This is a discussion on Indonesian Aero News within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by koxinga
Expensive waste of money. Is there even an export market for it and how many units ...
Expensive waste of money. Is there even an export market for it and how many units will TNI-AD buy? Even the Turks chose an existing platform for customization. PT DI barely got by with Government bailouts and a few lucky contracts and how they are daydreaming again? I hope they don't get too carried away thinking that they are 'special' strategic industry and will always get a bailout.
Well, if you see the design it's basically a Super Cobra with modification on undercarriage. The overall technical specs is basically the technical specs of Super Cobra. However I do agree with how much TNI-AD will buy, because building your own Attack Helicopter right now will only resulted with your own Army as sole buyer. Just like Rooivalk fate.
Some sources in DI says this attack Helicopter will have 70%+ communality with Bell-412 (which coincidentally is the similarity between Super Cobra and Bell-412). They believe they can push down the costs, since this will be build in the same assembly line of Bell 412 that they already have. They believe if this project got go ahead, they still only maintain 5 assembly line (CN-235/C-295. NC 212, N-219, AS332/AS532, and Bell-412), in which still under their current capacity thus not require additional large Investment.
Let see what happen, since if this project goes ahead, they have to got 'reasonable' agreement with Bell in first place. Because the design is after all a modification of Super Cobra.
Mock-up from DI Gandiwa Light Attack Helicopter project
Interesting project.If costs can be kept low,and being built with a 70% commonality with the bell-412,i would assume it would be a very good project for Indonesia to follow.If Bell assist with the program,it would take a great deal of risk out of the equation.
Interesting project.If costs can be kept low,and being built with a 70% commonality with the bell-412,i would assume it would be a very good project for Indonesia to follow.If Bell assist with the program,it would take a great deal of risk out of the equation.
How many LAH are Indonesia looking to purchase?
Is a new project that still long way to go. Bell assitance will definetely need. Well look at the design, is a 'Super Cobra' without skid. This poject come out I believe since there a lot of political presure right now for military procurement to involve local company. Eventhough DI says this is their design, but I simply do not believe DI can come out with a design that so much look alike with Super Cobra without Bell knowing.
How many LAH, well at most we're only talking about 2 sq. This based on previous communicate from the Army on their plan for Army Air wing until 2020.
Well basically the article put a questions from Parliement members, what kind of UAV that Philipines already build, and Indonesian Industry can't already build ? It's a sarcastic question since they all now that TNI-AU wants IAI Heron, and try so many ways to get Heron without directly deal with Israel. Just wonder if they want to get IAI stuff, why not picked some agent from Singapore, South Africa or India, and make it more believable ?
Well basically the article put a questions from Parliement members, what kind of UAV that Philipines already build, and Indonesian Industry can't already build ? It's a sarcastic question since they all now that TNI-AU wants IAI Heron, and try so many ways to get Heron without directly deal with Israel. Just wonder if they want to get IAI stuff, why not picked some agent from Singapore, South Africa or India, and make it more believable ?
Thanks for the link, i also dont understand TNI-AU wants the IAI Heron, ofcourse its a capable UAV, but there are more UAV producing countries in the world.
Thanks for the link, i also dont understand TNI-AU wants the IAI Heron, ofcourse its a capable UAV, but there are more UAV producing countries in the world.
TNI-AU wants MALE and HALE UAV, but more concerned to get MALE UAV soon. Heron is just one name being discussed but also Searcher and Hermes. Yes they also try to look from other suppliers including local ones. Local supplier like BPPT and DI UAV prototypes considered still need more development before can be use operationally by TNI-AU. The Israel products scored high on evaluations (and no surprises on that), but with Political considerations and sensitivity, they decided (if they want to get Israel UAV) to sourced it from third parties/agent.
That's why I say they should try to find agent from more 'believable' nation, in order to avoid questions. Choosing agent from Philippines is just show to obvious that the UAV actual origination is not from Philippines.
