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This is a discussion on Indonesian Aero News within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Indonesia Looking at Russian, Chinese Trainer/Attack Aircraft 16-Nov-2009 15:41 EST Related Stories: Asia - China, Asia - Other, Contracts - ...


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Old December 4th, 2009   #31
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No More Coin ?

Indonesia Looking at Russian, Chinese Trainer/Attack Aircraft
16-Nov-2009 15:41 EST
Related Stories: Asia - China, Asia - Other, Contracts - Intent, Fighters & Attack, Issues - International, Issues - Political, Russia, Specialty Aircraft



Quote:
In August 2007, “Indonesia’s Air Force Adds More Flankers” chronicled its purchase of Russian SU-27SK and SU-30MKK fighters. The Flankers would supplement and/or replace fleets of F-16A/B and F-5E/F Tiger II fighters, whose condition was harmed by a long arms embargo imposed in response to widespread repression and genocide in East Timor.

East Timor became independent in 2002, and the American embargo on military supplies to Indonesia was lifted in 2005. Nevertheless, the effects of foregone maintenance can be lasting, and the experience was firmly etched into Indonesia’s military consciousness. Subsequent incidents, such as the UK’s injunctions against using British-made Scorpion light tanks against Aceh’s separatist revolt, only deepened the determination of Indonesia’s military and political leaders to deal with a different set of military suppliers.

In fall 2007, “Indonesia Signs $1B+ Defense Credit Agreement With Russia” chronicled the next step under that policy. Now Indonesia is looking to replace its fleets of BAE Hawk Mk.53 trainer jets, and OV-10 Bronco forward air control/ counterinsurgency aircraft. Their replacements will reportedly be Russian – and Chinese…


The Yak-130 was developed as a joint project by Alenia Aermacchi, and Russia’s Yakolev Design Bureau. The partners ended up going their separate ways, fielding 2-seat aircraft with similar lines but different internal equipment. By 2006 the aircraft had beaten the MiG-AT and Sukhoi’s S-54 to be selected as Russia’s next advanced jet trainer, and has also been sold to Algeria. There are also reports that Libya has 6 on order.

While Alenia’s M-346 Master emphasizes its role as an advanced trainer and aerobatic jet, the similar Yak-130 can also be heavily armed for air policing patrol, or counter-insurgency/ ground attack missions. Its NIIP Zhukovsky Osa radar offers adequate performance, and its 8 hardpoints can carry up to 3,000 kg/ 6,600 pounds of weapons. These reportedly include Western equipment like AIM-9L/Magic 2 short-range air-air missiles (SRAAM) and AGM-65 Maverick precision strike missiles; as well as Russian weapons like the advanced R-73/ AA-11 Archer SRAAM, a Platan targeting pod, the Vhikr and KH-25ML laser guided missiles, the KAB-500Kr guided bomb, 23mm or 30mm gun pods, or rockets and unguided bombs. The Yak-130 is powered by a pair of AI-222-25 or Povazske Strojarne DV-2SM (export option) turbofans.

The Yak-130 offers similar capabilities to Indonesia’s 8 existing Hawk 109 trainers, and may be actually more comparable to its 29 single-seat Hawk 209 light attack aircraft. Unlike the Tentara Nasional Indonesia Angkatan Udara’s (TNI–AU, Indonesia’s air force) 20 Hawk Mk.53 trainers, which were ordered in 1980-81 and reportedly have few operational planes left, these 1990s-era Hawk fleets remain operational, and are expected to remain in service with the TNI-AU.

China National Guizhou Aviation Industry’s JiaoLian-9, known as FTC-2000 Shanying (Mountain Eagle) when exported, is derived from China’s JJ-7 trainer. Which was, in turn, derived from Russian 2-seat MiG-21s. Visible enhancements include a raised cockpit that greatly improves visibility for both pilots, a correspondingly larger dorsal “spine”, a cranked delta wing to improve handling characteristics, and moving the engine intake from the plane’s nose to a pair of small side intakes.

The JL-9 uses a Chinese WP-13 or WP-14 turbojet engine, and carries Chinese electronics, and weapons. It reportedly packs an internal 23mm cannon, and has 5 stores stations that can carry up to 2,000 kg/ 4,400 pounds of fuel tanks, short-range air-air missiles, or rocket launders and unguided bombs. Its derivation from the MiG-21 gives it questionable suitability as a ground attack aircraft, but they could be used effectively for secondary air policing, especially if equipped with SELEX Galileo’s Grifo S7 radar.

