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Indonesian Aero News

This is a discussion on Indonesian Aero News within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Interesting discussion. Used F16s might be harder to come from since Iraq is insisting that the US transfer some from ...


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Old August 6th, 2009   #16
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Interesting discussion. Used F16s might be harder to come from since Iraq is insisting that the US transfer some from the USAF to them. Perhaps 96 in all.

It seems to me that Indonesia probably only needs a small quantity of air supremacy fighters and turboprop light attack aircraft (KT 1.) Why does it need more than that?

OPSSG, what are the operations costs of different aircraft?

My estimates on F16s for example (depreciating over 20 years):
-$5,000/hr * 210 hours/year = $1.1 annual million operations costs
-$70 million Acquisition cost + $30 million upgrade + initial munitions + initial spares costs = $100 million or $5 million a year.
-$100 million in other munitions = $5 million per year
-$50 million in upgrades + spares = $2.5 million per year
-$1.4 million per year in other unaccounted for costs
= $300 million total or $15 million per year

Is the above in the right ballpark? How do the F/A 50, SU 30, and turboprop aircraft (KT 1, Embraer Super Tucano A29, AT-6B) costs compare?
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Old August 6th, 2009   #17
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Interesting discussion.
Yes, it is interesting to look at how different countries spend their limited defence dollars to maximize their military capability.

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Used F16s might be harder to come from since Iraq is insisting that the US transfer some from the USAF to them. Perhaps 96 in all.
Sigh... I believe that US has a inventory of used F-16s and they have a contingency plan in case the JSF program is delayed. If I'm not wrong, the US established a program to earmark in FY 2000 some 200 older, F-16 fighter aircraft in inactive storage for potential reactivation. The purpose of this program was to provide a basis for constituting two combat wings more quickly than would be possible through new production.

I'm not current on actual USAF inactive inventory levels and their plans - perhaps another forum member would be kind enough to point you in the right direction. Alternatively, you can do a search of DT, the information on USAF early retirement plans was previously posted in other threads.

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It seems to me that Indonesia probably only needs a small quantity of air supremacy fighters and turboprop light attack aircraft (KT 1.) Why does it need more than that?
Please ask the Indonesian forum members on their point of view. I don't want to comment on your point of view, as there is a limit to my willingness to explain.

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Originally Posted by anan View Post
OPSSG, what are the operations costs of different aircraft?

My estimates on F16s for example (depreciating over 20 years):
-$5,000/hr * 210 hours/year = $1.1 annual million operations costs
-$70 million Acquisition cost + $30 million upgrade + initial munitions + initial spares costs = $100 million or $5 million a year.
-$100 million in other munitions = $5 million per year
-$50 million in upgrades + spares = $2.5 million per year
-$1.4 million per year in other unaccounted for costs
= $300 million total or $15 million per year

Is the above in the right ballpark?
I don't want to comment (via providing a figure) as it is too much trouble to explain why any figure cited can be totally wrong.

Kindly do some internet searches on USAF F-16 standards for Mission Capable Rates (MCRs) and operational deployment rates (DepTempo). Upon reading related articles of these sort, it would clear that any operations cost figures would be tempered by the respective DepTempo (or operations tempo) of different countries.

If you look at the Thai air force, they actually decommission 1 or 2 F-16s for cannibalization of parts (to keep their operating costs down). Different countries also face different threats (thereby having different operations tempo) and they also have different flying hours standards.

BTW, arms purchases and levels of war stocks vary depending on various geo-strategic considerations. Please keep the cost of the missiles and bombs as a separate line item from your maintenance numbers, as the numbers purchased for each F-16 (or such other aircraft) will vary greatly. To some extent this is threat and relationship based. For example, for Pakistan, their existential threat is India (and they don't trust that the US will supply them with more missiles in a pinch). Given the size of India's air force, the number of air to air missiles Pakistan would want to buy per plane is much more than that of Indonesia.

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Originally Posted by anan View Post
How do the F/A 50 and SU 30... costs compare?
I'm not very interested in the topic of maintenance costs and will not further reply on that topic. However, you should note that Russian planes (in the Su-30s and in PLAAF planes with Russian engines) have a relatively short Mean Time Between Failure rates (MBTF) compared to Western engines and have other serviceability problems. Read up on the MBTF of the engines of the fighters you are interested in.

If you are so inclined, have a look at the RMAF thread as they operate both Su-30MKMs and F-18Ds. Finally, see my prior comments here and here - sorry about not wanting to repeat them, as I don't want to be seen as bashing a particular air frame.