What is the latest in Indonesian fixed wing procurement?:
-F-16s
--24 upgraded F-16s being added from US inventory
--10 F-16B Block-15 OCUs also being upgraded
--all 34 F-16s expected to be upgraded and in service by the end of 2013
-6 new Sukhoi Su-30s on top of the 10 existing flankers, all expected to be in service by the end of 2013
-16 new KAI TA-50 Golden Eagle expected to be in service by the end of 2014
-50 KF-X [service date unknown, 2020s]
-20 new Grob G-120s [why adding a third type of turboprop?] expected to be fully in service by the end of 2014
-8 new Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano [not 16 I take it?] expected to all be in service by the end of 2012
-No new KAI KT-1 Wongbee beyond the 11 already in service
-4 Lockheed C-130 Hercules transferred from Australia by the end of 2013
-3 new CASA CN-235 by the end of 2012
-9 new CASA C-295 by the end of 2014
Any comments?
What is the latest on the KF-X? Is Turkey still in? What new Intellectual Property might be purchased for the plane? What combination of Indian/French Rafael Dassault IP, Eurofighter IP and F-16 IP is under consideration?
Look forward to learning a lot from Ananda, Sandhi Yudha, Feanor and everyone else.
What is the latest in Indonesian fixed wing procurement?:
-F-16s
--24 upgraded F-16s being added from US inventory
--10 F-16B Block-15 OCUs also being upgraded
--all 34 F-16s expected to be upgraded and in service by the end of 2013
-6 new Sukhoi Su-30s on top of the 10 existing flankers, all expected to be in service by the end of 2013
-16 new KAI TA-50 Golden Eagle expected to be in service by the end of 2014
-50 KF-X [service date unknown, 2020s]
-20 new Grob G-120s [why adding a third type of turboprop?] expected to be fully in service by the end of 2014
-8 new Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano [not 16 I take it?] expected to all be in service by the end of 2012
-No new KAI KT-1 Wongbee beyond the 11 already in service
-4 Lockheed C-130 Hercules transferred from Australia by the end of 2013
-3 new CASA CN-235 by the end of 2012
-9 new CASA C-295 by the end of 2014
That's about it. The Grob being purchased to replace AS 202 as 'preliminary' trainer. The Indonesian Air Force training regime consists of 3 level, Preliminary Trainer (AS 202 which will be replaced by Grob G-120), Basic Trainer (T-34C and KT-1, as T-34 C gradually will be phased out and replaced by all KT-1), and Advance Trainer/LIFT (Hawk Mk 53 which will be replaced by TA-50).
Since Hawk Mk 53 already in very 'sorry' conditions, some KT-1 take over the duty until TA-50 come. That's why the replacement program for T-34C will be done gradually. TNI-AU also used some ex-Singapore SF-260 that also can be used for 'preliminary' trainer, but last heard this mostly being used in Jakarta as 'refreshment' trainer for 'desk-job' pilots. Don't now the future plan for those SF-260.
KT-1 will be added, but some conflicting news on how much actually the final number will be (20 or 30). The Korean source indicated 20, but some 'unconfirmed' info in here talked about 30.
Super Tucano initial order is 8 but with option for another 8. Last info indicated the Option for another 8 already being contracted. By end 2012, the initial 8 scheduled to come, while final 8 will be 2014.
The existing 10 F-16A/B planned to be upgraded, but the contract still not decided (at least that I know of). The plan upgraded for existing F-16 A/B will be conducted with Turkey. While 24 F-16 C/D will be conducted in US. The operational scheduled for them will be 2013-2014.
KF-X is still a long way to go. Turkey so far say they want to go alone, but Korea still try to offered Turkey. Turkey wants the composition as 40% ROK, 40% Turkey, and 20% Indonesia. While ROK initial offered was 60% ROK, 20% Turkey, and 20% Indonesia. Final design scheduled to be completed by end 2012. By that time we can talk more on KF-X. KF-X still try to get agreement on 'technological' partner in which Eurofighter seems very close in talked with KAI and DI.
