Hawk deal seal after 20 years

The Watcher

New Member
so finally it goes through.

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Hawk deal seal after 20 years
Last-minute bargaining over price of tools

New Delhi, March 19: India today signed the Rs 6,600-crore deal for supply of 66 Hawk advanced jet trainers after negotiating for nearly 20 years.

Defence secretary Ajay Prasad and British high commissioner Michael Arthur signed the MoU for “effective and uninterrupted implementation of the contracts†for acquiring the Hawk 115-Y trainers at South Block this afternoon.

The actual deal between the defence ministry, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and British Aerospace Systems (BAe) and other manufacturers will, however, be signed next week.

Over the past fortnight, defence ministry officials and a BAe team had been holding talks to thrash out last-minute glitches. While the British company was demanding £25 million for the 20,000 tools needed for manufacture and maintenance of the AJT, Prasad did not agree. The company later consented to lower the price.

There were differences also over the supply of tools. While the British company said it would hand over only complicated tools — leaving the simpler ones to be manufactured indigenously — the defence ministry disagreed because it felt this would delay the project.

“I am happy with the cooperation and understanding extended by the British government and British Aerospace and the issue has been resolved to the mutual satisfaction of both sides,†Prasad told reporters.

For years, the Indian Air Force has been demanding AJTs to train pilots on supersonic fighter aircraft. As of now, its pilots are trained on the sub-sonic Kiran, also used for aerobatics. Advance training is given on the MiG-21.

Arthur dubbed the deal a “significant step†and said it would lead to “deeper and wider mutually-beneficial interaction between the industries of the two countriesâ€.

As part of the contract, the Royal Air Force will train 75 Indian pilots along with their own pilots to fly Hawks. The engines for the trainers will be provided by Rolls Royce.

“The Hawk contract will also constitute towards creating and sustaining highly-skilled jobs here in India and in the UK and will further extend the successful industrial collaboration between our two countries in the defence, aerospace and engineering sectors,†Arthur said.

Prasad said Britain had assured it would ensure product supply in due time.
source
 

cheenum

New Member
The Advent of the Hawk into IAF will go a long way in taining IAF pilots to world standards. This will bridge the so called EDGE PAF has over IAF in terms of their Pilot's "Superior Skills".
Another (not talked about spinoff) is the reduced attrition of IAF's MIG fleet which has been used as a trainer till now. (MIG 21 is the mainstream Supersonic trainer in IAF leading to many fatalities during training that it has been dubbed the "Flying Coffin")

When the Hawk is eventually being manufactured in HAL in Bangalore, Indian manfacturers will gain a lot from the technology got from BAE which may/WILL be used to bridge gaps in LCA design !!!
 

mysterious

New Member
I agree that more advanced jet trainers will help lift IAF pilot skills but c'mon! lets be realistic about it. IAF has not been able to match the pilot training of PAF in 57 years!! In PAF, its never about a jet trainer, its about how much you refine the pilot from DAY 1 till the very last day of his course! I think you need to do some research about PAF training schools like the one at Risalpur and elsewhere; and you will get to know that a lot of foreign airforce chiefs and observers have been struck by shock and awe after seeing the strict as well as extremely high training levels of the PAF pilots. Its just 'waaaayyy' to difficult to become a PAF pilot 'cuz you hafta be the best of the best of the best! :smokingc:
 

cheenum

New Member
The ability of a Airforce pilot is a factor of many things, inherent ability is no doubt a factor (for any activity for that matter). Other factors like the equipment / tool being used, practice, training play a crucial role.

In the case of IAF pilots all these factors score low, unlike in Pakistan, the creme-de-la-creme of Indian Youth DO NOT go into the armed forces, they prefer greener pastures like medicine or Engineering.

IAf has always been lacking a advance trainer (this covers equipment, practice and training). but inspite of all these constaints, the IAF has been able to emerge a force to reckon with.
 

CSS

New Member
Hi,

Just wonder, is it viable for India to pursue the project for it takes them 20 years to come with the decision? Or maybe because of the technology leap that really force India to continue knowing the Russian tech (IAF main supplier) still lacking in certain aspects especially on jet trainer?

Any ideas?? :?

One more question, in the agreement do BAE allowed India to market and produce Hawk for other customer?? If that so, the cost might be competitive. Hawk is a good design and many countries really want to upgrade their training capability and this provide good opportunity for India.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
CSS said:
Hi,

Just wonder, is it viable for India to pursue the project for it takes them 20 years to come with the decision? Or maybe because of the technology leap that really force India to continue knowing the Russian tech (IAF main supplier) still lacking in certain aspects especially on jet trainer?