Last edited by OPSSG; August 7th, 2009 at 03:17 AM.
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Old August 7th, 2009   #18
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Hehe...i have somewere read that in the nineties our government had the plan to order 96 Hawks in total from UK...

->OPSSG: Also in our Airforce only the best ones will be placed in the F16 or Sukhoi squadron.

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It seems to me that Indonesia probably only needs a small quantity of air supremacy fighters and turboprop light attack aircraft (KT 1.) Why does it need more than that?
OUr country is the biggest archipelago of the world, some 5,5 square km, if you can cut Indonesia from the globe, you can put it above whole Europe.
So even if all of our fightersquadrons are equipped with the Su-30 (SkU 1,3,11,12 dan 14), its still not enough.
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Old August 7th, 2009   #19
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Interesting discussion. Used F16s might be harder to come from since Iraq is insisting that the US transfer some from the USAF to them. Perhaps 96 in all.

It seems to me that Indonesia probably only needs a small quantity of air supremacy fighters and turboprop light attack aircraft (KT 1.) Why does it need more than that?
Anan, this discussion is the 'Poor Man' scenarios on getting as much it can on a very limited budget. We spend 20% - 25% of Government budget (eq of USD 25 bio - 30 bio) on several subsidies ranging from food, fuel, energy, poverty alliniation, etc.. only left USD 3.5 bio for overall armed forces to operate and doing acquisitions and somehow the Air Force (which left less than 30% of that USD 3.5 bio) still managed conducting training and Patrol (even limited), in my book's is already quite miracelous.

The perceived threat scenarios' actually still debated now by government and parlements..thus on the issue of 'minimum deterences' needed also being talked.
How many fighters do we really need...?? Are we need more transport rather than Fighters..?? Do we really need Air Supremacy or just COIN and Bomb Trucks..??
Well, even with limited external threat scenarios perceived, Indonesia's from western tip to eastern end..has the simmilar range of US Continental West Coast to East Coast.

This requaired minimum patroling capabilities. The number of aircraft and sq's that' I've discussed with OPSSG in this thread, coming from our Air Force calculations on minimum partrol forces needed.
I'm not high on the need of Turboprop/COIN Fighters, simply because in my oppinion the job can be taken over by MI 35 that army acquairing.
Still the Air Force want's the COIN even the Army secretly wants the money for COIN to be switch for them on acquairing more MI 35 and MI 17.
Personally I suspected the Air Force insistance on getting COIN more as tools in budget rivalry with the Army and the Navy. Afterall, like other nations, the three branches of the Armed Forces continue having 'permanent' budget rivalry.

I'm not have extensive knowledge on Fighters operating costs, but I agree with OPSSG that several factors needed to be considered on operating costs comparisons. For me domestically the Air Forces and ministry of defences already agree that Operation costs of F 16 is much cheaper than SU 27/30.

Probably this one of the factor why the planned acquistion of Russian equipment now being reconsidered for switching. Rumours says that the ministry wants to increase acquisition from Russia on Land Equipments, and Anti Aircraft bateries, and reducing the acquisition on Russian Fighters or Naval Equipments due to operating costs considerations.

Quote:
"On air defence missions, the Hawk 200 can attain two hours on patrol 100nm from base when fitted with underwing fuel tanks. In a close air support role, the Hawk 200 has a radius of action of over 100nm. For the interdiction role, Hawk 200 can deliver 2,000lb of ordnance at a range of nearly 300nm when fitted with external fuel tanks. The range can be extended by air-to-air refuelling."
Sandhi Yudha, I've to admit my dislike to Hawk 200 related to my bias due to the way they acquired. However I'm still think those aircraft are not suitable for our need. But again like OPSSG say, those fighters already at hand, and has to be optimize.
I believe the air forces already doing fine job on optimising them. Still in my oppinion we do need to get rid of them as soon as possible.

OPSSG, no I haven't heard possible acquisitions on Flankers Simulators, the Air Forces had some talked with the Indian Air Forces on possible training there. Funny though, on why they're talking with Indian, since in my oppinion our Flankres are more comparables with the Chinese ones.

On the other hand, what I heard on Simmulators business that the Air Forces planned to upgrades the existing F 16 simulators, even getting another one.
Probable sign that F 16 more prefered than Flankers..???

Last edited by OPSSG; November 12th, 2010 at 02:48 AM. Reason: Fixed quote format
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Old August 7th, 2009   #20
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@Sandhi Yudha and Ananda, good posts both of you.