What still in mysteries is the plan for additional 3 sq. Since with all procurement the TNI-AU orbat still consists of 7 sq : 2 F-16, 2 Hawk 209/109, 1 Flankers, 1 Super Tucano, and 1 TA-50 (Lift considered as back-up Fighter in TNI-AU). So far the Min-Def still talked about requirement foe 10 fighter sq. Will have to wait and see.
A European consortium of four aerospace and defense companies will likely walk away from its promise of investing 20 percent of the cost for a Korea-initiated project to develop a new multirole fighter, industry sources said Thursday.
The European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company N.V. (EADS) reportedly made the pledge as Korea hinted that financial and technology contributions would favorably affect the separate selection of a foreign vender to supply 60 advanced fighter jets to Korea for 8.29 trillion won ($7.3 billion).
According to a 2011 report by Korea National Defense University, EADS expressed its intent to invest up to 20 percent or $1 billion into the KF-X program, a fighter development program.
An industry insider also confirmed that EADS had expressed it was willing to contribute as much as 20 percent of the development cost for the KF-X project to officials of the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA).
“EADS’s position was that it was willing to comply with DAPA’s request for KF-X investment, but it was deemed too early to comment on the possible import of KF-X fighters from European countries,” said the source familiar with EADS’s talks with DAPA over the FX-III project.
“But now EADS will likely backtrack on the pledge as DAPA made it clear that no incentive will be given in the FX-III race to a company committed to share the financial burden of the KF-X project.”
Well nothing it's free. EADS originally wants to involved with KF-X if ROKAF will take Eurofighter Typhoon as winner of FX-III. Since ROK DAPA won't provide that commitment/guarantee, then seems they will wait until who's going t o come out as winner on FX-III (at least that what I see it).
With this situation I think there are several possibilities left:
1. ROK has to come back to Turkey, and willing to give Equal share in the project (ROK before wants Turkey take position like Indonesia as Junior Partner in the Project). I believe what Turkey demands is make sense, since they can provide larger order for KF-X compare to Indonesia.
2. The design of KF-X has to be scales down, and modified from existing FA-50.
3. The project is abandoned all together.
In my opinion, if ROK can't persuade Turkey to join the project, then the second option (continue the project but with scaled down design/ambition) will be the choices. After all modifying FA-50 could still potentially provide something that can match Saab Gripen NG, and it provide good replacement for F-5/Mig-21/Mirage 3 users in the market.
Jakarta (ANTARA News) - Indonesia plans to buy eight helicopters "Apache" from the United States.
"I believe as many as eight units," said Deputy Defense Minister Sjafrie here on Thursday.
Sjafrie added, the procurement of eight aircraft types Apache unit was not just offered by the Americans to the government of Indonesia.
"Plan for the purchase of the aircraft number was done according to the needs of Indonesia. They do not offer, we are looking for," he said.
He admitted there is no agreement yet between the Government of Indonesia to the United States related to the purchase of eight units of "Apache".
Indonesian Deputy Min-def Sjafrie Sjamsudin confirmed the reporter that he's planning to negotiate with the US for 8 Apache Helicopter Gunship. From other sources, TNI-AD (Indonesian Army) now already has 5 Mi-35 Gunship (from planned 8). If this plan can get go ahead, seems the Army want to have a squadron of Hybrid Gunship of 8 Mi-35 and 8 Apache.
Personally I don't like the idea for Apache, it's too costly. Hearing from unconfirmed report (which is the local forum ), the Mindef actually also in contact with Russian for Mi-28 Havoc. Many believe this should be more appropriate since logistically it will be more easier for the Army that already operate Mi-35 and Mi-17.
The argument for Apache stated that this is a proven platform while the proven platform from Russia is only Mi-24/35. Thus the hybrid operation of Mi-35 and Apache will provide best result.
Well, we'll see. Perhaps if they really can get Apache, they can try to make the arrangement with Singapore for pooling logistics for more economics sourcing.