Contracts and Key Events


Indonesia
Nov 13/09: The Jakarta Post quotes newly sworn-in Indonesian Air Force chief of staff Vice Marshal Imam Safaat, who says that Russian Yak-130s and Chinese FTC-2000s would replace Indonesia’s 20 remaining British Hawk Mk.53 trainer jets (2 reportedly operational), and remaining American OV-10 Bronco turboprops (0-8 operational).

At this point, this is pre-budget intent, and not a contract. The age of Indonesia’s Hawk and Bronco fleets, and the importance of training, will add urgency to this request. Imam said that these aircraft are “expensive” and would be bought with the help of foreign aid.

The new TNI-AU chief added that the service also plans to replace its 16 F-5E/Fs (4 reportedly operational) by 2013.

Indonesia’s economy has performed well in recent years, and the TNI-AU budget is expected to increase by 25%-75% over the next year, adding $105-320 million. Nevertheless, a verdict that even the Yak-130 and FTC-2000 are expensive could suggest these very aircraft for the F-5’s roles. Both designs are capable of handling those roles at comparable performance levels, and the shrinkage of Indonesia’s front-line combat fleet makes a large array of single-focus trainers a dubious proposition, unless ample money is available for more front-line fighters as well. The flip side of that choice is that beyond the Yak-130’s strong close air support capabilities, these 2 choices would not be competitive with modern fighters.

Alternatively, Indonesia could cast a wider net, and look to purchase both replacement trainers, and low-budget dedicated fighters like the Chinese/Pakistani JF-17 Thunder, India’s Tejas, or South Korea’s TA-50 Golden Eagle to replace its F-5s. A more ambitious effort might even examine higher-end lightweight fighters like the Russian MiG-29/35, Chinese J-10, or the Swedish JAS-39 Gripen flown by nearby Thailand. Of these lightweight fighter choices, the Russian MiG-29/35 and Chinese JF-17 or J-10 are the only options that would be immune to future western military sanctions. All of the other choices currently fly with General Electric turbofan engines, and are slated to continue using western designs.
This was couple of weeks old from defense industry dailly. I brought this up to show seems some of our brass are getting the massage that we do not need spesialised COIN to replace the OV 10. Getting the armed trainers will do the job.

This perhaps show indications on how the 8 sq of TNI AU will be in 2014. 2 sq of Hawk 100-200, 2 sq of Yak 130 then perhaps 2 sq of F/A 50 (if the planned with South Korea still moving forward) replacing F 5 and F 16, and 2 Sq of Flankers. However if the South Korean planned go sour than 4 sq of Yak 130 seems will be the target. Don't think on using Chinese Fighthers though, resistances in hre on using Chinese fighthers still quite strong. Using Chinese misssiles is one thing, than using the Chinese fighters.
Again this still speculations based on the how the potential procurements moving.
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Old December 6th, 2009   #32
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Oh no, not again
FTC 2000? Its just a heavy facelifted MIG-21

As for COIN, Ind AF has signed to buy Embraer Super Tucano


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Originally Posted by Ananda View Post
Indonesia Looking at Russian, Chinese Trainer/Attack Aircraft
16-Nov-2009 15:41 EST
Related Stories: Asia - China, Asia - Other, Contracts - Intent, Fighters & Attack, Issues - International, Issues - Political, Russia, Specialty Aircraft





This was couple of weeks old from defense industry dailly. I brought this up to show seems some of our brass are getting the massage that we do not need spesialised COIN to replace the OV 10. Getting the armed trainers will do the job.

This perhaps show indications on how the 8 sq of TNI AU will be in 2014. 2 sq of Hawk 100-200, 2 sq of Yak 130 then perhaps 2 sq of F/A 50 (if the planned with South Korea still moving forward) replacing F 5 and F 16, and 2 Sq of Flankers. However if the South Korean planned go sour than 4 sq of Yak 130 seems will be the target. Don't think on using Chinese Fighthers though, resistances in hre on using Chinese fighthers still quite strong. Using Chinese misssiles is one thing, than using the Chinese fighters.
Again this still speculations based on the how the potential procurements moving.
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Old December 6th, 2009   #33
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Confusing. Indonesia should only buy one type of COIN aircraft (Embraer Super Tucano A-29 light attack turboprop, K-1, etc.) It is much cheaper to develop maintenance/operations specialization in one aircraft family; then it is to develop maintenance/operations specialization in several aircraft families.

What will Indonesia eventually decide?