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Originally Posted by Sandhi Yudha
Our country is the biggest archipelago of the world, some 5,5 square km...
I think there is a small typo, Indonesia can't be 5.5 square km.

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Originally Posted by Ananda View Post
...I'm not have extensive knowledge on Fighters operating costs, but I agree with OPSSG that several factors needed to be considered on operating costs comparisons. For me domestically the Air Forces and the Ministry of Defence already agree that Operation costs of F 16 is much cheaper than SU 27/30.

Probably this one of the factor why the planned acquisition of Russian equipment now being reconsidered for switching...
(i) If anyone is really interested in the topic of F-16 operating and support costs, kindly take a look at this June 2006 NPS MBA thesis/report (which relates to Poland's F-16 purchase):
"Analysis and Forecasting of Operating and Support costs for F-16 C/D"
This is a useful starting point to acquaint yourself on the basic issues.

(ii) In the separate issue of missile costs, the latest purchases by Jordan, at US$131m for 85 AIM120C-7 missiles (or US$1.54m per AIM120C-7 missile) and S. Korea (55 AIM-9X missles, 12 training rounds and support equipment for US$41m) may be helpful in enabling those interested in calculating these costs.

[h/t to weasel1962 for the links to the latest missile costs]

Last edited by OPSSG; August 10th, 2009 at 11:31 PM.
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Old August 9th, 2009   #21
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@Sandhi Yudha and Ananda, good posts both of you.



I think there is a small typo, Indonesia can't be 5.5 square km.


]

Sorry i mean 5,5 million square km
Its including our territorial seas. Landmass only: 1,9 million
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Old August 20th, 2009   #22
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Does anybody know something about the status of the acquisition of the TD-2000B air defence system?
td2000b01dd0.jpg
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Old October 18th, 2009   #23
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They Still Want COIN

From Defesanet..Using Google translation:

Quote:
Indonesia buys eight jets Embraer Super Tucano Agreement between Brazil and the U.S. could open the U.S. market

Embraer has just closed the sale of eight jets Super Tucano aircraft of advanced training and light attack aircraft for the Air Force of Indonesia. The information was disclosed yesterday (15 Oct '09) by the Air Force commander, Brigadier Juniti Saito, certification event for the sub-orbital rocket VSB-30 and test engine sounding rocket VS-40, Department of Aerospace Science and Technology (DCTA) Sao Jose dos Campos.

Embraer, sought by value, said, through a spokesperson, would not comment on the transaction. With this new contract of sale, the third international supply of the Super Tucano in 2009, aircraft orders this year totaling 40 units. Sales of the model now totaling 177 units, of which 100 have been delivered, and 75 for the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) and 25 for Colombia.

The value of the contract with Indonesia was not disclosed, but the basic version of the Super Tucano costs about $ 10 million. The growth in sales of the Super Tucano should also increase the participation of defense in sales and CEO. In 2008, for example, the aircraft was responsible for more than half of exports of this segment of the company, which amounted to U $ 504 million.
Well I haven't been able to get confirmation yet on this matter in here, since eventhough the airforce wants COIN replacement for OV 10 for sometime and already submit Super Tucano as the prefered candidates, but some noises in defense ministries admiited the South Korean still want to pursue hard with KO-1.

Anyway, personally I still hold my oppinion that buying another sq's for COIN relacement is not really smart move for our situations. It will again put our relative small air forces in logistics trap with more than aircraft types it can really maintain optimally. If the airforce really want COIN (wasted resources I'm still say with the Army already have MI-35), then KO-1 with 80% commonality with KT-1 should be the choices.

But let see if any confirmation come out from here.

Last edited by Ananda; October 18th, 2009 at 06:42 AM.
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Old October 18th, 2009   #24
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Updated on Indonesian Local UAV program

From Antara, Using Google translation:
"Puna" Terrorist Surveillance Aircraft Operated By 2010

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Tangerang (ANTARA News) - Agency for the Assessment and Application of Technology (BPPT) in 2010, immediately operate the aircraft crew or mini-nir "Puna" as a supporter of national defense and security and terrorist surveillance.

Minister for Research and Technology (Research and Technology) Kusmayanto Kadiman in Tangerang, Banten, Saturday, saying, BPPT has researched and successfully developed Puna as a reconnaissance aircraft of the air of what is happening on land and sea.

He said, Puna will be used by the military and police personnel to Indonesia in the infiltration of activities in conflict-prone areas.

"Puna also conduct surveillance of terrorists who were hiding in inaccessible locations," said Puna Menristek.Pesawat miniature camera is also equipped to photograph events on the ground and report to stakeholders as evidence.