Personally I don't like the idea for Apache, it's too costly. Hearing from unconfirmed report (which is the local forum ), the Mindef actually also in contact with Russian for Mi-28 Havoc. Many believe this should be more appropriate since logistically it will be more easier for the Army that already operate Mi-35 and Mi-17.
The argument for Apache stated that this is a proven platform while the proven platform from Russia is only Mi-24/35. Thus the hybrid operation of Mi-35 and Apache will provide best result.
Well, we'll see. Perhaps if they really can get Apache, they can try to make the arrangement with Singapore for pooling logistics for more economics sourcing.[/QUOTE]
Indian Army uses Mi-25/Mi-35, and now has decided to procure 22 Apache, after evaluating them with Mi-28 and Tiger if I am not mistaken.
I wonder if the budget were enough, will the TNI buy weaponry like Indian military, a mix from Russia, Western Europe, Israel and US. Just like they mix Kilo and Type 209 for their navy.
That's about it. The Grob being purchased to replace AS 202 as 'preliminary' trainer. The Indonesian Air Force training regime consists of 3 level, Preliminary Trainer (AS 202 which will be replaced by Grob G-120), Basic Trainer (T-34C and KT-1, as T-34 C gradually will be phased out and replaced by all KT-1), and Advance Trainer/LIFT (Hawk Mk 53 which will be replaced by TA-50).
Since Hawk Mk 53 already in very 'sorry' conditions, some KT-1 take over the duty until TA-50 come. That's why the replacement program for T-34C will be done gradually. TNI-AU also used some ex-Singapore SF-260 that also can be used for 'preliminary' trainer, but last heard this mostly being used in Jakarta as 'refreshment' trainer for 'desk-job' pilots. Don't now the future plan for those SF-260.
KT-1 will be added, but some conflicting news on how much actually the final number will be (20 or 30). The Korean source indicated 20, but some 'unconfirmed' info in here talked about 30.
Super Tucano initial order is 8 but with option for another 8. Last info indicated the Option for another 8 already being contracted. By end 2012, the initial 8 scheduled to come, while final 8 will be 2014.
The existing 10 F-16A/B planned to be upgraded, but the contract still not decided (at least that I know of). The plan upgraded for existing F-16 A/B will be conducted with Turkey. While 24 F-16 C/D will be conducted in US. The operational scheduled for them will be 2013-2014.
KF-X is still a long way to go. Turkey so far say they want to go alone, but Korea still try to offered Turkey. Turkey wants the composition as 40% ROK, 40% Turkey, and 20% Indonesia. While ROK initial offered was 60% ROK, 20% Turkey, and 20% Indonesia. Final design scheduled to be completed by end 2012. By that time we can talk more on KF-X. KF-X still try to get agreement on 'technological' partner in which Eurofighter seems very close in talked with KAI and DI.
What still in mysteries is the plan for additional 3 sq. Since with all procurement the TNI-AU orbat still consists of 7 sq : 2 F-16, 2 Hawk 209/109, 1 Flankers, 1 Super Tucano, and 1 TA-50 (Lift considered as back-up Fighter in TNI-AU). So far the Min-Def still talked about requirement foe 10 fighter sq. Will have to wait and see.
Sorry Gadjah Mada, Ananda has already given a complete and correct overview, i cant ad more info.
BTW, Two Squadrons of F-16, that means the second squadron will be the F-5 unit (SkU 14)? I thought the F-5 will be replaced by the KF-X?
How will the F-16 be splitted between these 2 squadrons? SkU 3 the 10 upgraded ones and the 24 'new' ones to SkU 14? Or will it be splitted 50:50?
Well nothing it's free. EADS originally wants to involved with KF-X if ROKAF will take Eurofighter Typhoon as winner of FX-III. Since ROK DAPA won't provide that commitment/guarantee, then seems they will wait until who's going t o come out as winner on FX-III (at least that what I see it).
With this situation I think there are several possibilities left:
1. ROK has to come back to Turkey, and willing to give Equal share in the project (ROK before wants Turkey take position like Indonesia as Junior Partner in the Project). I believe what Turkey demands is make sense, since they can provide larger order for KF-X compare to Indonesia.