Off topic, Embraer Super Tucano A-29 light attack aircraft has had a lot of recent sales wins against its competitor platforms, including with the Afghan Air Force.
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Old December 7th, 2009   #34
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It's only a single engine turboprop aircraft
maybe the maintenance issue will be not so different

As to why TNI AU chose Super Tucano
The strong point is its 5th hard points (under belly) against only 4 in her competitor...
This could means longer endurance
And don't forget about its Israeli made avionic (Elbit) which made Super Tucano feels like a Mini Cooper whilst F-16 considered as BMW sedan

Something TNI AU couldn't find in KO-1

They desperately want more F-16s.... even in smaller scale


Quote:
Originally Posted by anan View Post
Confusing. Indonesia should only buy one type of COIN aircraft (Embraer Super Tucano A-29 light attack turboprop, K-1, etc.) It is much cheaper to develop maintenance/operations specialization in one aircraft family; then it is to develop maintenance/operations specialization in several aircraft families.

What will Indonesia eventually decide?

Off topic, Embraer Super Tucano A-29 light attack aircraft has had a lot of recent sales wins against its competitor platforms, including with the Afghan Air Force.
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Old December 7th, 2009   #35
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Originally Posted by bambu runcing View Post
Oh no, not again
FTC 2000? Its just a heavy facelifted MIG-21

As for COIN, Ind AF has signed to buy Embraer Super Tucano
Bambu Runcing, TNI AU only put Super Tucano's as their prefrences to replaced OV 10, however not any singgle contract has been ink. Remembered, the one that can ink the contract is the MInistry of Defences and not TNI AU.

I have put previously the articles from Brazil that say Indonesia has put contract on Super Tucano's however none of sources from Defence Ministry can confirm that.

The articles that I put here is quite interesting since this come from the new Air Force's chief. In this articles clearly he said that the new light fighter/trainers will replaces both Hawk Mk 53 and OV 10. Thus the new Air Force's Chief does not talked about Super Tucano's anymore.

This in my oppinions not supprising, since the advance of Super Tucano's to Defences Ministry seems not running smoothly.
Again there's still discussions on Defence MInistry on the need of spesialised COIN fighters. The idea that already put by then Ministry Of Defences Juwono Sudharsono was TNI AU already have too many aircraft types' but each only in limited numbers.

This will put strain on maintanance budgets..Thus the defence ministry also want to reduce the numbers of aircraft types on TNI AU inventories, however incerased the number of each type so the maintanaces can be done more economically. This point of view already said several times by MIniter of Defences and other Ministry sources.

I think the articles show that the new Air Force Chief are more in line with the thinking of ministry of defences, thus he wants to reduce the number of Aircraft types..like replacing two types (Hawk MK 53 and OV 10) to just one type. Even the articles suggest that the types choosen will potentially also to replace F 5. If this happen than the new types will replaces 3 sq of 3 different types of aircraft. This for TNI AU conditions is more sensibles.

I don't think they will choose Chinese fighters, like I put in my previous comment, buying Chinese MIssiles is one thing, but buying chinese fighters is another diiferent matter. Seems the strong candidates is Yak 130.

However do remembered, that the Government already have MoU with South Korea on possible join development of new Fighters which according to South Korean sources more likely to be A 50 (derivatives of T 50 Golden Eagle).
However with huge US components, can it be sell to the parlements which still show reluctances on buying US or Western equipments..???
Well that has to be seen..
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Old December 8th, 2009   #36
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Ananda (nice name by the way :-) ), what is the life cycle cost of a Yak 130 versus an A 50?

-cost per mile flown in maintenance refit?
-cost per mile flown in fuel?
-cost per engine?
-miles each engine can fly?

I would imagine that an A50 light attack aircraft substantially outperforms the Yak 130 in the large majority of military metrics.
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Old December 8th, 2009   #37
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I don't know that the numbers you're asking for are even publicly available. But if they are I wouldn't be surprised if the Yak-130 turned out to be quite inexpensive in those categories.
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Old December 8th, 2009   #38
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Ananda (nice name by the way :-) ), what is the life cycle cost of a Yak 130 versus an A 50?

-cost per mile flown in maintenance refit?
-cost per mile flown in fuel?
-cost per engine?
-miles each engine can fly?

I would imagine that an A50 light attack aircraft substantially outperforms the Yak 130 in the large majority of military metrics.
Sorry Anan, I don't think I have the number. Besides, A 50 it self actually (if I'm not mistaken) not exist yet (afterall only T 50 that already exist right..??).

I only have see one quatations from an Air Force Marshall (however regretfully that I read in one of Indonesian Magazines which no on line edition yet), who said that Yak 130 was considered due to relatively good quality, and economies to maintan.

A 50 I brought up in here due to certain MoU between Indonesia and South Korea on possible joint program of developing light weight Fighters. Still like I said, don't know how this MoU will developed further on.
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Old December 16th, 2009   #39
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Super Tucano..Yes or No..???

