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colay November 16th, 2012 10:56 PM

Gaza Air Campaign
 
Very little information is forthcoming from,on how the Israeli Air Force is conducting the air campaign against Hamas. Media reports suggest that the IAF has been very busy in an attempt to destroy rockets on the ground but unlike the performance,of Iron Dome which has been receiving most of the attention very little has been revealed how manned and unmanned assets are being utilized.

Israel is massing it's land forces, likely as a prelude to a major incursion into Gaza as boots on the ground,seem to offer the best chance of mitigating the rocket threat and damaging the enemy infrastructure.

This would seem to be paralleling the campaign against Hezbollah. If so, it will be interesting to observe what lessons have been learned,and how these may be applied to the current situation.

Abraham Gubler November 16th, 2012 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colay (Post 255444)
This would seem to be paralleling the campaign against Hezbollah. If so, it will be interesting to observe what lessons have been learned,and how these may be applied to the current situation.

It’s nothing like the 2006 War in Lebanon, however it is a lot like the 2008-09 Operation Cast Lead when Israel launched an attack on Gaza to stop Hamas rocket barrages.

surpreme November 17th, 2012 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colay (Post 255444)
Very little information is forthcoming from,on how the Israeli Air Force is conducting the air campaign against Hamas. Media reports suggest that the IAF has been very busy in an attempt to destroy rockets on the ground but unlike the performance,of Iron Dome which has been receiving most of the attention very little has been revealed how manned and unmanned assets are being utilized.

Israel is massing it's land forces, likely as a prelude to a major incursion into Gaza as boots on the ground,seem to offer the best chance of mitigating the rocket threat and damaging the enemy infrastructure.

This would seem to be paralleling the campaign against Hezbollah. If so, it will be interesting to observe what lessons have been learned,and how these may be applied to the current situation.

When Israelis made a incursion in Gaza Strip in 2008 it used some good urban tactic. After observing the Ist fight in Gaza the Israelis used what it had learned from 2006 war. The Hezbollah is a different force than Hamas, Hezbollah has done more training and adapted to the Israelis more than Hamas. The IaF is using the same air campaign from 2008 destroying rockets nothing new about that. The Israelis has unidentified help on the ground not including the unmanned droves to which to draw where the rocket are coming from. The Israelis are well trained and capable of handle the Hamas militants. The Israelis text civilian that a strike in the area was coming. If Hamas continue to fire rocket and Israelis decided to go in Gazas what tactic will Hamas militants use ?

colay November 17th, 2012 07:03 PM

Hamas has reportedly managed to shoot down an Israeli F-16 which is quite an achievement. Media analysts are also,speculating that they will be able to put up a tougher ground fight this time around, citing more advanced weapons e.g. ATGMs and better training with assistance from Iran. Any fighting will be in a heavily populated urban setting so things are going to be messy.

SpudmanWP November 17th, 2012 07:50 PM

The "news" came from an Iranian news agency = no credibility.

colay November 17th, 2012 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpudmanWP (Post 255481)
The "news" came from an Iranian news agency = no credibility.

Yes SWP, as no major media agency carry the story it is likely propaganda.

At the end of the day, Israel will stop the rockets, the only thing to be decided is how much a price each side will pay for it.
http://www.rferl.org/content/israel-.../24773628.html

Volkodav November 17th, 2012 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colay (Post 255483)
Yes SWP, as no major media agency carry the story it is likely propaganda.

At the end of the day, Israel will stop the rockets, the only thing to be decided is how much a price each side will pay for it.
Israel Faces Stronger Hamas As Fears Loom Of New Gaza War

I still remember the footage of the sinking of ex-HMAS Torrens during a demonstration test of a Mk-48 heavy weight torpedo being used as proof that Hezbollah had sunk an Israeli corvette. We can probably expect to see some footage from “Topgun” showing up any time now.

Abraham Gubler November 17th, 2012 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volkodav (Post 255484)
I still remember the footage of the sinking of ex-HMAS Torrens during a demonstration test of a Mk-48 heavy weight torpedo being used as proof that Hezbollah had sunk an Israeli corvette. We can probably expect to see some footage from “Topgun” showing up any time now.

Hamas have actually been using that same footage this time round to claim they have sunk an Israeli navy ship.

The F-16 claim is total bogus and is only been reported on Iranian news and RT which is pretty conclusive that it is false. To support their claim Hamas have released footage of someone firing a SA-7 from under a tree. No sign of missile impact. Its very doubtful that IDF F-16s are flying low enough to even be within range of a MANPADS lke SA-7.

Abraham Gubler November 17th, 2012 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colay (Post 255479)
Media analysts are also,speculating that they will be able to put up a tougher ground fight this time around, citing more advanced weapons e.g. ATGMs and better training with assistance from Iran. Any fighting will be in a heavily populated urban setting so things are going to be messy.

“Media analysts”, ”speculating”, LOL.

Hamas had ATGMs in large numbers for the 2008-09 Cast Lead battle. However the IDF countered them with wide spread use of smoke screens (White Phos). This time round they still have the smoke screens but also “Trophy” active protection systems. Any Hamas ATGM gunners are going to get wiped out.

I guess predicting impending doom for Hamas doesn’t sell as many TV hours as vice versa.

Volkodav November 17th, 2012 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abraham Gubler (Post 255487)
“Media analysts”, ”speculating”, LOL.

Hamas had ATGMs in large numbers for the 2008-09 Cast Lead battle. However the IDF countered them with wide spread use of smoke screens (White Phos). This time round they still have the smoke screens but also “Trophy” active protection systems. Any Hamas ATGM gunners are going to get wiped out.

I guess predicting impending doom for Hamas doesn’t sell as many TV hours as vice versa.