2. The design of KF-X has to be scales down, and modified from existing FA-50.
3. The project is abandoned all together.
In my opinion, if ROK can't persuade Turkey to join the project, then the second option (continue the project but with scaled down design/ambition) will be the choices. After all modifying FA-50 could still potentially provide something that can match Saab Gripen NG, and it provide good replacement for F-5/Mig-21/Mirage 3 users in the market.
An other option is maybe an involvement of Lockheed-Martin? 60% KAI, 20% L-M and 20% IPTN. Is something like that possible?
Oya, a question:
In November 2006, EADS signed an agreement with Indonesian Aerospace (IAe) to carry out the final assembly at facilities in Bandung and Indonesia. The facilities are capable of producing one C-212-400 a month.
The agreement was modified in 2008 to shift the entire C-212-400 production from Spain to Indonesia. The first firm order for IAe produced C212-400 was received from Airfast Indonesia in February 2009.
Its now 2012, but after 6 years not even one NC212-400 is build and delivered.....
How is this possible?
I wonder if the budget were enough, will the TNI buy weaponry like Indian military, a mix from Russia, Western Europe, Israel and US. Just like they mix Kilo and Type 209 for their navy.
I think the policy right now, is to not depend on one source so avoiding crippling the Armed Force in case of embargo. Also political pressure now quite strong that any procurement must be accompany with Tech Transfer agreement in some kind with local manufacturers. Off course it's the intention. Have to be seen if all new procurement will be conducted on that Principe.
Israel ? well : Israeli Defense Exports to Indonesia Green-lighted
According to that, Israel is keen to be Indonesia's defense supplier. However due to political sensitivity, it will create problem. Like the UAV : jurnas.com: Pesawat Intai Tanpa Awak Dikirim Tahun Ini
It's said the first detachment of UAV for the planed UAV squadron in Pontianak (Kalimantan) will be coming this year. The UAV is a MALE category originated from 'Philippines', even though everybody including the Parliament knows it's most likely from Israel (unless Philippines already produced proven MALE category UAV). In short Indonesia already sourcing some system from Israel for some time, but with political heating due to everybody jockeying their position for 2014 election, I honestly do not know if procurement from Israel will be conducted in future (at least up to election 2014).
Quote:
How will the F-16 be splitted between these 2 squadrons? SkU 3 the 10 upgraded ones and the 24 'new' ones to SkU 14? Or will it be splitted 50:50?
According to this (from Air Force site) : SKADRON UDARA 16 DIBANGUN DI LANUD PEKANBARU | Tentara Nasional Indonesia - Angkatan Udara
TNI-AU will build new squadron (Sq # 16) in Pekanbaru to be equipped with F-16. Thus the ex USAF F-16 seems will be put to enhanced Sq 3 (existing F-16) and new Sq 16. Pekanbaru then will have 2 sq (Sq 12; Hawk 209/109 and Sq 16; F-16). Sq 14 (F-5) perhaps will not get F-16. If this mean they will get new one or still keeping their F-5 will have to be seen. For one thing, so far besides ex USAF F-16, Additional Flankers, and TA-50 and Super Tucano, no additional procurement is plan (at least officially).
Quote:
Its now 2012, but after 6 years not even one NC212-400 is build and delivered.....How is this possible?
Well according DI, they got the agreement with Airbus to relocate C-212-400 manufacturing facilities to Bandung at 2009. The process took place from 2010 to end 2011. They already got order from local Airlines Airfast for 1, while there're also outstanding order of 12 C-212-400 from Thailand, in which 2 already send by Airbus, while the rest will be manufactured and send by DI.
So it has not been for 6 years, since the process from transferring the manufacturing facility from EADS San Pablo (ex Casa) site to DI Bandung site, just finished recently.
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), the Mindef actually also in contact with Russian for Mi-28 Havoc. Many believe this should be more appropriate since logistically it will be more easier for the Army that already operate Mi-35 and Mi-17.