From an East Kalimantan Local newspaper (Tribun Kaltim), using google translations

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TARAKAN - Army Chief of Staff of the Air Force (KSAU) Air Vice Marshall Imam Sufaat with entourage, Tuesday (15/12) made a visit to the Headquarters Operations Command II, Tarakan airforce base.Danlanud Tarakan, pilots Lt. Col. Andrian Erwan revealed, the visit was related to KSAU TNI AU plans to put the Super Tucano aircraft in Tarakan. This aircraft will be patrolling the border area.

"Placement Super Tucano aircraft was, as a form of central government attention to the border area. This was in accordance with the mandate of the president to be noted in the border area. In the presence of these aircraft are expected to security in border areas can be maintained from the interference of other countries," he said.

In addition to placement of the Super Tucano aircraft, said Erwan, will be placed also a number of airforce personnel. The plan is 300 airforce personnel who will be stationed at Headquarters Operations Command in Tarakan. "Well certainly the number of personnel will be added, with the presence of the Super Tucano aircraft," he said.

According to Erwan, currently airforce personnel in Tarakan, only 33 people. Because until now the construction of housing for members of the TNI AU has not finished. "Building this house is still minimal, and not yet finished, so still waiting until 2010 to come," he said.

As information, Tucano aircraft is capable trainer aircraft COIN (Counter insurgency) or antigerilya attack aircraft made by Embraer Defense Systems, Brasilia. Super Tucano aircraft is a development of the EMB-312 Tucano.

Super Tucano has 2 machine guns located on the left and right, 5 hooks with composition stations each in 2 pieces left and right wing and 1 piece of the fuselage with a total weight 1550 kg. All stations can be installed MK-81 classed bomb, MK-82, multiple rocket launchers, and laser-guided bombs.

Source: TRIBUNKALTIM
I gave up on this one Seems the Air Force still show strong inclinations on having Super Tucano's eventhough no Defence Ministry source can confirm that they already agree with Super Tucano's as choices.

This newspaper quoted Tarakan air based commander which claim the Super Tucano will be based in there. This alone is not a news, since last year the previous Air Force Chief already stated their intentions if Super Tucano can be bought, they will stationed the sq near Malaysian Borneo's border in Tarakan.

Well perhaps another push by the Air Force to get approval from Defences Ministry on Super Tucano's. Personally I still don't understand why the air force insists on Spesialised COIN this days, when the perious statement from new Air Force Chief indicated they will replaced the trainers (Hawk Mk 52) and the COIN OV 10 with only one type of aircraft.

Well again, this's Indonesia...nothing clear..until it's being done anyway..
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Old December 16th, 2009   #40
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Know I have asked this question before, but how much does an Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano A-29 cost over 20 years assuming reasonable peace-time training excercises?
-Perhaps $100 million or $5 million per year?
-What is the cost per hour flown or per mile flown in fuel and maintenance?
-What is the life expectancy of the engine and the cost of replacing it?

How does this cost compare to the KT-1 or AT-6B Texan II? Presumably (from this thread and many others) the A-29 outperforms the KT-1 and AT-6B on most performance metrics.

Would it be fair to estimate that 100 A-29 attack aircraft might cost about $10 billion over 20 years, or $500 million a year assuming moderate flying time? Or would they be more expensive than that?

Thanks for your help.
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Old December 20th, 2009   #41
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Greetings everyone,

I have some questions about the TNI-AU and TNI-AD and would appreciate all feedback.

1. Have any weapons been delivered for the Flankers?

2. How many F-16As are operational and apart from Sidewinders and free fall bombs
were any other weapons acquired?

3. What is the status of the Hawk fleet with regards to attritional losses?

4. Have any missiles been acquired for the MiL-35s?

Thank you.
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Old December 22nd, 2009   #42
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Greetings everyone,

I have some questions about the TNI-AU and TNI-AD and would appreciate all feedback.