The whole thing is ridiculous, claiming to be the victim while launching rocket after rocket at civilians and claiming to have sunk ships and shot down aircraft, being caught out faking casualties. When will they realise that if they want peace all they need to do is leave Israel alone? If you poke (even a placid dog) with a stick often enough it will bite you and Israel, while more tolerant that many have expected, is far from placid.

Having done a little reading on the history of the region I get the impression the issue is not specifically the Jews or the West or even religion or politics, but rather a general dissatisfaction with who ever is seen o be an “oppressor” or “outsider” at the time. When there is no external or other party to rail against and attack then a neighbour will do. It almost strikes me as an extreme form of boganism, which transcends race and religion. Nothing but a lazy, good for nothing, minority wrecking the futures of their friends, family and neighbours, being egged on by more powerful / fortunate individuals and groups to further their own agendas.

Rant over.

STURM November 18th, 2012 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volkodav (Post 255489)
The whole thing is ridiculous, claiming to be the victim while launching rocket after rocket at civilians and claiming to have sunk ships and shot down aircraft, being caught out faking casualties.

What's new?? Outright lies, one sided propaganda, misreporting, the breaking of cease fires - it has not been confined to one side as both sides have done it over the past few decades. If only we could shift all the blame solely on one side then things would be much more simple but unfortunately the Middle East is not as clear cut as that.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volkodav (Post 255489)
When will they realise that if they want peace all they need to do is leave Israel alone? If you poke (even a placid dog) with a stick often enough it will bite you and Israel, while more tolerant that many have expected, is far from placid.
.

Since you've been reading about the Middle East, you'll no doubt be aware that things are very complex and that both sides have a hand in the whole mess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volkodav (Post 255489)
Having done a little reading on the history of the region I get the impression the issue is not specifically the Jews or the West or even religion or politics, but rather a general dissatisfaction with who ever is seen o be an “oppressor” or “outsider” at the time.

The issue is about land - the fact that the peace process is dead and that chances of a two state solution are getting slimmer every day. We can talk about it all we want and debate or argue but until there is a lasting 'peace process' that is put in place, there will be no peace, irrespective of how many times Israel goes into Gaza, how well trained the IDF is and what new gadgets it has, how many targets the ISAF hits and how many terrorists/militants/rebels/ extremists are killed.

Abraham Gubler November 18th, 2012 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STURM (Post 255491)
If only it were a simple or as one sided as that. Since you've been reading about the Middle East, you'll no doubt be aware that things are very complex and that both sides have a hand in the whole mess.

And those complexities have complexities. But from the UN vote on partition through to today the Arab side has consistently rejected peace. Because they still believe in the military solution of destroying Israel. Everything else is just decoration around the side. There will be an Arab-Israeli peace as soon as the Arabs give up on the ambition of destroying Israel.

Even today Hamas says they will only agree to a cease fire if Israel lifts the blockade on Gaza. But the blockade’s only effect is to limit Hamas’s weapons program. There is no shortage of food, medicine, etc in Gaza. Arafat could have had a two state solution back in 2000-01 with 98% of the ’67 territory and an equal swap of land from Israel for the other 2%. Plus a huge Saudi financial scheme. But they turned it down for another go at destroying Israel.

STURM November 18th, 2012 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abraham Gubler (Post 255494)
And those complexities have complexities. But from the UN vote on partition through to today the Arab side has consistently rejected peace. Because they still believe in the military solution of destroying Israel. Everything else is just decoration around the side. There will be an Arab-Israeli peace as soon as the Arabs give up on the ambition of destroying Israel.

Abe, you make it sound like it is solely due to the Arabs that there is no current peace process in place. In the 1970's the Palestinians did try to make peace but this was a period when Israel refused to negotiate at all as it was hoping that the Palestinian problem would just go way but it didn't. The peace process is currently dead as a door nail not because the Arabs have ambitions to destroy Israel but because Israel continues to build settlements on land that it doesn't own and illegally occupies and due to the fact that Hamas and Fatah can't seem to agree on most things. Israel has to choose whether it wants land or whether it wants peace it can't have both - and the Palestinians need to get their house in order. What Arab states today want to 'destroy' Israel - it's not 1948 or 1967 anymore. The Arab states are more concerned about regime survival, keeping their citizen's in check and safeguarding their wealth. Arab states like Saudi and Jordan are more concerned and insecure about other Arab states than they are with Israel - and it has been this way for a long time.

surpreme November 18th, 2012 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abraham Gubler (Post 255487)
“Media analysts”, ”speculating”, LOL.

Hamas had ATGMs in large numbers for the 2008-09 Cast Lead battle. However the IDF countered them with wide spread use of smoke screens (White Phos). This time round they still have the smoke screens but also “Trophy” active protection systems. Any Hamas ATGM gunners are going to get wiped out.

I guess predicting impending doom for Hamas doesn’t sell as many TV hours as vice versa.

The ATGM if they received any from the Arab spring revolt could be advanced than what they had in 2008. The Egyptian open the border one time some skilled fighter could have made it in Gaza that could have major effect on how they fight this time. Hamas military wing is getting ready to be destroyed. Hamas probably already went underground knowing that Gaza invasion is underway. The only ones that will fight are die heart fighter. Only Israel invasion will tell if skill fighter entered Gaza. So many weapon got out in Libya that no one know if some got to Gaza. The air campaign is taken a toll on Hamas it not a good time being a Hamas member having to watch your every step.

STURM November 18th, 2012 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by surpreme (Post 255498)
The ATGM if they received any from the Arab spring revolt could be advanced than what they had in 2008.

Irrespective of how 'advanced' the ATGMs are, it will certainly not be a game changer and Hamas will not be able to stop the Israeli's.The Israeli's have taken into account that Hamas may have received new 'toy's and have planned accordingly.


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