I never said Super Tucano is a not capable fighters (for its purpose) I have mentioned on several posts before that super tucano is a superb COIN. However the questions was, that with limited budget..TNI AU should not maintain large types of Aircraft. Having COIN while in the same time maintaining several types of Jets was not a smart move (again for TNI AU consitions).
Look at the Philipines..due to budget constraint choose to maintain only COIN and not Jets..however Philipines do need COIN most than jets. So it's prioritizing. That's what i'm getting on. TNI AU must do prioritizing. The need for COIN was much reduced..and the Army already has and build it's own COIN capabilities. Then why should the Air Force priotize to get and maintain it's own SPECIALISED COIN capabilities..??
TNI AU says it wants to have technological par with the neighbours. That's mean having MODERN Jets fighters (simplification offcourse). If that's what it's wants..then the money should be used on having more. Even it means can not get the same amount of fighters like the Tucano's proposed deal.

Again all my objections on Super Tucano's deal will be different if TNI AU is a RICH Air force.
Ananda is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:23 AM.