1. Have any weapons been delivered for the Flankers?

2. How many F-16As are operational and apart from Sidewinders and free fall bombs
were any other weapons acquired?

3. What is the status of the Hawk fleet with regards to attritional losses?

4. Have any missiles been acquired for the MiL-35s?

Thank you.
Sturm,

1. Yes the latest packages (3 SU 30 & 3 SU 27) also included weapon packages and wepons packages for the first 2 Su 30 & 2 Su 27. But what's not clear whether this includes Vympel BVRAAM.
2.For F 16, the latest exercise TNI AU flew 6 of them. The last four schedulled to be refiited to operational status by early next year. Sidewinder still the only AAM for our F 16, the other missiles's Mavericks.
3. Attritional loss for Hawk was quite high, but perhaps in percentage wise not as high as Hawk in RMAF. So far by last count there are 27 Hawk 200 and 5 Hawk 100 still operating, from original 40 Hawk (32 Hawk 200 and 8 Hawk 100). I'm not quite thrill with Hawk, as you can see from my previous posts. It's underperformed, hight atrition and in our cased overprices.
4. They already got Rockets and ATGM.
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Old December 22nd, 2009   #43
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Just out of curiosity, why does Indonesia purchase Su-27SK and Su-30MK?
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Old December 22nd, 2009   #44
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Ananda,

Thank you for your response. Another few questions,

Are the TNI-AUs Hawk 100s used for the light attack role apart from LIFT?

Did the TNI-AU require any modifications to be done for its Flankers prior to delivery, like changing the Russians radios, IFF, TACAN and cockpit instrumentstion?

Are the reports that a number of Pumas and CN-235s are armed with Exocets true?

Yes I noticed you're not a Hawk fan. What do you mean by its underperformed?
I think the TNI-AU had the same humidty problems as the RMAF did with the Hawks.

Has the TNI-AU or government indicated a requirement in the near future to supplement or replace the C-130s?

Last edited by STURM; December 22nd, 2009 at 11:35 AM.
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Old December 23rd, 2009   #45
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Ananda,

Thank you for your response. Another few questions,

Are the TNI-AUs Hawk 100s used for the light attack role apart from LIFT?

Did the TNI-AU require any modifications to be done for its Flankers prior to delivery, like changing the Russians radios, IFF, TACAN and cockpit instrumentstion?

Are the reports that a number of Pumas and CN-235s are armed with Exocets true?

Yes I noticed you're not a Hawk fan. What do you mean by its underperformed?
I think the TNI-AU had the same humidty problems as the RMAF did with the Hawks.

Has the TNI-AU or government indicated a requirement in the near future to supplement or replace the C-130s?
Feanor, I have no clear sources that's explain why we buy both SU 27 SK and SU 30 MK. However for SU 30 from what I read from several sources and media in here, TNI AU desired to have two seats high performance fighthers was already exist for a long time. In early 90's the Brits offer us Tornado IDS (before we settle with Hawks 100/200).
As far us i can gather, SU 27 SK supposedly in the end as F 5 Replacements, and potentials as F 16 replacements also. That's why in 2004 the then air force chief comments that they need at least 4 sq of both version of Flankers. When this will fullfill, that's still a guessing games in here.

Sturm,

Hawk 100 uses both as light attack and LIFT. But seems the emphasis more on Light Attack and not LIFT.

Our Flankers so far still using standard Russian avionics for SK,SK2 & MK, MK2. As far as I know the original flankers that we ordered back in 1996 (SU 30 K) was supposedly uses some Western Avionics, however I have'nt found any references whether this also done to our current Flankers. There some articles (unconfirmed though) that the SU 30 MK2 already have IFF system that can communicate to TNI AU western standard IFF.

No, the Puma & CN 235 using exocet as far as the sources in here says, was technological demo from Indonesian Aerospaces/PT DI. The Puma & CN 235 can be wired with exocet and DI already have the capabilities integrating the missiles. But no operational version has been made yet.

For Hawks, perhaps I have to go back to the back drop on their acquisitions. Back in 1990's TNI AU wants replacements for A-4. They have looked for several candidates including Tornado IDS (which deemed to high costs to maintain). From sources that I have read back in the 90's (remembered this was still Soeharto's era, so Information was much scarce), the then MInistry of Technology BJ Habibie push Bae Hawks, because the willingness of Bae to help DI (then IPTN) establishing Hawk 100/200 productions line. While at the same time the Air Force preferences was more F 16. However deteriorating political relationship due to East Timor, reduces our chances on Having more F 16, while the Brit's at that time still show willingness to provide us with Hawk 100/200. On darker side, the procurements on Hawks was done through Soeharto's children companies, which in the end push the acquisition of Hawks 100/200 as high as F 16 costs.
I put the underperformed, because the the requirements for the jobs (F 16 class fighters) clearly can not be done by Hawks 200. In sense they're underperformed, because the expectations for the job's to high to their specs.

Yes the TNI AU already show their expectations for more C 130. However we still can't afford for C 130 J, thus the choices was seconhand C 130 H. Facing on the options, seems the Air Force now turning on refurbishing existing C 130 B to C 130 H standard, and optimizing current C 130 H fleet to at least 90% readiness. If this can be done, then our operational C 130 will be back to the 30 aircraft fleet readiness.
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