Research and Technology said the aircraft Puna is currently in final stages of manufacturing process and will be operated in 2010.

"We want to show researchers aircraft made Puna Indonesia could be used as a supporter of national security, so it must not be purchased from abroad," said Research and Technology.

Meanwhile, Director of Technology Center for Defense and Security Industry BPPT, Joko Purwono said, Puna can reach a height in the air up to 120 kilometers (km).

Puna is an aircraft equipped with surveillance cameras otonomos and not controlled through the remote.

Joko added, Puna has a body length of four meters and seven meters long with a wing reach a sufficient height above the air.

"Puna aircraft will be produced next year by PT Dirgantara Indonesia (DI), for the moment the plane was in the process of completion," said Joko.

In addition, said Joko BPPT has also developed two miniature reconnaissance aircraft other types of aircraft Swallow weighing 10 kilograms (kg) and reconnaissance aircraft called Alap-Alap weighing 25 kg, to monitor Indonesia's marine waters. (*)
Bellow the image of Puna UAV, from defense-studies blogspot.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_En-sxfOkXP...se+Studies.JPG

Not much info other than this one, on the specific result of the test. I put the bold on the autonomous claim, since it's quite a leap for Indonesia UAV. All the local UAV before still controlled by remote piloting. Still not really much info on 'how autonomous' the claim really mean.
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Old October 19th, 2009   #25
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From Defesanet..Using Google translation:



Well I haven't been able to get confirmation yet on this matter in here, since eventhough the airforce wants COIN replacement for OV 10 for sometime and already submit Super Tucano as the prefered candidates, but some noises in defense ministries admiited the South Korean still want to pursue hard with KO-1.

Anyway, personally I still hold my oppinion that buying another sq's for COIN relacement is not really smart move for our situations. It will again put our relative small air forces in logistics trap with more than aircraft types it can really maintain optimally. If the airforce really want COIN (wasted resources I'm still say with the Army already have MI-35), then KO-1 with 80% commonality with KT-1 should be the choices.

But let see if any confirmation come out from here.
Im 100% agree with you. Its waste of our money. Why would we need a fixed wing COIN AIRCRAFT? And if we need them now, Some extra Mi-35P or as you said KO-1 would be better....
Mendingan we use the budget for the maintenance of our existing fleet, for spareparts and weapons, so all our airplanes are operationable and usable for their role.



http://94.100.114.197/762950001-7630...37_5_E2k0.jpeg
This picture is taken from far away, but you can see a new CN235-220.
Maybe its for South-Korea's order for 4 aircraft, but maybe its for our own airforce. On the body of the aircraft the code beginning with AX-23.. is visible...
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Old October 20th, 2009   #26
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This picture is taken from far away, but you can see a new CN235-220.
Maybe its for South-Korea's order for 4 aircraft, but maybe its for our own airforce. On the body of the aircraft the code beginning with AX-23.. is visible...
According to publish work load from DI/IPTN, the schedulled delivery and existing CN 235 on the facility should go to South Korea. Anyway the colour scheme seems not the one being used by our Air Force or Naval Air Wing.
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Old October 23rd, 2009   #27
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@OPSSG T50 looks great indeed let's see what it comes with in "the real world"
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Old November 8th, 2009   #28
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@OPSSG T50 looks great indeed let's see what it comes with in "the real world"
Sorry for the late reply (I've been kind of tied up and my schedule is looking worse over time). Yes, we'll find out more once the T-50 makes its first export sales. Here's some recent Raytheon news related to the Korean aircraft.

Last edited by OPSSG; November 8th, 2009 at 10:07 PM.
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Old November 13th, 2009   #29
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Sorry for the late reply (I've been kind of tied up and my schedule is looking worse over time). Yes, we'll find out more once the T-50 makes its first export sales. Here's some recent Raytheon news related to the Korean aircraft.
Thanks, interesting article. But i dont think the US is willing to sell such a high-tech radar as a AESA to an islamic brown non-Western/white/NATO country, specially to Indonesia.
But an AESA makes the F/A-50 an even more capable LIFT/ F-16 replacement.
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Old November 14th, 2009   #30
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The USA has sold 60 F-16E to the UAE. The F-16E (also known as F-16 Block 60) has the APG-80 AESA radar. The F-16E & F-18E (the latter with APG-79 AESA) are being offered to India.

BTW, the F/A-50 would be for sale with the British Selex Vixen 500E AESA radar by now, if Lockheed Martin & the US government hadn't objected. The contract under which LM assisted in T-50 development allowed them to block it.
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