Any ideas?? :?

One more question, in the agreement do BAE allowed India to market and produce Hawk for other customer?? If that so, the cost might be competitive. Hawk is a good design and many countries really want to upgrade their training capability and this provide good opportunity for India.
Personally, I'd go with the Hawk, its a proven design, it can also be glassed up to emulate a tier 1 fighter etc. I'm not a great fan of russian aircraft due to their poor maintenance and support history - don't get me wrong, the Mig 29's, Su-27's Su-3X-nn's are more than capable. But I have a severe doubt as to their robustness and the logistics train required to support them in a high tempo conflict. India has already experienced problems with logistics and spares, as has China.

AFAIK the Hawk is only a license build for a local fleet contract. The Mig AJT would be easier from a software porting and weapons railing issue, but the Hawk is a proven concept and is in service for numerous customers already.
It has also been ported for different weapons systems - so its not as if India has to reinvent the wheel.
 

umair

Peace Enforcer
Cheenum when myst said"best of the best" he meant the extremely high pilot cadet deletion rate in the PAF(higher than USAF and IDF/AF).
Results being that only the most and I repeat THE MOST suitable guys turnout as GDPs.
Add to that the fact that PAF pilots log the second highest annual flight training hours per pilot in the world(I posted these numbers in a thread here somewhere, go search) and u have on u'r hands a highly well trained highly motivated airforce.
An article written by an Israeli analyst(the guy goes by the name of Carl "something"(forgotten) Stien) gives the gist of why PAF & IDF/AF pilots will go to any length to complete their mission.He says that since both countries are theological states created for people adhering to specific beliefs, the pilots feel as if they are not merely defending their homeland but also their religion their beliefs and are therefore more agressive more forceful than their adversaries.It's basically this feeling of being responsible for the defense of their beliefs is what drives both these forces pilots to the break all limits in order to ensure that the mission goes through, even if it means the supreme sacrifice.
Anybody who visits p d f and knows mandrake(the Israeli) will know that it was he who first mentioned the article which's gist is given above.
Oh and cheenum see the thread mentioned below(P.S sorry for the hijack guys)
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=719
 

amit21mech

New Member
May be PAF is best in training but does not u know that equipments and logistics also play very important part in case of an Air Force operation( like in war). PAF seriously need better crafts and logistics( E/W, AWACS etc etc) to bridge the gap between her and rivals.

One more thing which has always haunted Pakistan is the inter services operations in case of war.In 1971 when Indian Navy's Orsa boats were pounding Karachi the PAF didn't came to rescue PN. Later it was learned that PAF chief told his subordinates "Let Navy fight her own battle".
This is very disgusting. If PAF had helped PN than Karachi might have been secured.
I want Pakistani version this.
 

mysterious

New Member
I suppose you dont read any other history books than by Indian sources. Please check some unbiased sources and you will see WHO was pounding WHO in 1971!! Sure India had an 'almost' walkover in Bangladesh but even then PAF's 'one' Squadron held its airspace for two weeks against 10 Squadrons (I think I'm right about the number) of the IAF and was only taken out as the only airfield in East Pakistan was destroyed! :smokingc:
 

mysterious

New Member
LOL! :D Were those links suppose to make you happy or me happy? I respect the Defence Journal accounts as they are quite true in the sense that people who are actually in the military business give their accounts! This report in the defence journal does say that over all the PN was weaker than the Indian Navy and I can say that it is the same today as well but you see, courage is what drives Pakistani forces and not their equipment! Please read the account carefully to see how ONE submarine PNS GHAZI kept Indian warships at bay. It was the unfortunate ending of the Ghazi that allowed the Indians to build up some morale and then do something about the PN. :smokingc:
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Lets get back to the topic, which is an aviation issue. If there needs to be a continuing discussion on naval issues then start a topic in Naval.

Thanks folks
 

Salman78

New Member
Too little , too late...

"india is to retire 70 of its Mig-21FL's by next year. This was said by Indian air chief marshal srinivaspuram khrishnaswarmy at a training commanders conference at the IAF training command headquaters in banglore. He also noted that the requirement for jet trainers was more urgent then combat jets"

sourse is airforces monthly magazine, july 2004

so by the time (2006 onwards) hawk starts entering service, a lot of pilot killer migs would have been phased out.
 
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